Originally posted by Will: So I understand from what you said that the '00+ reluctor wheel is the same as the LS1 reluctor wheel. Does the Northstar continue to use two crank sensors to synch faster? The positions of the crank sensors were tweaked slightly for '00. Do you know why that was done? For example, was it to make the "reference angle" variable the same between the two engines?
The reluctor wheel is not the same, nor the sensors that read it... however, the patterns look to be similar, if not the same. The LS1 24x reluctor is a pressed-together pair of opposite wheels. The 2000+ N* reluctor wheel is machined with simple highs and lows. I measured both patterns with a caliper and generated a spreadsheet... they matched, the 24x reluctor wheel that I have, in the opposites with the high/low patterns on the late N* crank. What I don't know is if they align on the same TDC or not; I would suspect that they do, but haven't gotten a chance to verify yet. I also haven't gotten a battery to spin the N* on my engine stand to scope the reluctor signals out yet.
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Originally posted by Will: If I put the '00-'04 crank into my engine, would I be able to run it with the 0411 and LS1 program (and just tweak whatever amounts to a crank reference angle)? That would upgrade me from DIS to coil/cylinder, but I'm just curious as I'm not about to change crankshafts for that relatively small benefit.
That would only work if a few things worked out... 1, the primary crank sensor was in the same place on both motors, 2 the updated sensor fit in the same hole and mounted up and 3 if you swapped the cam gear and sensor to the later models... the early N* cam gear is a single point blip, whereas the later cam gear is a 50% on/off (pictures if you like).
I am going to try to use my 0411 to run both styles of engine, depending on which tune gets flashed into it. Finances have things on hold for me these days, though I'll probably make a trip out to the junkyard soon to pick up a cheap battery to at least scope out reluctor patterns with. Unless someone has a late N* crank that they want to machine the reluctor from and mail it to me.
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01:34 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
That would only work if a few things worked out... 1, the primary crank sensor was in the same place on both motors, 2 the updated sensor fit in the same hole and mounted up and 3 if you swapped the cam gear and sensor to the later models... the early N* cam gear is a single point blip, whereas the later cam gear is a 50% on/off (pictures if you like).
I am going to try to use my 0411 to run both styles of engine, depending on which tune gets flashed into it. Finances have things on hold for me these days, though I'll probably make a trip out to the junkyard soon to pick up a cheap battery to at least scope out reluctor patterns with. Unless someone has a late N* crank that they want to machine the reluctor from and mail it to me.
Thanks for the info on the trigger wheel.
I'm familiar with the Y2K engines... I just haven't taken apart anything as new as '05. The late crank in the early block should work with either a tweak to the reference angle in the PCM (if there is such a variable in the LS1 program) or by doing a block adjustment of the entire timing table to compensate for the difference in crank sensor location (only 2 degrees or so).
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-01-2010).]
Hope your learning curve is shallower than mine was...
No doubt! Everything I learned about reasons not to rebuild a Northstar, I learned from you, Will. From what I've learned of the Northstar, inserts and head gaskets are about as far as I'd go into one. If anything in the bottom end rotating assembly is screwed up, it looks like the best method of repair is replacement. As cheap as these engines are used, it's hard to justify anything otherwise (on a cost basis).
I'm still curious to see how the over-complicated rebuild turns out in the long run...but probably not nearly as curious as Will.
Bryce
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11:29 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The biggest of course is getting the hone job right on the ridiculously hard iron in the bore liners. The next is installing threaded inserts. I went for head bolts AND main bolts, of course. Rod bearings are $20 each. Odd bore size means it's hard to get top shelf piston rings. Case halves don't seal with the factory seals, just oodles of anaerobic goo. Must stretch rod bolts BEFORE installing lower crank case. Some subsets of engine components were changed together, but not all subsets changed in the same year. Valve cover gaskets for '99 and older engines are hard to get. Once they swell up they are non-reusable. Stainless fuel rails. Harmonic balancer bolt size changed. Bolt must match crankshaft of course. Nobody makes 8mm flywheel bolts.
etc. etc.
I'm just curious about really driving the thing...
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04:48 PM
May 3rd, 2010
ALLTRBO Member
Posts: 2023 From: College Park, MD Registered: Mar 2006
I just told him to order (much) lower compression pistons and slap a huge single turbo on there with a '730 ECU and make 600hp without even blinking, but he wants to do things the hard way. (He really is an engineer in mindset and by trade. I'm just a power junkie with a lesser engineering mindset, heh)
It connects to the computer, and has several analog and digital inputs. It's kind of a user-programmable generic thing. Once the data is recorded, it can be further processed/analyzed, and put into a spreadsheet.
I have no idea what the cost is though. Probably $$$.
Or, you could just run it for a fixed amount of time (like a week), and see how many times the RPM switch gets triggered with the counter to determine the cycle time...
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 05-13-2010).]
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02:03 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
Injector pickup didn't go as planned. The shop hadn't received them back from the shop he sent them to. He had expected them back as well. He called and was told that only 3 of the injectors worked correctly, 3 were dead and 2 were intermittent. He sent me this info via email. I haven't spoken to him directly about it yet.
I KNOW my dad and I had all 8 of those working on the bench last year. I also know that there's no way the engine had a dead miss on three cylinders when I had it running. We blew out the varnish when I got it running last year, and it sat all year with race gas in the fuel rail, so the injector shouldn't be *that* gunked up... but maybe they could. It almost sounds like the injectors are stuck and the guy checked them by hitting them with +12 once and didn't try anything else. Now I didn't check their operation pressurized, so there may be problems I didn't find, but I *KNOW* they all operated.
Anyway... won't solve anything until I get my shop on the phone Monday. In the mean time I left another set of injectors on his doorstep.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-31-2010).]
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11:58 PM
Aug 1st, 2010
IXSLR8 Member
Posts: 674 From: Post Falls, ID, USA Registered: Sep 2004
I was talking with CHRF and Alan mentioned that the stock injectors would not handle the 272 cams I have. I understand that he uses Ford racing injectors for his configurations. He did also say that I could use the stock injectors if I turned the fuel pump pressure up to 65 lbs. But he noted that option would need to be monitored to confirm that the injectors are keep up with the required flow at WOT.
I'm going to go that route first, if I ever get this thing running right.
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01:12 PM
AJxtcman Member
Posts: 1098 From: Rock Hill SC Registered: Nov 2006
I don't know about 65 psi because the O&M has this big thing in it telling you to make sure your fuel rail pressure never goes above 60 psi. However I can say that I ran my motor (1998) with stock injectors and the fuel rail at 60 psi for almost 12 000 km.
I'll also say this. I don't know what the spray patern of the injectors looked like but from the O2 sensor readings I know that now that I'm adding power I better increase the injectors, because the stocks were at max duty cycle (80+%)WOT & .6 volts at 6500rpm.
[This message has been edited by aaron88 (edited 08-01-2010).]
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09:25 PM
Aug 2nd, 2010
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Wow... injectors are so damn cheap that there's no excuse risking your engine trying to run them at 90+% DC or higher than rated fuel pressures. I could get a set of 19# Ford injectors for $50 on ebay. I didn't check 30's and 36's, but those sizes are common as dirt as well and will support nearly double the stock horsepower.
You guys have done Northstar swaps... don't cheap out on the injectors.
The only reason for not upgrading now is that I want to drive the car before I upgrade to tunable engine management.
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12:19 PM
Aug 8th, 2010
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
These are the correct numbers for 1999 4.0L Shelby Can you tell me if all 96 to 99 4.0L & 4.6L supersede to the same part? I think I checked into this at one time and they all came up to the same replacement number. Vacuum Vs. Injector Flow Rate 29.9" (VAC) 2.172 gm/sec or 17.2 #/hr 28.4" (VAC) 2.203 gm/sec or 17.5 #/hr 27" (VAC) 2.305 gm/sec or 18.3 #/hr 25.5" (VAC) 2.406 gm/sec or 19.1 #/hr 24" (VAC) 2.453 gm/sec or 19.5 #/hr 22.5" (VAC) 2.469 gm/sec or 19.6 #/hr 21.1" (VAC) 2.570 gm/sec or 20.4 #/hr 19.6" (VAC) 2.633 gm/sec or 20.9 #/hr 18.1" (VAC) 2.648 gm/sec or 21.0 #/hr 16.6" (VAC) 2.656 gm/sec or 21.1 #/hr 15.2" (VAC) 2.664 gm/sec or 21.1 #/hr 13.7" (VAC) 2.695 gm/sec or 21.4 #/hr 12.2" (VAC) 2.789 gm/sec or 22.1 #/hr 10.7" (VAC) 2.898 gm/sec or 23.0 #/hr 9.3" (VAC) 2.953 gm/sec or 23.4 #/hr 7.8" (VAC) 2.977 gm/sec or 23.6 #/hr 6.3" (VAC) 3.016 gm/sec or 23.9 #/hr
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08:18 PM
Sep 13th, 2010
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The injector shop measured an average of about 190 cc/min from the stock injectors, which is 19 lbs/hr. After spending a couple of weeks getting ebay to reset my password, I was finally able to order a set of 19# Ford Motorsport injectors. Those arrived on the 4th and I took them to the shop for flow testing, etc. that day. I should get them back next weekend and be able to get the car back on the road at that time.
In the mean time, I have installed a new select cable and prepped an 11.25" brake setup to go on the car. I currently have Beretta brakes on it, which suck. From the current configuration, 11.25's should be a bolt-on. I also installed a 2nd Rodney Dickman decklid strut. Yes, I am upgrading the brakes on a car that does not yet move under its own power.
I pulled the cast aluminum thermostat housing off the side of the waterpump. I bead blasted it to clean it up and am looking at how the thermostat o-ring fits in it. Short of using RTV or some other additional sealant, the best bet is to assemble the thermostat housing and hose connection outside the car where I can be sure the o-ring isn't kinked or crimped, and then install the housing to the waterpump and hook things up. I'm also going to pressure test the system with a low pressure regulator prior to start via the hollow bolt GM used for the throttle body coolant line and which I have capped off. I should look at installing a petcock or quick disconnect to that location...
I have the dreaded steering wheel goo. Is there a way to fix that, or do I need to change out the steering wheel? I already have a telescoping column from a Cadillac from which I will cannibalize parts to give my car a telescoping column.
Injectors are in. I pumped the year old 110 + 93 mix out of the tank. The fuel system is ready to go. I have a 5 gallon can full of new 110 for the break in drive.
I'm having problems getting the thermostat housing to seal. I've been playing with that the last couple of weekends. I have pictures and story, but it will be more convenient to post them this evening.
I've also been installing 11.25" front brakes, and have story and pictures for that also. The fitting seized to the tube for the right front. I need to replace the tube, but the Fierostore only lists the brake lines as a SET for $150ish. Grrr...
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-26-2010).]
I could get a set of 19# Ford injectors for $50 on ebay. You guys have done Northstar swaps... don't cheap out on the injectors.
My injectors have been sitting idle for God only knows how long in some scrap yard before I bought the engine, and now that I have it, they've been sitting on my workbench for over a year. I looked into cleaning and flow checking them except nobody in the area provides this service. The best I can get is a cleaning with the injectors installed and engine running... hardly useful in my case. It sounds like getting new injectors is the way to go, so do these 19 lb Ford injectors fit the stock Caddy fuel rail without modification? How about the electrical connector... is it the same as the Caddy? What part number are these injectors?
And BTW... why hasn't this thread been moved to the construction zone yet? Did you pee in IMSA GT's cereal?
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10:16 AM
Sep 27th, 2010
IXSLR8 Member
Posts: 674 From: Post Falls, ID, USA Registered: Sep 2004
I just put the Ford 30 lb injectors in mine. I see them listed as Ford racing injectors on ebay. They are Bosch part number 0280155759 and are all red and the newer style slender ones. They fit no problem if they are the style that your referring to. Here's a link with a pic: http://www.boschdealer.com/...ath=1&products_id=26
Glad your getting closer Will.
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01:19 AM
Oct 3rd, 2010
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
For those of you who don't know, the Northstar uses a recirculating thermostat. Under all operating conditions, it sends more water back into the engine than it allows to go to the radiator. This complicates thermostat and thermostat housing design significantly, but this is the way modern engines have to work to pass emissions. The benefits are quicker, more homogeneous warm-up of the engine components.
The Northstar thermostat housing is cast aluminum. The thermostat slips in from one end. A flange on the thermostat seats in the bottom of the housing and the recirculation valve spring is compressed as the main thermostat flange & seal are seated in a shallow counterbore at the face of the housing. A stamped steel hose connection is bolted on to hold the thermostat in place. There is an inlaid rubber seal that seals the T-stat housing to the waterpump housing. The inlaid seal seems to be a very reliable method, as I had no problems with that interface on either the test plate or the waterpump.
The main thermostat seal is like an exterior grommet for the thermostat flange. It is squeezed between the bottom of the counterbore in the housing face and the flat surface of the hose connection.
When I first fired the engine last year before I went to Iraq, there was a significant leak between the hose connection and the housing. I didn't have time to dig into it then, so I left it in my dad's back yard for a year.
When I got back and pulled the housing off, I found that both the housing and the hose connection were kind of icky. I bead blasted them and sprayed primer + epoxy paint onto the hose connection. After playing with it, I found that the thermostat has a preferential orientation in the housing. WTF, GM? Also getting the thermostat flange seal to seat properly is something that takes some care. This means that installing the Northstar thermostat is a bench operation to be performed with the t-stat housing removed from the waterpump. Most design items on the Northstar are clean and efficient, but this is not one of them.
I took a piece of 1/4" plate 8" square and made a quick/dirty pressure test plate for Northstar thermostat housings. I can bolt the housing to the plate, cap off the heater and radiator return connections, pressurize the assembly to 4-5 psi using a low pressure regulator attached to a fitting in the plate, then (found after some experimentation with technique) immerse the whole shebang in a bucket of water. Leaks are instantly apparent.
I pressure tested the setup after carefully seating the thermostat/hose connection and it still leaked. I turned the hose connection 180 degrees and the leak followed the hose connection. I examined the hose connection more closely and found the sealing surface (though very smooth from the epoxy paint) was not flat. Sigh.
I swapped the hose connection from the '95 engine I'd originally swapped into the car onto the '93 T-stat housing. That didn't leak nearly as much as the all-'93 combo did, but still leaked a tiny bit. Years of ownership of a Pontiac 6000 have made me utterly unwilling to put up with the smell of coolant every time I open the hood, so I did NOT use this combo on the car. I believe that T-stat housing leaked because of corrosion pitting in the seal counterbore.
I went out to the shed and pulled FOUR more thermostat housing/hose connection assemblies from waterpumps in my collection. I tested the cleanest looking one and it stayed tight, so I installed the whole assembly to the car unmolested. I had prepped the '93 waterpump housing with a gasket scraped followed by sand paper on the sealing surface. As I said above, I have had no problems getting that interface to seal.
I filled the cooling system and pressure tested it to 12 psi through the Northstar's purge port on the waterpump housing. There was a small drip from the hose on the hose connection. The hose probably should be replaced soon, but I seated it a little further and snugged the hose clamp a little tighter and it sealed.
My dad and I poured the 5 gallons of 110 into the tank. I keyed on to prime the fuel system and found the battery was a doornail. We tried to charge it, but found it would not take a charge. It had sat far too long with a minute drain from the Cadillac instrument panel I use for a scan tool. My dad's on good terms with the proprietor of the local CarQuest. We always get batteries from him. While he closes at noon on Saturdays, he knew he had the battery in stock, went back to his store at 4 pm to get it and even brought it by my dad's house on his way home. Talk about service!
With a new battery installed, we primed the fuel system a few times to fill & pressurize the lines to check for leaks. None found.
3-2-1 CONTACT! It fired first crank and settled into a fast idle. The brakes were VERY high effort as I backed it out of the driveway, but I judged them sufficient to get this breaking-in show on the road, since I was using up my break-in window with every revolution.
I drove out of town and 6 miles to the next town to get on the highway. Temperature came up and stayed constant at the 1/4 mark on the gauge. A couple of blasts to pass country drivers on the two-lane reminded me how genuinely quick this car is. It will go from 50 to 90 in third in the blink of an eye covering the distance it takes to pass one car.
I got on the highway, put it in second and started the break in runs. I had forgotten how *VISCERAL* and sensory the experience of driving this car is. I don't so much sit in the car as I plug into it. The engine is firmly staked down with 4 urethane mounts. You can feel EVERYTHING the engine is doing, yet it's a V8, so it's smooth. The sensation is unlike anything else I've ever driven.
To stab the throttle is to be lifted bodily as the engine picks up the ENTIRE CAR, digs in and GOES like a sprinter leaving the blocks. The power delivery is like a punch in the kidneys.
Lifting off the pedal at redline is something done out of necessity rather than desire. The engine seems like it will pull forever. Once the throttle is closed, the whirr and snarl of approximately 3 BILLION mechanical parts moving in frantic and frenetic yet symphonic motion two feet behind my head asserts itself over the more muted exhaust note. Engine braking that feels like maximum acceleration with the 2.8 suspends me forward in the seatbelt. Who needs brakes when you have a high compression V8, a light flywheel and stiff gears?
Once back from redline to ~4000 RPM, I floor it again. And again. And again. And...
After a couple dozen cycles, the temperature has climbed to the "220" mark on the gauge. In retrospect, I should have had my dad watching coolant temp on the scan cluster, but didn't think about it at the time, for obvious reasons. The temp is OK, as Northstars LIKE to run warm.
I slipped it into 5th and drove like a sane person for a minute or two. The temp came RIGHT BACK DOWN to the 1/4 mark from whence it started. Cooling system and head gasket success! I'm running a stock (original!) V6 manual trans radiator and don't even have a hood vent. The original install didn't have any temperature control problems, so I suspect that the temp excursions I saw on this "test flight" were simply the result of an incompletely purged cooling system. HOWEVER, I am now driving the gauge via a 3 wire temp sensor in the factory CTS location, so I may simply have not been seeing temperature excursions previously, due to the old gauge sender's location in the heater circuit.
With the temp back down I dropped it back to second and started beating on it some more. As the temp climbed up to 220 again, I was getting to the foot of the mountain. I slowed to turn around at the first pulloff and was passed by a sport bike rider. I had *EVIL* thoughts about playing with him on the mountain, but was able to think clearly enough to stay focused on the task at hand.
I came back down the mountain and was about to start runs in THIRD gear when I had a complete loss of engine power. The engine was still turning, sounded good and all indications were healthy, so I was much more puzzled than panicked. Working the throttle changed the sound but did nothing else. I coasted to a slow speed and pulled off the road. I keyed on and did not hear the fuel pump. My dad touched the fuel pump relay while I tried again and the relay cycled. I checked the fuse box and found the F PUMP fuse blown. I did not have another 10A fuse in the car, but I did have a 15A. I put it in the fuse box and it blew the instant I touched it to the contacts. Uh oh. Serious short to ground.
We called my mom to bring the Suburban to tow us back to the house. While waiting I looked around the engine bay and found the brake booster vacuum connection not connected. Woops! Mystery of the high effort brakes solved! Mystery of the fast idle solved!
Coming back home on the tow rope I slipped the trans into 5th and let the engine turn. This energized the alternator, gave me vacuum for the power brakes and kept the rope snug and off the pavement--but not too tight--with no brain power expended on my part. At one point my dad had to get on the truck's brakes unexpectedly. I stabbed the Fiero brakes and since I now had brake boost, locked the front tires accidentally for a split second. These 11.25" brakes really work. Locking the brakes accidentally and with ease was a completely new experience in a Fiero.
So the car's in the driveway and I'm about to take my DVM out to hunt down the short in the fuel pump circuit. My initial guess is that the oil pressure sender (NEW unit from Olds Aurora) has failed shorted to ground. The 15A fuse blew at a time when neither the relay nor the oil pressure switch should be conducting current to the pump, so the fault is likely "upstream" of those components.
The '87 shop manual (specs to which my wiring harness is built) shows the F PUMP fuse supplying secondary current for the fuel pump relay (and of course current for the fuel pump) in parallel with the oil pressure switch/sender. There's nothing else on that circuit.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-03-2010).]
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10:36 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
My injectors have been sitting idle for God only knows how long in some scrap yard before I bought the engine, and now that I have it, they've been sitting on my workbench for over a year. I looked into cleaning and flow checking them except nobody in the area provides this service. The best I can get is a cleaning with the injectors installed and engine running... hardly useful in my case. It sounds like getting new injectors is the way to go, so do these 19 lb Ford injectors fit the stock Caddy fuel rail without modification? How about the electrical connector... is it the same as the Caddy? What part number are these injectors?
And BTW... why hasn't this thread been moved to the construction zone yet? Did you pee in IMSA GT's cereal?
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:
I just put the Ford 30 lb injectors in mine. I see them listed as Ford racing injectors on ebay. They are Bosch part number 0280155759 and are all red and the newer style slender ones. They fit no problem if they are the style that your referring to. Here's a link with a pic: http://www.boschdealer.com/...ath=1&products_id=26
Glad your getting closer Will.
I'll probably go with 36# units when I get a tunable engine management. The FMS design I, II and III injectors are all mechanically compatible with the Northstar fuel rail and manifold. The Design I & II injectors have only the EV1 connector, which is the same as the factory Northstar injectors. The Design III injectors can have either the EV1 or EV6 connector. The EV6 connector requires harness adapters.
The spray pattern for the 19# FMS injectors, however, is optimized to a single intake valve rather than two. For best results with a tunable EMS, an injector with a bi-conic spray pattern, designed for dual intake valves, should be used. Such *should be* readily available in the DSM, Honda and Import world.
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10:40 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
They all reach. The rear bank wires are perfect. The front bank wires are all the same length and 3 or more inches too short. They can not be routed around the end of the coil pack as GM did stock. They have to go straight over the coil pack and intake manifold to reach the plugs. My coil pack is mounted on the left mount locations, approximately centered on the rear cam cover.
From what I've learned of the Northstar, inserts and head gaskets are about as far as I'd go into one. If anything in the bottom end rotating assembly is screwed up, it looks like the best method of repair is replacement. As cheap as these engines are used, it's hard to justify anything otherwise (on a cost basis).
