the only tranny you can use with these engines are the ones that have the custom bolt patern this engine the new global patern not ecotec not 3800 not northstar the rwd patern is there but you need to find the fwd tranny that came on one of the vvt's made by holden aka 3.6l 2.8l 2.8lTurbo all VVT DOHC also known as the LY7, LP1. and the new DI LLT.
the only tranny you can use with these engines are the ones that have the custom bolt patern this engine the new global patern not ecotec not 3800 not northstar the rwd patern is there but you need to find the fwd tranny that came on one of the vvt's made by holden aka 3.6l 2.8l 2.8lTurbo all VVT DOHC also known as the LY7, LP1. and the new DI LLT.
Not Holden, Not Saab, Not Opel, Not Caddy! The engine is manufactured at least 5 facilities and 4 countries. This is very old info and is not completely correct any more. http://216.182.211.32/techl...TLfeb04e.html#story7
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12:16 PM
XzotikGT Member
Posts: 897 From: Spanaway, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2004
is the fwd intake manifold variable like the rear wheel drive version. mine looks different than the one in the mech tech picture. like its missing something.
What 6 speed manual transmission is attached to the 2.8 turbo in the Saab 9-3 Aero? F40? A derivative thereof? Does it have the same bolt pattern as the 3.6? (I assume it does, but I prefer not to guesstimate.)
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12:12 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
I think the biggest benefit of DI (direct injection) is the increased low end torque. Every engine I've looked at that has DI (brand independent) has insane low end torque. Is that from the cooling effect of DI, or just being able to dial the timing that much more precise with everything being metered correctly?
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: It's not a Saturn problem, my first experience with drive by wire was worse in a Nissan Murano, it had almost no smooth take off transition as if the the throttle was stepped to high and again pedal input to throttle response was awful, making me think "GO da....!". This technology is for the benefit of the manufacturer not the customer and you can be sure it's geared towards taming driving habits to well within the warranty coverage.
Keep in mind to that the Nissan Murano has a CVT (gearless tranny), so it's a different animal all together. (That nissan engine would be sweet though Vq-35 IIRC. Love that throaty sound (stock) :dreaming back to topic.
Damn, I was hoping that engine and tranny choices would be easier once GM is doing cost saving global powerplants. And that doesn't even include the headaches from the engine management system yet.
A lot of that increased low end torque is from the increased compression ratio that can be run with direct injection. I mean, 11.4:1 compression on regular unleaded is amazing.
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01:39 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Two companies I know of can tune the stock PCM from the 3.6 to get rid of torque management to make the throttle act like it should. Thay can do all the stuff necessary to get this thing to run in the Fiero. They can do your harness for you. Also, one of them I have talked to has a tune that is Dyno proven 15 extra horses to the wheels in a CTS, and he is willing to tune for boost. On top of that, both of them are 1/5 the cost of Mechtech.
[This message has been edited by XzotikGT (edited 10-19-2007).]
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08:04 PM
AJxtcman Member
Posts: 1098 From: Rock Hill SC Registered: Nov 2006
Two companies I know of can tune the stock PCM from the 3.6 to get rid of torque management to make the throttle act like it should. Thay can do all the stuff necessary to get this thing to run in the Fiero. They can do your harness for you. Also, one of them I have talked to has a tune that is Dyno proven 15 extra horses to the wheels in a CTS, and he is willing to tune for boost. On top of that, both of them are 1/5 the cost of Mechtech.
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08:52 PM
merlot566jka Member
Posts: 676 From: Norman, Oklahoma Registered: Jun 2007
i work for cadillac....i have some advice for you that will save you some heart ache
invest in more timing chains.
in the past week weve had 3 reseals (leaking oil since its a modular engine)
weve had 2 crank and cam sensor issues ( which ended up to be the cam timing chains and the intemediate timing chain stretching and allowing there to be more than 1/4 inch of slack) replacing these chains requires some extensive training and at least $600 in tools. I know the tools needed and can get you to a point where you can purchase them. the gm si's are incorrect on the replacement procedures, so dont try to use them. the tech video and a direct line to cadillac tech center is the only way your going to accomplish proper service on this vehicle for awhile!
weve had 6 oil cooler leaks on cts's, be aware!
and last, if you use the drive by wire system, know taht there are numerous failures on the tps and app
hope ive helped!
[This message has been edited by merlot566jka (edited 10-19-2007).]
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11:46 PM
Oct 20th, 2007
XzotikGT Member
Posts: 897 From: Spanaway, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2004
A lot of that increased low end torque is from the increased compression ratio that can be run with direct injection. I mean, 11.4:1 compression on regular unleaded is amazing.
True, I forgot to mention. Compression is greater too.
I think the biggest benefit of DI (direct injection) is the increased low end torque. Every engine I've looked at that has DI (brand independent) has insane low end torque. Is that from the cooling effect of DI, or just being able to dial the timing that much more precise with everything being metered correctly?
Keep in mind to that the Nissan Murano has a CVT (gearless tranny), so it's a different animal all together. (That nissan engine would be sweet though Vq-35 IIRC. Love that throaty sound (stock) :dreaming back to topic.
Damn, I was hoping that engine and tranny choices would be easier once GM is doing cost saving global powerplants. And that doesn't even include the headaches from the engine management system yet.
Although I doubt it had anything to do with the gearless transmission, the response on take off was unacceptable and an indication there was a problem or an inherent nature of the newness of the technology introduced with bugs that haven't quite been worked out, it was so abrupt I'm sure there was a problem. I have noticed a similar issue with the Saturn 3.6L though it's not nearly as bad and more like catching the computer off guard, often quite a bit of hiccuping goes on when a series of multiple throttle changes take place such as in stop and go traffic. I don't think the most inexperienced person with drivetrain characteristics would have any problem with pointing out at least in the symptoms I have experienced that drive by wire is not as smooth in the two examples I gave as drive by cable.
If the engine and transmission each have their own computer that may be part of the problem, the data processing. Despite the power of the 3.6L it has a problem maintaining steady speed with cruise control engaged and I attribute that to either programming issues or gearing. Without exaggeration my Fiero held cruise control speeds much more accurately.
As mentioned, perhaps it's a TPS problem which will certainly affect acceleration characteristics especially when the PCM is actually making the throttle adjustment. There should be little to no difference as far as the engine itself is concerned between the applications so any of the cars using the 3.6L should be subject to the same engine problems seen with the Cadillac.
Drive one of these vehicles for about a day or two over a sufficient number of miles and you will probably note the issues I mentioned.
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10:57 AM
AJxtcman Member
Posts: 1098 From: Rock Hill SC Registered: Nov 2006
i work for cadillac....i have some advice for you that will save you some heart ache
invest in more timing chains.
in the past week weve had 3 reseals (leaking oil since its a modular engine)
weve had 2 crank and cam sensor issues ( which ended up to be the cam timing chains and the intemediate timing chain stretching and allowing there to be more than 1/4 inch of slack) replacing these chains requires some extensive training and at least $600 in tools. I know the tools needed and can get you to a point where you can purchase them. the gm si's are incorrect on the replacement procedures, so dont try to use them. the tech video and a direct line to cadillac tech center is the only way your going to accomplish proper service on this vehicle for awhile!
weve had 6 oil cooler leaks on cts's, be aware!
and last, if you use the drive by wire system, know taht there are numerous failures on the tps and app
hope ive helped!
3.6L do not have oil coolers.
07 3.6L had some early production Timing chain problem. So many went out with bad chains ( non hardened )
If you have done ten or so you would understand the redundancy in the timing chain procedure.
better yet check it before you take one a part. Do this on an engine that does not have a Timing chain problem.
By this time I bet every 07 has been fixed since they failed with in the first 10k
[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 10-20-2007).]
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10:19 PM
Dec 13th, 2007
AJxtcman Member
Posts: 1098 From: Rock Hill SC Registered: Nov 2006
The Torana Legend Lives Again Australian International Motor Show, 7 October 2004: Holden today revived a famous Australian nameplate when it took the covers off a sensational show car called Torana TT36.
Holden drew on General Motors' global resources to build the hot pink Torana TT36, which is powered by an experimental 280kW twin turbo 3.6 litre Alloytec V6 engine, sports a glass roof and showcases bold directional design themes.
Not for production, this mid-sized hatch concept demonstrates the strength and versatility of Holden's design talent to a worldwide audience and emphasises its ability to react swiftly to changing customer demand.
Torana TT36 highlights Holden's rear wheel drive powertrain engineering expertise and the practical benefits to be gained by sharing GM global suspension and chassis components and modular structural systems.
The new millennium hot hatch pays homage to Holden's Bathurst-winning icon car of the seventies, the Torana A9X. It is 25 years since the revered V8-powered Torana A9X last conquered Mount Panorama and wrote itself into Australian automotive legend.
Holden Chairman and Managing Director, Denny Mooney, today said he believed the Torana's spiritual successor showed how times continued to change in the automotive industry.
"Torana TT36 represents a revolution in concept car design at Holden. We've unveiled several examples of our design flexibility and build capability in recent years but this car is exceptional for yet another reason," Mr Mooney said.
"All recent showcars have been based on our Commodore V-car platform. Torana TT36, on the other hand, shares many basic structural elements with the latest GM sports concepts and much of its chassis componentry is sourced directly from GM.
"It is the first Holden showcar to merge Australian design and engineering expertise with GM technical resources. Quite simply, for us it is a 'game changer' in automotive design and production.
"Naming the concept car was easy. We knew many fans would immediately call it Torana because it is a high powered, mid-size, rear wheel drive hot hatch. The TT36 stands for Twin Turbo 3.6."
The twenty-first century Torana has slingshot performance potential. Its experimental 3.6 litre twin turbo Alloytec V6, hand-built at Holden's new Port Melbourne engine plant, produces 280kW of power, transferred to the tarmac via a heavy-duty six speed manual transmission.
the 3.6lvvt is a nice engine but exspecive to do if tou want the manual 6spd you need the tranny out of saab 9-3 2.8l vvt turbo 2007to2008 if i were you i would go with the auto 6spd and get a tranny controller it can hanndle more hourses and easyer to find this engine has its own bolt pattern it is not like any other. as far as ecm are concerned if you try to go with stock you will need a lot of prats from the donor car and a ton of ecm tunning there is a aftermarket ecu but i dont know if it will be street leagl. here is the link. and this engine is called the newstar not the shortstar btw this setup was to rich for my blood 10.000+ i went with a differant swap here is the peps that have any info you need and supply ecms http://www.mechtech-ms.com/offRoadEngines.php here is my other swap https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087040.html
sorry to bring up old topics but i finaly found a tranny this is a F40 6spd out of a 2007 saab 9-3 turbo 2.8l vvt it will work with the 3.6l vvt engine for the ultamate v6 fiero swap.
eventualy i will begin this swap its going to be a while due to my other project https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087040.html as soon as i have this engine done i will be selling the 3.4l turbo and swapping in the 3.6l vvt.
[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 03-06-2008).]
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11:58 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mar 6th, 2008
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10648 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
sorry to bring up old topics but i finaly found a tranny this is a F40 6spd out of a 2007 saab 9-3 turbo 2.8l vvt it will work with the 3.6l vvt engine for the ultamate v6 fiero swap.
eventualy i will begin this swap its going to be a while due to my other project https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087040.html as soon as i have this engine done i will be selling the 3.4l turbo and swapping in the 3.6l vvt.
WOW I love it Now I know the other bolt pattern
[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 03-06-2008).]
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06:43 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
sorry to bring up old topics but i finaly found a tranny this is a F40 6spd out of a 2007 saab 9-3 turbo 2.8l vvt it will work with the 3.6l vvt engine for the ultamate v6 fiero swap.
Where'd you find that and how long were you looking? What happened to the turbo hardware from that car?
I've seen one or two 2.8T Saab engines around on Car-part.com, and one 6 speed. I think it'd kick ass to put all the 2.8T management on the 3.6 - I wonder how the engine management would handle the bigger displacement and higher compression? Different cams?
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07:31 AM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
yes the cams swap almost every thing will swap over and you cant use the stock ecm i dont think. also you will have to use the saab flywheel and clutch. fyi
[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 03-06-2008).]
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04:42 PM
Apr 2nd, 2008
SpeedWorksAutoTuning Member
Posts: 380 From: Washington State Registered: Oct 2007
pending more investigation, but i think the four cylinder 5 and 6 speed trannies from the 07+ 9-3 has the same bolt pattern. Also, i think it goes back even further than that. I saw a picture of a quad four tranny and it looked pretty close too.
If I had the cash and the time I would definately make this my next swap. It has long been apparent to me that the Saab cars have the necessary hardware to make the 3.6 F40 combination work. Below is a picture of a Saab F40 flywheel that appears to be a dual mass piece as well as having the same pressure plate bolt pattern found on the G6 dual mass flywheel. It also has the same number of bolt holes for flywheel mounting as found on the 3.6L crankshaft flange.
Having already proved it possible with the 3900, it should also be possible to mechanically lock the cam phasers into the appropriate position on the 3.6L to eliminate the VVT until a more practical option short of swapping in the dash components and other items from the donor car to take advantage of it comes along.
There is no reason I can see that should prevent this engine from running like the 3.4 DOHC engine using it's PCM which would be the best optional approach to engine management for a start.
I've not yet seen a CTS manual flywheel for the 3.6 but I have a sneaky suspicion it is dual mass because I drove a 6spd caddi about a week ago and noticed the same clanky noise and feel in the drivetrain that the dual mass flywheel in my setup has. I thought it was a bit tacky for a caddilac.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-12-2008).]
i hate to see this thread die lots of good information here. if you want to do this swap call or email these guys they have all the bits to make it run at 305bhp. and they have a turbo setup to. http://www.mechtech-ms.com/ctsv6.php also i hear there is a supercharger for it now to. http://www.cadillacforums.c...c-forum/t-11211.html i cant wait to do this swap. if i only had the cash i just looked at car-part.com and there are a lot of 3.6l for sale in the 1000.00 dollar range.
[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 09-24-2008).]
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08:14 AM
PFF
System Bot
Oct 6th, 2008
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
There is still some question about the bellhousing, GM lists the 3.6L as bolting to at least two different 6 spd automatics, the 45 series 6 spd carries the odd ball bellhousing, the 65 series 6 spd auto has the same bellhousing as the 60 degree V6. When I checked I found that both of these transmissions were used in the Saturn Aura suggesting that depending on the vehicle and there are many, the 3.6L in some applications may in deed have the old bolt pattern identical to the 2.8L, that is the only way you can bolt the 6T65 to it.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-06-2009).]
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07:15 PM
Mar 9th, 2009
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
There is still some question about the bellhousing, GM lists the 3.6L as bolting to at least two different 6 spd automatics, the 45 series 6 spd carries the odd ball bellhousing, the 65 series 6 spd auto has the same bellhousing as the 60 degree V6. When I checked I found that both of these transmissions were used in the Saturn Aura suggesting that depending on the vehicle and there are many, the 3.6L in some applications may in deed have the old bolt pattern identical to the 2.8L, that is the only way you can bolt the 6T65 to it.
More likely that they have multiple transmission cases. They did with the 282, for instance.
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11:12 AM
Apr 8th, 2009
fierodeletre Member
Posts: 834 From: Behind Animal's Drum Set. Registered: Oct 2006
So- how do you think the fiero manual CV axles will like the F40's output splines? I know wftb's ecotec swap got lucky in that the F23 was a direct match. Probably wishing for too much if this were the same... Any thoughts?
So- how do you think the fiero manual CV axles will like the F40's output splines? I know wftb's ecotec swap got lucky in that the F23 was a direct match. Probably wishing for too much if this were the same... Any thoughts?
If he's using the supercharged Ecotec it uses the F35 which has the same axle spline count at the transmission as the F40. It would be the outboard joint that fits the Fiero hub without modifying/hybriding. The F23 should have a different spline count at the transmission since it is important to specify the supercharged engines when looking for these axles because they are different between the F23 & F35 at the inboard joint. The Fiero axles should work in the F23 found in the non supercharged Ecotec powered cars.
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07:08 AM
Apr 10th, 2009
fierodeletre Member
Posts: 834 From: Behind Animal's Drum Set. Registered: Oct 2006
Nah wftb used the 2.2l NA eco in his swap I believe, then later turbocharged the setup, but keeping the stock F23. I think the LSJ with its F35 has a far different Passenger side axle with a jackshaft assembly to counter torque steer. I wonder of the F40 is set up similarly.
------------------ Kermit- "So you like your drums huh?" Animal- "Oh yeah! Mwah Mwah Mwah" (kissing drum set) Kermit- "Uh huh. More than food, huh?" Animal- "They ARE food! Eat Drums! Eat Cymbals!" (eating noises) Kermit- "Hm. How 'cymbal'-ic!" Animal- (looking abused) "BAD PUN!"
back to topic.
