Indeed, it can be interesting to do such a project. Been there done that with our intakes and headers etc. You may want to get new TBs rather than collecting used ones what with the dif amounts of shaft wear on used TBs.
If you want to take it one step more, using seperate TBs like that will alow for the use of moveable intake runners. I have a very adaptable design for such that also includes a simple way and very effective to mount the injectors. It also negates the need for any special fuel rail. If the idea interest you, send me an e-mail.
Originally posted by Russ544: interesting........... I just went out and checked a couple dozen springs and they are all the same. my vin 9 and vin Y springs all have the same number of coils. the height and the wire mikes the same as well. I even miked my cams and I deffinetly have one vin of each variety. I wish I had a spring tester here, as I'm really curious now.
Don't quote me on this, but they might have switched to using a single set of springs after some model year.
In lieu of a spring tester, you can use a drill press and a bathroom scale.... Don't shoot your eye out.
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09:09 AM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
Don't quote me on this, but they might have switched to using a single set of springs after some model year.
In lieu of a spring tester, you can use a drill press and a bathroom scale.... Don't shoot your eye out.
HA ha. now that's funny. funny because I had exactly the same idea last night, but I'd pretty much concluded that the springs were all the same anyway. I figured I could just set the stop on the drillpress so it always came down to the same height for each spring. great minds think alike
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11:23 AM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
Indeed, it can be interesting to do such a project. Been there done that with our intakes and headers etc. You may want to get new TBs rather than collecting used ones what with the dif amounts of shaft wear on used TBs.
If you want to take it one step more, using seperate TBs like that will alow for the use of moveable intake runners. I have a very adaptable design for such that also includes a simple way and very effective to mount the injectors. It also negates the need for any special fuel rail. If the idea interest you, send me an e-mail.
The tb set I got the other day has 169 miles on it. the one I'm bidding on now is't quite that low, but it's pretty low miles also (2006 model).
I am interested in your "variable runner" concept. especially the way you mount the injectors. this is just an information gathering thread, so you're welcom to post here, but if you prefer e-mail I'm at skyman at uci dot net .
Thanks, Russ
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-11-2007).]
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11:29 AM
toddshotrods Member
Posts: 1177 From: Columbus, OH, USA Registered: Aug 2004
I am planning to do something like this in the future, but for now the project is on the back burner. I am just collecting parts and ideas while I get some other projects out of the way. My plan is completely on the other end of practical and, were I not doing the labor myself, very expensive. I plan to develop a 3D model for an artistic version of Hilborn (mechanical) style injection. It will basically be eight sculptured horns TIG'd to two machined bases. I want to try and hide the injectors similar to this:
I want the runners to shoot straight up on each side leaving the valley wide open. If it doesn't work it's ryan.hess's fault, cuz he told me it would
------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
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05:59 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I want to try and hide the injectors similar to this:
It's interesting to see how they milled a passageway in the manifold to tie all the ports together for their vacume source. only one external vacume line for a nice clean look. However I would think they could have done better by aiming the injectors more towards the valves instead of towards the port wall
Russ544
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08:08 PM
Nov 12th, 2007
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I won the other injector set I needed on Ebay last night ( $74.33 not bad for a 2006 ) I also won a compleat 98 N* intake manifold with TB, injectors, all sensors etc for $50.99 . I couldn't pass that up even if I just use a few parts off it. just waiting for brown to show up now and we'll get this thing started
Russ544
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10:07 AM
ccfiero350 Member
Posts: 826 From: Houston, Texas Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Russ544: ...they could have done better by aiming the injectors more towards the valves instead of towards the port wall Russ544
Different values in the street rod world. The loss of a little potential horsepower is acceptable to increase the artistic value. It's all in what you're looking for. I can appreciate both, but the older I get the more I lean towards the aesthetic...
------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
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07:04 PM
Nov 13th, 2007
SpeedWorksAutoTuning Member
Posts: 380 From: Washington State Registered: Oct 2007
In the various reading I've done in preparation for this project, I've yet to see any mention of using an IAC valve with ITB injection. what am I missing here? My thoughts are that most ITB setups are more "race" oriented, so idle provisions are deamed less important. still, I'll be setting this up more as a road car, so idle is important to me. how do the european manufactures handle this?... perhaps have an IAC valve incorporated into a small vacume line fed plenum? just thinking out loud, Russ544
edit: that link Will gave me (Mega squirt) sure has a lot of great information,....... once you can wade through it all. I found a good canidate for an IAC there that can bolt onto a block, which I can make on my lathe/milling machine.. then it can plumb in with vacume lines, and is cheep. what more could I ask for .
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-13-2007).]
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09:07 PM
PFF
System Bot
Nov 14th, 2007
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
It's interesting to see how they milled a passageway in the manifold to tie all the ports together for their vacume source. only one external vacume line for a nice clean look. However I would think they could have done better by aiming the injectors more towards the valves instead of towards the port wall
Russ544
I don't think you can really hit the back of the valves on a flathead engine, no matter how you point the injectors. Of course, somebody my age shouldn't really know about flathead stuff, so I could be wrong. The valve stems point down into the block.
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03:34 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Russ544: edit: that link Will gave me (Mega squirt) sure has a lot of great information,....... once you can wade through it all. I found a good canidate for an IAC there that can bolt onto a block, which I can make on my lathe/milling machine.. then it can plumb in with vacume lines, and is cheep. what more could I ask for .
Which IAC is that?
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07:49 AM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I don't think you can really hit the back of the valves on a flathead engine, no matter how you point the injectors. Of course, somebody my age shouldn't really know about flathead stuff, so I could be wrong. The valve stems point down into the block.
ha ha. ya... actually I'm old enough to know that also, but also old enough for it not to register . actually, what I should have said was that they could have pointed the injectors more in line with the port opening. spraying against the port wall could cause wetting (something I'm NOT old enough to know about yet)
Russ544
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10:42 AM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I have the info at home and I'm at work, but it's a Pontiac IAC that bolts on with a flange instead of screwing in. either could be used, but this should just be easier to fabricate a block to go with it. got the idea from here: http://www.diyautotune.com/...91344ed230da12728881
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10:59 AM
Nov 16th, 2007
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
change of plans I decided to use the Cad IAC instead. the Pontiac (92' GP 3.1) unit is electrically the same, and was more redily available, but the pital valve is smaller and a different shape than the Cad, and I wasn't sure haw to machine the depth to compensate. anyway, here is the block of aluminum that I carved out, with the Cad IAC, to creat a "remote" unit. when I figure out where it will mount I'll drill and tap some holes in it and polish it up real purdy .
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01:28 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
Well I'm a VERY happy boy right now. both heads torqued down without incident. yippie!! . I was somewhat optimistic after removing the heads and each one of the bolts displayed the prerequisite "click - POP" sound. I also was careful to clean the threads in the block very carefully prior to installing the new head bolts. hard to see on the bolt in the pic, but I cut 4 lengthwise slots through the threads with a cutoff wheel. this tool makes a nice thread "cleaner" (as opposed to chaser or tap) and doesn't remove any aluminum in the process. that went down every head bolt hole twice. before and after each time, the hole was carefully blown out with air.
Russ544
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-16-2007).]
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03:37 PM
Erik Member
Posts: 5625 From: Des Moines, Iowa Registered: Jul 2002
Well I'm a VERY happy boy right now. both heads torqued down without incident. yippie!! . I was somewhat optimistic after removing the heads and each one of the bolts displayed the prerequisite "click - POP" sound. I also was careful to clean the threads in the block very carefully prior to installing the new head bolts. hard to see on the bolt in the pic, but I cut 4 lengthwise slots through the threads with a cutoff wheel. this tool makes a nice thread "cleaner" (as opposed to chaser or tap) and doesn't remove any aluminum in the process. that went down every head bolt hole twice. before and after each time, the hole was carefully blown out with air.
Russ544
No timeserts?? You have more courage and faith than I do
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06:20 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
aww come on guys. where's your sence of adventure? I have about $250.oo in this engine so far. $120 of that is the hd gaskets, so I couldn't see spending $350 on inserts before I at least tried it without them first. if even one thread had gone away wile torquing, I would have installed a full set of inserts, but they all held so........ I'm mostly just putting this motor together to use as a mule to test the ITB setup. the motor won't even be going into a Fiero. just the injection system. If the ITB injection works out as I hope, then it will go on the N* in my IMSA Fiero, but the rest of this motor will most likely end up in another (long term - non Fiero) project that I've been working on for a year or more.... off and on. I'm just hanging around killing time, waiting for the second injector set to show up, so I'll see if I can dig up a picture of it.
Russ544
edit to add:
36 Ford slant back. I've already shortened the body 22" and channeled it over the frame ~6" . it will get a top chop after it's mounted on the frame more solidly. I'll use a Fiat Topolino repro grill shell (see FiatTopolino based gasser below). eventually it will be styled to look somewhat like this:
I plan to build a simple test stand for this N* very shortly, so I'll be able to develope the ITB setup on it in the shop. I'll have a radiator etc so it can be run for a wile to work some of the bugs out.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-19-2007).]
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09:09 PM
Nov 17th, 2007
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I finished getting the mule motor put together today. I'm looking for a coil pack and set of ex manifolds, but I might have a lead on those. the other injector set should be here tuesday, but I did get the set I already have stripped down. looks like there will be lots of work to get these TBs ready to use as there are several holes to plug and linkage modification to make. I almost wonder if it wouldn't have been easier to make some throttle bodies from scratch. I'll have more details tomorrow on how these TB will be set up.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-18-2007).]
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10:54 PM
PFF
System Bot
Nov 18th, 2007
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
Thanks Fie Ro. I played around with some "design issues" today and built a prototype of one of the manifold tube sets. I'll need to get some 1 3/4" tubing and I only had 2", but it worked fine for my purposes today. I'll be building the tubes out of aluminized exhaust tubing.
I started by cutting the tubes to length. I decided on a 30* angle out of the ports. that could be slightly less, but it makes mounting the injectors at the stock Cad angle easier. I'm shooting for having the injectors spraying in (very close to) a stock Cad trajectory. the top of the tube is 20* to the mounting flange, which makes the flow a bit straighter from TB to valves............ and besides... I think it looks cooler which is much more important anyway .
once the angles were decided on, I tack welded a couple braces on the sides to hold them in alignment.
then I worked over the bottom of the tubes to match up with the < > square ports
once the port flanges are cut out it will be easier to fit up the tubes to that, but for today's practice session this is pretty good:
Here are a couple shots of the general layout, propped up in position, below. of course the throttle bodies will eventually be mounted to the manifold tubes via rubber/silicone tubes and clamps, but you get the idea:
this injector bung placement is approximate, and will need some refinement for the final design, but it's pretty close as is:
All and all I'm pretty happy with the setup so far. I think I have most of the basic bugs worked out of the concept, (famous last words) so on we go.
Russ544
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-19-2007).]
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06:02 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
(1) the already there injector holes are too small to use the Cad injectors without modification (edit) there isn't enough meat around the injector boss to enlarge them. (2) if I use the stock locations and stock type Cad injectors, I may also be able to use the Cad injector rail assy and regulator (3) it worked for GM it should work for me? (4) I reserve the right to change my mind at a later date
quote
Where is the other half of the throttle ass'y?
other half? the injectors are comprised of two twin TB assys bolted together when used on the 4 cyl bike. the spaceing of the N* ports required that I spread the two tb assys further apart for a more dirrect port alignment, so I unbolted the two pair and will make spacers to go between the two pair, and a connection for the throttle shafts (fairly simple to do) when I get to that point. is that what you meant?
because I'm not set up to weld aluminum, and it just wouldn't be practical to have someone else do the welding on an "experimental" project like this. If this one works out I may have one built from aluminum (or stainless) at a later date, but there really is no down side to using steel + it's much easier and cheeper for me to work with.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-19-2007).]
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08:58 PM
Nov 23rd, 2007
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I've been a busy boy the past couple of days. I think I have several of the issues of ITB taken care of, but there's still a long ways to go. first was the manifold itself: Yesterday I borrowed a friends plasma cutter at his hot rod shop and cut out the flange plates for the manifold. his plasma cutter is too small to do this 1/4" plate and it took a lot of work to clean up the pieces. it's still much better than I could have done with my oxy-acetylene cutting torch, but I still wasn't very impressed with it. when I got the parts home and finnally got them cleaned up, I scabbed together a gig (still on the lower manifold pictured below) to hold each manifold tube in position to be welded. the tubes all need to be lined up with each other and spaced properly to match up with the throttle bodies, as well as maintaining the proper tilt etc.. each tube is fully welded in place now, from the bottom, and just needs to have my welds ground down flush to the bottom of the flange. if you'll note (Will) each tube is matched to the shape of the port in the head (~square) wile the tops are round . Now to get the injector bungs made up and installed. I'll fab them on my lathe next week at "work".
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-23-2007).]
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01:21 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
Early this week was slow for me at work so I spent quite a bit of time on the lathe making parts for this project. first I turned out 8 adaptors to create vacuum fittings in the lower injector port of each throttle body (for the power brake booster). two are installed in the TB on the right below, and the pieces for the others are laid out in front of it. I also installed some cupped plugs in each TB upper injector openings as they are no longer needed. I want to use all Cad sensors on this project, so I needed to figure out a way to make a throttle shaft adaptor to go from the small TB shaft with two flat sides, to the larger diameter TPS sensor shaft with one flat side. When these TB are in use on the bike, they use two throttle shafts. the lower one is controlled by the twist grip in the normal fashion via cable, but the upper throttle shaft is controlled by the computer via a stepper motor (lower right in photo). I sure didn't need that thing, so I thumped it over the head and donated it's organs to my own use. there's a 1/4 round gear at the output of this contraption from which I was able to saw out the hub (shown to the left of the controller below) and with some minor machine work it became my shaft adaptor. this is a small piece and hard to photograph, but suffice it to say.... "it works well". with that solved I still needed an adaptor to mount the TPS to the throttle body, so I turned one out of aluminum (pictured between the cad TPS and the throttle body on the left). the brass ring above the adaptor had been pressed into the TB where the throttle shaft exits, but I removed and discarded it and duplicated its shape on the back side of my TPS adaptor (it holds the throttle shaft bearing in position). this not only holds the bearing in place now, but it also precicely centers the TPS assy. over the throttle shaft.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-23-2007).]
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02:16 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I have no idea if it will run or not, but it's sure gona look cool IMHO
The other TB set should be here late today (according to UPS tracking), so I can get some linkage figured out. I think that will actually be fairly simple however. I'll extend the throttle shafts out to connecdt the two pair together again in the same manner they were when they were right next to one another. at the same time I'll build a belcrank on the extensions to connect the two banks of TBs together. easily adjustable and simple to fabricate.
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06:20 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
UPS has "rescheduled" delivery of my other TB assy until Monday, but I was still able to get one side of the linkage done and some parts made for the other side for when it does arrive. to tie the two TB shafts together again, I first cut out a new throttle arm that looks like the original, except for the added bellcrank arm on the bottom that will be used to tie the two banks of TBs together. the upper portion was bent to duplicate the original.
then I cut a piece of scrap tubing, cut it to precise length, squared up the ends on the lathe, and welded it between the new arm and the original. If my old high school shop teacher is watching this, he's turning over in his grave about now, but it was the best way I could think to hold the pieces in perfect alignment wile tack welding them together.
reassembled again, it functions just like it did originally on the bike.... except the TB pairs are ~ 2" further apart now. on a side note. the black plastic spacers you see holding the two TB pairs apart are original Cad spacers used to hold that decorative cover over the intake manifold. I had four of them - they were the perfect length for the job and required no modification what-so-ever - I used them. the brass colored rod end is where the other bank of TBs will connect to this bank BTW.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-26-2007).]
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06:06 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
BTW, throwing out another idea - send them off to a header shop and get them chrome plated.
these TBs are 40 MM at the throttle plate and taper up to 46 MM at the inlet. It appears (and I could be wrong on this) that different years of the same size engine used different size TBs. I think some of the early 600s used 42mm for example. and some 1000 GSXRs use 40mm and some years use 42mm. I just tried to buy TBs from the same year and model, hoping they would be a match. Oh BTW: some have a single injector per throat also. Apparantly they couldn't make up their mind how to build them. maybe Ford has something to do with the design .
chrome?? CHROME?? CHROME?? them's fighten words yungster. I HATE chrome on an engine. chrome is for faucets, toilet handles and trailer queen cars. chrome is for......... don't get me started.......................... I hate chrome.
Russ544
------------------ It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-24-2007).]
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08:44 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by Russ544: chrome?? CHROME?? CHROME?? them's fighten words yungster. I HATE chrome on an engine. chrome is for faucets, toilet handles and trailer queen cars. chrome is for......... don't get me started.......................... I hate chrome.
Russ544
Believe me, I do too!
But I think it would really set off the cast aluminum throttle bodies. Kind of like how a polished stainless fuel rail makes nice jewelry on a black intake.
I'll settle for polished aluminum, though I think we already went over that.......
[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 11-24-2007).]
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09:27 PM
Nov 26th, 2007
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
But I think it would really set off the cast aluminum throttle bodies. Kind of like how a polished stainless fuel rail makes nice jewelry on a black intake.
I'll settle for polished aluminum, though I think we already went over that.......
would you settle for "black chrome" powder coating? I'll have to see if Aaron (Electrathon) is still doing that stuff.
RC
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-26-2007).]
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12:58 PM
Dec 1st, 2007
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
A short update: I'm still working on this, but work got in the way last week (life sucks) so I haven't had the time to devote much of it to the fun stuff. I had a change of plan concerning the placement of the injectors, as there turned out to just not be enough room for the body of the injector, the way I had them. I had thought I could dimple the manifold tube enough to clear, but I still would have had to made a more complicated bung for each injector to set in that way, and it would have shrouded them badly anyway. I ended up adding a shed roof for the injector bungs to set in (much like the stock Cad manifold), and that worked out pretty well. I then machined out 8 steel bungs and brazed them in place wile they were held at the correct angle with a scabbed together gig. I'm doing a little "bodywork" on the manifold now, and also waiting for some more parts to show up, but we're still..... moving......... along.......... slowly. I did win a N* coil pack on E-bay this morning for ~$45.oo , so that made me happy .
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05:28 PM
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
