quote Originally posted by motoracer838: Russ, this is just way too cool, I can't wait to see it done. Joe

Thanks Joe..... ya me to

I built an aluminum valley cover to give a place to mount the mini plenum, IAC spider, etc., as well as making it a little cleaner appearing.



So far the mock ups have gone without a hitch. the factory ("recall") fuel rail fits beautifully, and clears all the little do-dads. so far - so good. I'm still looking for a supplier for some 1 3/4" silicone/rubber tubing for the carb to manifold tubes, but I'm not too worried about that yet.

would something like this work with the solid base 42 mm throatand only 62mm high?

quote Originally posted by Russ544:

Now that is cool! Good Job!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jdv: would something like this work with the solid base 42 mm throatand only 62mm high?

I don't see why not. (see my sig )
what is that TB off of? it is an interesting piece actually.

Thanks,
Russ

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It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.

yamaha 1000cc boat engine like an r1 I picked up 8 sets of 4 some time ago . they are 80mm apart and only one throttle blade.
I started the same type project on a 3400 top end but work has not moved as fast as yours .Nice work

Wow russ thats beautiful, seriously that is some serious skill, my L44 will be at your shop soon .

quote Originally posted by jdv: yamaha 1000cc boat engine like an r1 I picked up 8 sets of 4 some time ago . they are 80mm apart and only one throttle blade. I started the same type project on a 3400 top end but work has not moved as fast as yours .Nice work

What is the port on the left ? the rectangular one. also, is the bottom of the TB round..... I mean does the injector open up into the round portion of the throat, or does the TB have a "cove" on the bottom, for the injector to spray into?
I see some hurdles, just like you'd have with any similar endevor, but nothing that can't be overcome. I hope you show you're progress when you do get started on it. it looks interesting.

Russ544

Wow! Thats really impressive!!

I would love to have the skills tools and a place to do all this!!! Its fun already reading and looking at these pictures, let alone actually fabricating this!

Other than the intake, this is a stock N*, right? What transmission is this going on? 700r4?

I would be very interested in a dyno graph. The stock N* intake does have some restrictions, so it would be nice to see what it could do "free flowing" with no other changes. Your short runners are going to kill any resonant tuning, though it would be one less variable for gains.

It would be fun to play around with air horn lengths on a dyno...

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 12-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Other than the intake, this is a stock N*, right? What transmission is this going on? 700r4? I would be very interested in a dyno graph. The stock N* intake does have some restrictions, so it would be nice to see what it could do "free flowing" with no other changes. Your short runners are going to kill any resonant tuning, though it would be one less variable for gains. It would be fun to play around with air horn lengths on a dyno...

yes. the mule motor and the motor in my IMSA are both stock VIN 9 (300hp) motors. the trans in the IMSA is a 5 speed. that's where this manifold will go if it works out ok. the intake air horn length will be limited mostly by hood height, although I'll build an air-box for that car to attach to the current cold air intake system. The 36' will have a 5 speed trans also, and the stacks on that car will be open (except for individual screens) and have much longer tubes. I live in Podunkville, and last I heard there was still no dyno in town. It's a slim possibility that I could take the car the ~35 miles to the nearest town that does have one however. we'll see.

EDIT: from valve head to throttle plate is very close to 10.5" .

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Will: The lifters are the same... it's the valvesprings that are different. You MUST upgrade the VIN Y springs if you want to spin over 6400 RPM. The VIN 9 springs are good for 6700, but NO MORE.

From my build thread ... "Just for kicks, I compared the valve springs today. The VIN-Y springs are wound from 0.125" diameter wire, and have six-and-a-half 360-degree coils. The VIN-9 springs are made from 0.130" diameter wire, and have only six 360-degree coils."
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/081971.html

I've been AWOL for awhile and just found this thread. Interesting stuff! I also sold my V2 Harley and picked up a Honda ST1300-ABS with a longitudinal V4 engine. Once I got digging into the Honda factory service manual, I realized the V4 is basically half of a N*. BTW, it has individual throttle bodies.

quote Originally posted by WAWUZAT: From my build thread ... "Just for kicks, I compared the valve springs today. The VIN-Y springs are wound from 0.125" diameter wire, and have six-and-a-half 360-degree coils. The VIN-9 springs are made from 0.130" diameter wire, and have only six 360-degree coils."

I've checked many of the 64 springs which I removed from the 2 pr of heads I have. one engine was a vin 9, the other a vin Y. both are 98' vintage and all springs are the same. 6 coils of .130 (.129 actually) wire. I suspect Ryan may be right that they went with the stiffer spring at some point during production for both varietys . I see your motor is a 95 so that may bear out.

BTW: I got a start on the "test stand" today. it will get some castors at some point, as well as holding guages and laptop for preliminary testing of the ITB setup. I'll use the Holly commander ECU and set it up with WB O-2 sensor.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Russ544: if you'll note (Will) each tube is matched to the shape of the port in the head (~square) wile the tops are round . Now to get the injector bungs made up and installed. I'll fab them on my lathe next week at "work".

They're also about three times as long as the ones I'm going to have to make for the way I'd like to do things will have to be.

quote Originally posted by Will: They're also about three times as long as the ones I'm going to have to make for the way I'd like to do things will have to be.

I understand that Will. It's just that you're so much fun to jab at

actually you'll have some advantage by using the injector ports in the TB instead of inserting them in the manifold itself. hopefully your TB have enough meat in them to enlarge for using the larger Cad injectors. my TB did not allow that option.

10.5" is actually longer than I thought it would be. I don't think for calculations it ends at the throttle blade, but rather at the end of the air "tube". So you might have some 13" of length. FWIW, a stock N* "runner to valve" length is ~16", LS1 intake runner length (unknown port to valve seat, guesstimate ~3") is 10.3".

Torque peak on both is ~4400.

lots of little gizmos to show today. This is the "little" stuff that makes everyone say "what took you so long to do that project". not realising how long it takes to design, fabricate and paint every little bracket, brace and bell-crank.
I wanted to utilize a "progressive" throttle arm, so this thing won't be quite so "on-off" on throttle response. that little wheel on the Suzuki TBs wasn't going to provide that. If you haven't noticed, the cam shaped throttle arm on most automotive TBs requires a lot of pedal travel to get the first 1/3rd or so of throttle. after that it requires progressively less pedal travel to get to full throttle. The TB on the left has the stock pulley on it, as used on the bike, but by grafting on some parts from an old Duke TB, and a few of my own, I managed to get it to work the way I wanted. this pic is just before I riveted the cam onto my created throttle bracket. see finished assy in pic at bottom:



I made up two little "Z" brackets to go between the TBs to lock them firmly together. important if you expect synchronized throttle plates. I also modified a N* throttle cable bracket to work for me. It just required some bending and welding of the stock N* piece. For the 1 5/8" long rubber tubing, to joint the TBs to the manifold, I'm using 1 3/4" hose made for fuel filler pipe connections. it works great for this application. I also realized my first real screw-up today when I fabricated a link to join the two TB banks together. the two banks of TBs face each other, the way I have them installed. this means that one throttle shaft rotates clockwise, wile the other rotates counterclockwise. I fabricated the bellcrank arms to be on the bottom of the throttle shafts of both banks of TBs. naturally, in that configuration, they "fight" each other. oh well.... just a minor foe-paw on my part which won't be too hard to remedy. rather embarrassing however.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-08-2007).]

So you'll probably have it running by tomorrow, eh?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: So you'll probably have it running by tomorrow, eh?

ya right. maybe day after tomorrow. I gotta eat and sleep sometime also

Question for all you FI guys out there. If I have a set of N* injectors with the # 17091728 on them, does that indicate the flow rating, or just the general design of the injector, which could include various flow ratings? I have a set of injectors which I believe are from a 98', but I don't know if it was a VIN 9 or VIN Y motor. this is the same # that's on the injectors in the 98 VIN 9 in my IMSA, so I'm hoping that these are also the larger ones.

Tia,
Russ544

Both. It's just a part number. Injectors are different between the years, but I don't think the 9/Y are different.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087228.html

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Both. It's just a part number. Injectors are different between the years, but I don't think the 9/Y are different. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087228.html

interesting............ veeeeeelllyy intelesting..............
thanks for the link Ryan, that helps me out. I guess I'll send these injectors out to WhitcHunter tomorrow for cleaning and testing.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-09-2007).]

Wow, nice setup! I'm impressed with your craftsmanship. Now get it running!

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--180* t-stat, cams, 96-97 intake swap, FFP pulley, A/C Idler, P/S idler, ported exhaust mani's, ported lower intake, flowmaster exhaust, EGR delete, K&N filter, Darth Chip-- --13.8 @ 99 (before cams full street trim)--
--Check out the Fiero Kingdom!--
Beater: Flat black 90 CRX with a JDM D15 VTEC <--ballin'!

Not a very "exciting" day in Russ' shop today. mostly lots of pretty boring tasks. I've been building brackets for various monitoring devices and gauges, getting the wireing sorted out, installing the inline fuel pump and lines, hooking up the radiator hoses. building the battery box, fuel "tank", etc etc.. all those things that are required to run the mule motor on the test stand. I got the exhaust plumbed as well, and many thanks to CptSnoopy for sending me a set of EX manifolds. that was very cool.
I sent the injectors off to WitchHunter Performance to be cleaned and tested, but they should be returned to me in a couple of days. I got them with a compleat manifold/TB off E-bay, so I wanted to _know_ they were performing properly for this setup. I sure wouldn't want to find out too late that I had a lean cylinder.

UPDATE: I received the injectors back today. and it's a good thing I did have them worked over. one flowed "X" on arrival at WitchHunter Performance, and they said all of them were in pretty bad shape from the old nasty fuel that had been sitting in them for who knows how many years, but they all came out pretty good regardless ( 2.5% balance), and the spray pattern is now good on all of them as well.
Average flow, after installing new filters and cleaning is ~ 19.25 lb. @ 43.5 psi test pressure (I'll be running 50.8 psi however).

I built a 2x5x1 plenum today at work, for the MAP sensor and for a fpr vacume source. I also received the WB O-2 setup from CHRF yesterday. As of this Friday, 20th, I'll officially be on vacation for a couple of weeks, so I should be able to get this thing fired up and sorted out here very soon now.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-20-2007).]

I've got a few minutes between honey dos, so I'll poke in a short update here. the wife will be working next week, wile I'm on vacation, so I'll be getting more done on the car next week I suspect

Since this is a street driven car, I needed to find a way to incorporate the PVC valve into the system, plus I still needed a vacume source for the power brakes. I wanted to keep the IAC system totally off by itself, as well as the MAP sensor system. I wanted those two items to have a nice clean vacume source all there own to avoid being confused. the PB and PVC aren't quite a smart as the other systems anyways, so I figure they can stand some confusion amongst themselves without anyone noticing . therefor.... I brazed in some 3/16" tubes into the manifold runners and then brazed on a 3/8" tube "log" for each bank of TBs. the two banks are joined at one end by a piece of 3/8" fuel line. one end of this "vacume log" now serves as a PB vacume source, wile the other end routes to the PVC valve.
As I mentioned the other day, I built a plenum for the MAP sensor and fuel pressure regulator, and that's it sitting on the valley cover, along with the IAC "spider".


once all these hoses are hooked up it gets a little busy in there see below:
"prototype" means just that, and I'm learning a great deal from this project. should I build a #2, I'll be using hose and T logs, up next to the TBs, with just one hose going down to the IAC and one to the MAP in order to keep things a little less crowded.




I thought that would do it until I remembered I still need to source one ported and one full vacume source to operate the purge canister....... if this keeps up it's gona get complicated here pretty soon

Russ544

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-22-2007).]

Today I worked over one TB to add a ported vacume source for the purge canister signal. "ported vacume" just means that the opening inside the throat of the TB (or carb) is slightly above the closed throttle plate. at idle, no vacume is present at the port, but as the throttle opens, the port is exposed more and more, and gradually provides full vacume (although not as much as a port under the throttle plate at idle). The vacume canister should only dump excess fumes into the engine at above idle conditions, so as not to upset the idle, therefore the ported vacume signal is used to tell the system when to dump its load. to creat this type of port I milled a small area above the full vacume ports and then drilled an 1/16" hole through to the throttle bore itself. it enters the bore about 3/16" above the "high" side of the throttle plate. there isn't enough meat in that area of the TB to support the 3/16" vacume tube fitting, so I just used JB weld to build it up around the new port tube. Against my own rules, I plan to dump the fumes from the vapor canister into the system at the vacume side of the IAC block. my theory being that the IAC only functions at idle, and the purge canister only functions above idle, so hopefully they will get along with one another ok. it's the simplest solution I could think of........... if it works.


During my last trial fit of the vacume system I found that there was just way too much going on under the TBs to deal with. it was a maze of hoses that was dang near impossible to get connected all at once. I was able to help that situation somewhat by eliminating all but three ports on the plenum (one for the fuel regulator vacume source and two feed lines), and making up "hose and T" vacume logs near the TBs to feed the plenum. the old holes in the box were brazed shut, and then it got cleaned up and painted. I also drilled and tapped the components of the valley cover and the cover itself, for final mounting to the engine.


This should be the final assembly now on the TBs themselves, as all the problems I've run across so far have been delt with. I still need to do some more wiring, and a couple other things, but we're getting close now..... very close

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-24-2007).]

It was the best of times... and the worst of times........ oops, sorry, wrong movie (or is it).

I've observed several amazing revelations today:
(1) An unmuffled Northstar with ITB induction system is the sexiest, wildest, most raw, adrenalin pumping sound you can imagine.
(2) I MAY have discovered a suitable induction system to actually make the Holly Commander ECU shine (but that needs more testing to fully establish as fact)
(3) I need to figure out how to post a sound clip of this thing in action. it's awsome!
(4) No matter how old I get I still never learn NOT to take ANYTHING for granted.

I spent the morning finishing up the checking, double, and triple checking of all systems, which has become my routene at the end of an involved build like this (fearing that the first startup attempt may have a bad outcome perhaps?). fluids were topped off, battery charged, gauges hooked up, nuts and bolts checked for the tenth time, etc. once I finally convinced myself that everything was ready, I turned the key to "on" and checked the fuel pressure [51 psi] and then checked for any fuel leaks [none]. the first brief twist of the key to the start position yielded no results. the second twist yielded a cough or two. with the third twist of the key it roared to life and immediately settled into a pretty nice idle wile I checked oil pressure, [65 lb] and looked for water leaks [none showing at that point]. I let it run for a few seconds and blipped the throttle a few times just to "clean it out" . If that sound doesn't give you giant goosebumps you may want to check your pulse (mine needed NO checking). I only let it run for a minute or so before shutting it down and checking for oil, fuel and water leaks. I didn't find any of the first two, but unfortunately I did find some water. it took me a wile to see where it was coming from, and it was a sick feeling when I realized it was coming from a hairline crack in the side of #7 water jacket. when the motor is cold you can't even see the crack. it's only when it gets warm and some water starts seeping out of the 2" long crack that it's visible. I guess this motor won't be going in my 36 after all .... but I think I'll be able to grind out the crack a bit and smear some JB weld on it to effect a "fix" good enough to get some test hours out of the engine for the injection setup. I'm sure glad I didn't spend 350 bucks on a Timesert kit for this motor . my butt is sore from kicking myself for not checking more closely initially. it hasn't helped, but the apparant level of success of the induction system FAR outweighs any dissapointment of not checking the block more closely.
Tomorrow I'll set up the wide band O-2 system, including the laptop, get the motor running closed loop, and wring this thing out a bit.





Russ544

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It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-27-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Russ544: Russ544

Grind open the crack & weld it, but not until the engine is disassembled again. Don't forget to heat the area with a torch to burn out any traces of coolant before striking an arc.

quote Originally posted by WAWUZAT: Grind open the crack & weld it, but not until the engine is disassembled again. Don't forget to heat the area with a torch to burn out any traces of coolant before striking an arc.

thats what I was going to type up as a suggestion when I was inerrupted by the sound of an engine revving

quote Originally posted by Erik: thats what I was going to type up as a suggestion when I was inerrupted by the sound of an engine revving

Sorry. I just can't help myself. that thing just makes _such_ cool noises that I've been standing at the "helm" reving it and making Tim Taylor sounds................. Ahrrr Ahrrr Ahrrrrrr.

quote Originally posted by WAWUZAT: Grind open the crack & weld it, but not until the engine is disassembled again. Don't forget to heat the area with a torch to burn out any traces of coolant before striking an arc.

Aluminum engine? Weld that baby! You have to pre-heat aluminum before welding anyways so it will boil away any water. If you can TIG weld you are in business. Otherwise, a good welder should be able to lay a pretty TIG weld. I use MIG and it is not so pretty but gets the job done.

Nice work on the ITB's.

quote Originally posted by Russ544: Sorry. I just can't help myself. that thing just makes _such_ cool noises that I've been standing at the "helm" reving it and making Tim Taylor sounds................. Ahrrr Ahrrr Ahrrrrrr.

LOL ...So how was I able to hear it when i was writing up a responce?? Did you embed a sound file or something??? BTW what I heard sounded sweet, very throaty with multple simultaneous notes working together sort of like a Ferrari but with that American V8 deepness in tone

Congrats Russ,

If you find that your system works to your satisfaction, can you post a required parts list?

Erik, just wondering what you have been smoking? I can't seem to get that sound bite on my computer...

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Congrats Russ, If you find that your system works to your satisfaction, can you post a required parts list? Erik, just wondering what you have been smoking? I can't seem to get that sound bite on my computer...

I am not kidding ..it freaked me out but when I was typing a responce in the box..I heard a voice commenting on the enginethen hearing the engine rev up several times. Now, it did it on my laptop and in typing this responce on my desktop , there is no sound ..I will try to capture it with audacity and then post it IF it will come up on my laptop again