Originally posted by bonzo: ...do you plan on powder coating or POR-15 these parts before they go in?
I'll probably just hit 'em with some black rustoleum.
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Originally posted by Steven Snyder: Very nice. How much travel do you have?
I ran out of wire for the welder and haven't been to the store for more. Still have to make the other side. But it should still retain just as much travel as stock. If you're asking how much the ride height can be dropped, I won't know for a bit yet.
Sorry it's taking so long. Those that know me, know I'm a tortouse! 5,000 projects, all 45% done...
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11:00 PM
Nov 15th, 2008
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
Did you ever get these bolted back into the car to check ride height, handling and comfort? It does seem like a lower cost alternative to the Held/HT tubular LCA's with adjustable coilovers, but I'm not sure about travel and ride height of your setup...
OKay okay. I finally finished the second control arm today. Tomorrow I'm going to burnout the control arm bushings so I can reuse the poly bushings that are already on the car. I'll hopefully get them in the car and take before and after pictures tomorrow. I have not ordered any Rodney Dickman lowering ball joints yet but I expect to. I'm waiting to see how the first attempt goes first. Maybe I won't have to.
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07:52 PM
CTFieroGT87 Member
Posts: 2520 From: Royal Oak, MI Registered: Oct 2002
I got them in and pulled them back out. Total drop was 3/4". I took pictures and will post them tonight.
I still have to clean up the shape of the brackets under the control arm, paint everything, get the poly bushings in the driver's side and get a set of Rodney Dickman ball joints.
Dang the stock shocks were blown and a half! No compression resistance at all and just a little bit of rebound... And the car still handles like it's on rails. I can't wait to get real shocks in it now!
Maybe I missed something, so tell me if I have this right. You started out saying that no one offers ready made replacement springs in higher rates for the 88 front end. You then use this as a reason/excuse to chop up the front end and repplace perfectly good shocks with col overs.
Sorry, I don't get it. If this was a job you (for some reason) wanted to do anyway, fine, but the answer to not being able to find particular springs is surely to just have some springs custom made. You trot in to a spring shop, hand them a stock spring, tell them the rate you want and come back in a week and pick them up - job done. At least that's the way I have always dealt with this sort of thing.
BTW, why did you want stiff springs? The stock 88 springs work very well with better shocks (I use Konis) unless you are taking the car on the track.
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10:18 AM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
It will see "some" track use. You did miss that. It's in the first post. I wanted adjustable height too. My wife likes her car to look like a 4x4 so she can go over speed bumps without worrying. When I take it to the track (or show) I'll drop it down and be able to raise it back up when done. I'll do the same for the shocks... Twist a knob at the track and twist it back when done.
But more importantly, I don't know what spring rate I'll end up with and what compression/rebound settings I'll need to compliment those springs. Rather than going back to a custom spring shop again and again I now can buy a few sets of cheap springs and swap them in and out. Stiffer springs would result in a higher ride height. The coilovers easily take care of that. The double adjustable shocks mean that I only have to buy one set of shocks for whatever spring I eventually end up with. It's a toy man! Now I'll have more nobs to twist. That's what it's all about.
*** EDIT - And in case it matters to anybody, I didn't hack up my originals. They came of an 88 coupe with bad drivetrain, brakes lines that were rusted through under the battery, with a ratty body. Definately not a car that would ever see the road again. Everyting bolted on without modification of the crossmember.
[This message has been edited by 2002z28ssconv (edited 02-16-2009).]
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01:56 PM
Feb 18th, 2009
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
I've got a few questions for you: 1. It looks like your spring adjustment screw is fairly close to the bottom. Do you have more adjustability to lower the car any further? 2. With your current adjustment (3 3/8" wheel gap), where is your shock in terms of stroke? Is it close to the center point between the 9" min and 13" max lengths? 3. How is you ride quality with the 375 lb/in springs? Is it very stiff, or streetable?
Thanks.
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11:32 PM
May 1st, 2009
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
Sorry, I haven't check this thread in a while... I didn't drive on them. I just did a test fit and with the adjustment at the lowest possible ride height it was only 7/8" lower than stock. That's not low enough to satisfy me so that's where I stopped. I'll still have to send off the springs to be retempered at least 1" shorter. The shock is at the dead center of its stroke though. The suspension won't move enough in either direction to bottom out the shock's travel. So the shock is perfect.
Unfortunately I had to completely disassemble and reassemble two outboard boat motors and a few other issues of higher priority. Now I'm thinking of moving our 3800 swap back up to the top of the list. But don't worry, I'll update this list when I return to this project.
I like this setup...especially the DAdjustable QA1's...very nice shock. However, what are the part numbers? Did the OP use the DDR3955 or the DDR3855 (8" vs 9")? Has anyone else attempted this w/ the QA1 pieces, and if so, w/ what part numbers?
[This message has been edited by ScotMac (edited 03-19-2010).]
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06:40 PM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
Then call up the guy at Blue Coil Spring and have him build you a set of springs. I would go with 6" length for a 350# spring, 6.5"-7" for a 250# spring. That will give you some adjustability. Tell him you want a conical spring (the top will be wider than the bottom). It might help to reference it as a "barrel" spring cut in half. The top should have an ID of 3.5" and 2.5" ID at the bottom. Here is the QA1 version. I don't recall how much he said he would charge but it was dirt cheap.
Then call up RCC Specialty Products and see if he'd be willing to sell you just the brackets to weld in to your control arms. Of course, if you don't need all the adjustability that a DA shock offers, just get everything from RCC for $400 - $500.
I have yet to send my springs off to Blue Coil Spring to get them shortened to 6 or 7 inches.
[This message has been edited by 2002z28ssconv (edited 03-19-2010).]
You probably got the mustang springs, instead of the GM springs. The mustang ones come in the 375# *and* the 8" length (vs the 350# and 10/11" for the GM):
And it looks like the single adjustable shocks might come in an *even smaller* length, and maybe allow the t-bar to be put on top of bottom a-arm. And then we would still need a reinforcement piece, but it would only be a simple flat round piece w/ a hole cut in it (as suggested by others previously). ie, we could get a simpler mounting and reinforcement piece, w/ just as much strength, since it would the entire t-bar against the new flat reinforcement piece.
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04:44 AM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
My shocks are DGMP1's. That was the only part number I remember ever seeing.
And now that you mention it, I think the it was a Mustang kit. I must have just blocked the F*** stuff from my memory.
The shock lengths weren't the limiting factor though. The limiting factor was the spring height.
If you get a shorter spring (which I haven't looked into yet - too many other higher priorities) you might be able to keep the shock above the stock mounting point on the lower control arm. But just using a flat piece to reinforce the mount will still be putting pressure on the same weak area unless you weld the top of the reinforcement to the spring perch which is actually above the reinforcement. I'm not saying it won't work. I'm just saying that you'd need to be pretty confident in your welds. But I guess that if the welds broke you'd still have the weaker lower piece to keep the failure from being immediately catastrophic.
The height adjusting nut was all the way down as far as it would go when the measurements were taken.
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11:25 AM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
And the reason I went with the spherical bushing was to avoid any loading of the sides since the shock will be about impossible to get into just the right orientation to be able to pivot without side load on the T-bar sleeves with every movement of the control arm. I didn't want to be replacing the bushings every year. We put a lot of miles on the car. Daily driver.
And the reason I went with the spherical bushing was to avoid any loading of the sides since the shock will be about impossible to get into just the right orientation to be able to pivot without side load on the T-bar sleeves with every movement of the control arm. I didn't want to be replacing the bushings every year. We put a lot of miles on the car. Daily driver.
DGMP is the kit number. We need to know the shock part number, so we can know what we talking about, when we compare how your shock fit.
Yes, the spring would need to be smaller, if your adjuster is *ALREADY* all the down. The only issue w/ that is IF QA1 actually makes a 7"! The shock being smaller will allow me to hv the same range as yours, even though i moved the bottom a-arm to fully below the shock.
The flat piece would be welded into and would be relying on the exact same area that the top portion of your bracket is welded into, which is where the majority of the support for your bracket is coming from. I am not trying to get into a war of which is best. I just like the simplicity of the t-bar approach. In general the strength of either approach is how large of a flat section you add to that round area, and how well you weld it in.
If your kit designator is DGMP, then you didn't get the mustang kit. But maybe you just got the mustang spring, since as you said, it is 375. Though summit and jegs are not big on swapping parts on these kits. My exp is they just force you to order the kit *and* the other part (double the amount of springs!).
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12:33 PM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
No argument brother. Just trying to save you some time.
I just didn't know if you were taking into account the lip that fits inside the spring to hold it in place. If you were to weld a flat piece on top of that, you'll loose almost an inch. That was my point I was trying to make. I think that it could be done with the T-bar if you strengthen the control arm enough.
I no longer see the kit that I ordered. I got the shortest conical spring QA1 had. I REALLY want to encourage you to check out Blue Coil Spring though. He can make what ever spring height, style and size that you want.
Thanks. I might just go w/ the mustang kit, since it much cheaper, and has the 8" springs (though i only get Single adj), and see how the spring works, and then if a problem, switch to the blue coil stuff.
One more question for you, if you don't mind. How does the 375# feel for you and your wife? I ask, because i'm thinking it is too light. Mine is for a racing application.
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04:34 PM
Mar 21st, 2010
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
I only put them in to test the ride height. I took them back out and haven't changed springs and cleaned up the control arms yet. I didn't drive on them.
But what I can tell you is to DEFINITELY get stiffer springs for a race application. In the front anyway. Others will argue but I prefer leaving the back as soft as possible and big sway bar and springs in the front. That seens to keep the driven wheels planted. The front might get pushy I'd rather have understeer in a mid-engined car. For the Camaro? Let me "steer with the rear" all day long. Not the Fiero, too unforgiving. When I bought new lowering springs for my race car seen in one of the very first pics, WCF talked me into 350# springs because the car weighed less than 2300 pounds. I should have gone with the 450's or probably even 550 or higher. When I was under heavy braking the front would dive so much that the tires were wearing off the insides of the front fenders.
Thus the other reason for coilovers, gonna do a lot of racing? swap the springs. Done? Swap them back so the wife doesn't complain about her kidneys hurting.
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09:11 AM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
I just remembered that I saved a copy of the 2008 QA1 catalog. So I found some good info for you...
I got the 3955's. If you're mounting the shock above the control arm I'd say go with the 3855's so they don't bottom out.
For that matter, the 3855's would probably be a better choice either way. I'd be much more concerned about bottoming the shock out than I would be about hitting full extension.
[This message has been edited by 2002z28ssconv (edited 03-21-2010).]
Funny, this link is to what looks to be pretty much exactly the same package that RCC sells as a custom front-end for the fiero, at $340 frm summit vs $495 frm RCC:
It looks like a good kit, except i prefer the (more expensive) single or double adjustable QA1 shocks. QA1 originally claimed that the adjustable shocks would not work w/ that lower mounting bracket. That doesn't make sense, since it is simply a spherical bearing w/ a bushing and a bolt thru it. They claimed that the adjustable shock eyelet would not fit the metal bushings/tubes. Which doesn't appear to be correct, since there appears to be about 1/4" on each side of the shock eyelet for the economy shocks, as can be seen here:
But in general, qa1/summit/jegs/autofab don't allow substitions on the QA1 kits. So, the only way to get the adjustable shocks w/ that bottom bracket mount is to order, for example, one of the mustang kits, like this (or the GM kit 2002z28 used):
And then swap out the bottom mount to the bracketed one. The only problem is that qa1 sells ALL of the parts for that bracket mount separately. The bracket is $76/each, the bushings/tubes are ~$12/each, and the spherical bearings are $7.50/pair. So, that is 2 x $76 + 2 x $12 + $7.50 = $183.50. Plus $382 for the mustang kit and we're at $565. Hmmm...and that is just for the *single adjustable shocks. For the double adjustables, i think i can get the shocks for $525/pair, plus the $183.50 for the bottom bracket mount, and we have $708.50!! Hmmm
[This message has been edited by ScotMac (edited 03-24-2010).]
5,000 projects, all 45% done...
I took pictures and will post them tonight.
