aka how to spend $800 without even trying.

So, taking inspiration from Russ, and a couple flanges which he so graciously cut for me, it's time to start on my independent throttle body project. Please note that I stay pretty busy, so there might be months or years between updates. Don't yell at me.

I started out by purchasing a couple GSXR 600 throttle bodies on ebay. Eventually, I decided if I am going to do this mod, I might as well go for broke and get the biggest throttle bodies I can afford. $400 later, I have 2 sets of 2000 Suzuki GSXR 1300 Hayabusa throttle bodies. I got pretty lucky, as these tend to go for $200-250 ea. These throttle bodies are pretty big. They are tapered, 50mm at the inlet, 46mm at the butterfly, 42mm at the injector end:



Next, some 2" aluminized tubing, 2" long, cut at 20 degrees, and made to fit the square ports:


The aluminized tubing is cheap and I'm using it for practice. I already have 16ga stainless tubing here and have started working on that. It is much tougher to work and doesn't like not being round, so it's taking more work with a vice and C-clamp to get it into the port shape.

The throttle bodies are truly independent, and the plan is to space them from 80mm to 102mm (which I think is the N* bore spacing). Here's what I'm working on so far:


The linkage arms are removable, so the plan here is to cut new ones out of steel to compensate for the additional spacing, and have them cobalt plated for rust protection and durability.


These throttle bodies have dual vacuum ports on all the throttle bodies. This is perfect, so I can run 8 ports to the MAP sensor, and 8 ports to the IAC, brake booster, and vacuum accessories to keep the two signals separate. The plan is to find a way to utilize the injector ports with N* injectors. It looks like the ports will have to be drilled out, and possibly "shimmed" with a larger O-ring.

I knew you were concidering this So the injector holes on the Haybusa TBs have enough material to bore out to fit Caddy injectors? IIRC , Russ said that the early --00 - 02 or something along those yrs Suzukis TBs have holes that do have enough material so you wouldnt have to incorporate bosses on the manifolds

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 05-19-2008).]

The <1000cc suzuki throttle bodies probably don't even have to be modified. It looks like a caddy injector would drop right in. The Hayabusa throttles might need some drilling and some shimming.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: The <1000cc suzuki throttle bodies probably don't even have to be modified. It looks like a caddy injector would drop right in. The Hayabusa throttles might need some drilling and some shimming.

Do you know what years those would be? BTW those are some big TBs ..I take it you would be camming the N*.

Where did you get the flanges or did you make them? As mentioned in the other thread I am using the stock caddy exhaust flanges so I don't hve to spend any time making them and it would be great if the intake flanges are availible for when I do my ITB setup.

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 05-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Erik: Do you know what years those would be? BTW those are some big TBs ..I take it you would be camming the N*

2000-2002. GSXR 600s have a butterfly dia of 38mm, 750s 40mm, 1000s 40mm(??) Don't quote me on anything but the 600's I have here.

The butterfly on the busa TBs is 46mm which matches the intake valve area. It narrows down to 42mm, but I think that will help with torque across the board, without restricting flow very much. I'm just going to see what it will do on a stock northstar. I have "before" dyno runs already. Wouldn't it be interesting to see it pick up 40hp from no other mods? It won't, but you never know.....

I bought the flanges from Russ.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 05-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: 2000-2002. GSXR 600s have a butterfly dia of 38mm, 750s 40mm, 1000s 40mm(??) Don't quote me on anything but the 600's I have here. The butterfly on the busa TBs is 46mm which matches the intake valve area. It narrows down to 42mm, but I think that will help with torque across the board, without restricting flow very much. I'm just going to see what it will do on a stock northstar. I have "before" dyno runs already. Wouldn't it be interesting to see it pick up 40hp from no other mods? It won't, but you never know..... I bought the flanges from Russ.

I bet you would see an increase in torque if there was a power increase with the trumpet style increaeing velocity but maybe not very much HP with the stock cams. Even at 42 mm per cylinder has got to be more area than the one stock Caddy TB

Maybe Russ will make me a set

quote Originally posted by Erik: Even at 42 mm per cylinder has got to be more area than the one stock Caddy TB

Yes, but consider that the stock N* throttle body is supplying 8 cylinders more or less continuously via the plenum, whereas TB-per-cylinder flow is highly intermittent and "peaky." Back in the Can-Am racer days, a 58 mm throttle body per cylinder was pretty typical. Sizing the TB bore to match the intake valve area seems like a good place to start.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-20-2008).]

This would be the perfect addition to the twin cam aluminum N* engines!

Any idea on HP gains? I know the sound alone would be worth it, lol!

Could you eventually make these as a kit, for different N* applications (cammed or not, etc)?

Added to favorites.

------------------
~Michael

Project IMSA Formula Coming Soon!
'85 GT 4sp white - SOLD | | '85 2M6 Auto red - SOLD | | '84 2M4 bare chassis - SOLD
Crap, I'm out of Fieros! Time to buy another!! - "Your mileage may vary."

Okay, here's the latest update. I cut the new runners out of 2" stainless tubing. Their length came out to about 2.25" from base of flange to top. I tacked them in place on the flange. Next, I drilled the throttle bodies to accept a 6mm stainless threaded rod, and spaced them to 102mm by using 0.5" OD, 0.25" ID aluminum tubing 22.1mm long. (I chucked the tubing in my drill press and used a hacksaw blade as a make-shift lathe to cut the tubing square)


I installed the stock hayabusa intake boots (they are a stretch to get to 2") and behold:







Total assembly is 6.75" tall. I need to order one more 6mm rod for the top part (the gaps you see). The gsxr throttle bodies only had 2 rods, but the busa uses 3.



Next I need to "massage" the tubing to fit snugly into the port opening and weld it all the way through.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 05-30-2008).]

looks good ..have you tried your tig out yet?

I tacked it together with the tig.

I'll be welding it on the inside to spare the world my ugly welds.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I tacked it together with the tig. I'll be welding it on the inside to spare the world my ugly welds.

if they are ugly then they will not flow

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I tacked it together with the tig. I'll be welding it on the inside to spare the world my ugly welds.

Proly a lot better looking than mine.

if you want bring them over or i can come over and show you how to use the tig if you'd like?

I just need practice. My 20CF tank is still at 1800psi. I probably don't have 30 minutes worth of experience on the TIG yet. On top of that, it's a $300 harbor freight TIG with scratch start. Still, I'm welding better than I ever have before:



It's not a perfect roll of dimes, but it's better than my normal chewed bubble gum! heh

Now I just need to figure out how to keep the warping down. The center of the flange popped up about 1/8". I think I can fix that if I heat it up with a torch, no?

Don't know why, but PFF picture server is down, so this is on imageshack.

on something like that if you can get it flush i'd almost try to weld it with no filler. let me know if you want to try my lincoln. it's a pretty good entry level tig. i wish i would have got something like the syncrowave 300, but you make mistakes.

the best thing you can do is just run beads. the more practice the better you understand how the metal will flow. if he's at 1800lbs you haven't used it much. what is your flow set at?

Do youself a favor, ditch the tungsten that came with the welder if you haven't already...it is junk. Go to your local welding supply store and buy some good stuff. Next, clean the metal better before you weld. TIG requires the metal to be pristine.

To reduce the warpage, try welding small sections, like 3/8" -1/2", letting the part cool in between.

You can get decent results with the HF welder if you take your time and pay attention to the details.

flow is 15 cfh. The best welds were not using filler. If it had a HF start and foot pedal, it would be an awesome welder. But it's still great for the price. I give it 1.5 thumbs up.

What do you recommend for an electrode? I think these are 1/16" thoriated.

BTW, chucked the flange in the oven at 475, took it out, finished welding it, and the thing is perfectly flat now. *shrug*

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 05-31-2008).]

for welding steel i don't really clean anything. make sure it's not rusted out or anything, but i won't go out of my way to clean it. stainless sometimes is coated. i'll take that off if it. the only thing the cleaning has to be done on is aluminum. haven't welded titanium so i can't comment. aluminum has to have the oxidation taken off and no oils on it. i'll usually clean with some steel wool and water then wipe is clean with perk or some type of spirts.

ryan you're heading in the right direction. practice is the only real way to get better. if you want to borrow my tig you're more then welcome to. i'm debating on getting a new one :P also if you need anything let me know.

...any updates Ryan?

Bump*

heh.... been really busy with work. Along with a computer crash that is going to be costly...

But lets see, I got the intake runners welded. And I started work on spacing the throttle bodies. I can go into more detail in a bit.

Late-day bump! Pics to follow..........

Edit:

Used this stainless steel threaded rod to hold the newly spaced throttle bodies together: http://www.smallparts.com/T...86711&pf_rd_s=left-4

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 03-01-2010).]

Here's a pic of an unadulterated throttle body:



Although I originally planned on cutting out new linkages so that they were one piece, instead I just welded on 0.75" x 1.14" (I think?) x 0.125" steel extensions on. This is what the new linkage looks like next to a stock one:

Haha, holy thread resurrection. As it turns out, I'm debating a turbo setup. If I don't do that, ITBs it is. Seems like a good project to figure out how to TIG weld with, eh?

wow i like this thread i can see these used on 3.4 dohc and even 2.8 using the lower intake and leaving the injectors in the stock location and just puting a plug where the injector was on them.

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 03-04-2010).]

When you said

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: there might be months or years between updates

you weren't kidding!
Looks good, interesting idea to get a 'cheap' ITB setup.

quote Originally posted by kwagner: When you said you weren't kidding! Looks good, interesting idea to get a 'cheap' ITB setup.

I don't mess around!

Pics of my "DIY" lathe... aka the drill press turned on its side with a hacksaw...

Here's the finished throttle linkages, ready to be sanded and polished for their next step: zinc plating.



Now, originally I was going to cobalt coat them, but at $89 for the caswell kit, I couldn't justify purchasing it for just those parts. So I'm going to plate it myself.

Step 1) Acquire battery acid from Napa (only place that sells it.... and only by the 5 gallon box it seems)... I already had it, so I guess that's a freebie!


Step 2) Acquire zinc... Some guy I knew told me to sand down modern pennies to get to the zinc underneath. I didn't do this, because it's illegal. You shouldn't either. Shame on you for even thinking about it!

Step 3) Mix about 15% acid to 85% water, and throw in the zinc. Add acid to water, wear gloves and glasses, keep baking soda on hand, yadda yadda.

Step 4) Wait for zinc to dissolve and bubbles to stop (reaction has completed).. Keep throwing in zinc until that happens.

Step 4a) You now have Zinc Sulfate and water. Keep your gloves and glasses on.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 03-06-2010).]

Parts immediately after plating:


After some spit 'n polish:


They are kind of textured like the crappy hot dipped galvanized nails you get at the store, but I'm okay with that I guess...

I've been thinking a lot about this, and I think I am going to paint them with black ceramic high temp paint as well. The lack of zinc in the corners worries me...

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 03-07-2010).]

I don't know what the working temperatures are, maybe too low for an engine compartment,
but Kydex(sp?) is an mold able sheet plastic that many use for making custom molded holsters
and knife sheathes. The temperature that you bake it to maluability is high enough that it is highly
NOT RECOMMENDED to use the item to be protected as a buck, use a facsimile instead.
So I'm thinking somewhere between 200 + 450 maybe? Not sure.
If it'd work, I'd carve out a wooden buck(smaller by the thickness of the Kydex) heat up an
appropriately sized sheet and quickly drape it over and pack it into the contours.


Norm

carbon fiber

are the TBs spaced farther apart now that they have been aligned with the N* ports? if yes, how are the linkages extended for turning all plates at the same equal amount?

will it still operate the same with one TB lobbed off?

what is being done for the TPS sensor? how will it work for the seperate banks?

have you calculated to make sure the TBs will flow enough for each individule port? im sure they flow far more than enough haha.

so many questions... making a ITB setup for my engine would be a lot of fun. and i would get that lope back in my idle

------------------
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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: are the TBs spaced farther apart now that they have been aligned with the N* ports? if yes, how are the linkages extended for turning all plates at the same equal amount? will it still operate the same with one TB lobbed off? what is being done for the TPS sensor? how will it work for the seperate banks? have you calculated to make sure the TBs will flow enough for each individule port? im sure they flow far more than enough haha. so many questions... making a ITB setup for my engine would be a lot of fun. and i would get that lope back in my idle

yes they're farther apart. The linkages were extended with 3/4" steel and welded. It would work the same with 1-4 throttle bodies. They are universal. I will be using the stock hayabusa TPS sensor, it should work just fine. A 2000 hayabusa has 175hp, which means these throttles should be good for 350 naturally aspirated horsepower. BTW, an independent throttle body setup will *eliminate* lope, not create it. Lope happens when a bit of exhaust comes out the intake port and gets sucked back in another cylinder on its intake stroke. ITB eliminates that. That's why ferrari's can idle at 1000 rpm with such gnarly cams.

ahhh ok that makes sense. i had a plenum build with a LT1 TB and each throttle blade fed to a separate bank. i had it confused. i had some lope with my cam and that style of uim. if you had one bank of TBs in its own housing case like that pic up above, wouldnt it be able to create a lope? or no?

I was fortunate to see Russ' ITB'd Northstar, and was very impressed. Even if it doesn't make a darn difference in power, the intake sound and under hood look will be worth it.