Some of you remember this thread a while back about swapping two hayabusa engines into a fiero, and the unfortunate ending. I've been trying to decide what engine swap to do in my car. I've considered every engine that's been done and even a few that haven't. I really like the idea of a 'superbike' engine: the high revs, the sound, the size, and the hp-per-liter ratios. Certainly there are easier ways to achieve the same power goals, but where's the fun in that? Power is not the solitary goal of this project.

I have no delusions about my abilities; I know I'll need the help of others in order to pull this off. I haven't used a welder before, although I have done brazing. I'm picking up a welder soon to learn on some scrap (and there's a few people in the area I can learn from). Before getting to implementation, though, first I need to see if my design is sound. I'd appreciate the help of the engineers on the forum Here is my idea so far:

• Use a single engine, 750-1000cc. I've found these are much cheaper than the larger engines, but only put out a little less horsepower. Also generally they rev higher. The specific engine depends on what good deals I find, compared with redline and max hp. I've found a few late 90s/early 00s gsxr 750's for fairly cheap around here. ~120hp and a redline over 13,000rpm makes it a decent starting point. Of course if someone handed me a free hayabusa, I wouldn't turn it down
  
• Turbocharge (and intercool) the setup after everything is working. I've seen good results from turbocharging these small engines as evidenced on youtube (here's a few examples. Over 200rwhp!).
  
• Use both the motorcycle's transmission and the fiero's getrag, linked together with a coupler over the getrag's input shaft splines and the bike's output shaft sprocket. This is the part I'm unsure about. It seems like it should work given the right material was used to make the coupler.
  
  Why two transmissions? A few reasons. First, the output shafts and mounting for the getrag were made for the fiero, so no sourcing of axles and differentials is necessary. Second, it provides a reverse gear (several, actually). Third, it gets rid of the chain and any problems that could cause. Fourth, it allows the most use of the engine's high redline.
  
  One thing I always liked to do in the Gran Turismo games was to customize my gear ratios until I had the optimum setup for a given track, maximizing acceleration while allowing for the highest speed I'd encounter. With a standard transmission, you have a single final gear, a compromise between performance and economy, acceleration and top speed. With two transmissions, you essentially allow for a variable final ratio, letting you choose the best setup for a given situation. Using captfiero's transmission spreadsheet, inputting ratios from a gsxr 750 I found, and using the 5 speed getrag from the fiero, I get the following information (assuming 13500rpm redline for bike):
  Edit: With my new transmission and engine I have made some changes to the table:
  

  code:

  ---

  
  Description GSXR +1st +2nd +3rd +4th +5th
  MPH @ Redline
  in 1st            26   36   44   55   62
  in 2nd            35   47   58   72   82
  in 3rd            43   57   71   88   100
  in 4th            49   66   82   102  116
  in 5th            55   74   91   114  129
  in 6th            59   80   99   123  140
  
  (numbers truncated for formatting purposes)
  

  ---

  
  Basically an option for every occasion: 1/4 mile, road racing/autox, stoplight to stoplight, or just cruising down the highway. Both shifters would be functional from inside the cabin, the getrag's H pattern and the motorcycle's sequential shifter below it. The sequential shifter would be removable/hideable for unfamiliar drivers, in which case the car would act as a normal 5-speed. The weight of a getrag is a small price to pay for the versatility it brings.
  
• The clutch and flywheel would only be between the engine and its transmission. I don't see a need for a second set between the two transmissions.
  
• An adapter plate would need to be made so that the motorcycle engine would line up with the getrag transmission. This is made slightly more difficult by the fact that the bike's transmission is recessed compared to the engine (see this as an example).
  
• Solid-mount the getrag and the engine, with poly for the cradle. Would this eliminate the need for an adapter plate between engine and transmission, or would that put too much stress on the system?
  
• Fuel would depend on how the fueling is done on the bike, ie the pressure and flow rate it is expecting. Most likely the stock fiero tank would be eliminated, and a fuel cell with the bike's pump would be used.
  
• If the engine is liquid-cooled (most sportbike ones are), the stock fiero radiator could be used to increase the cooling capactiy. Most bikes seem to have small radiators (limited space after all), I would think using the fiero's radiator or even one slightly smaller would help cooling quite a lot.
  

So, engineers and gurus of the fiero world, would this design work? Any areas of concern not addressed that need to be? I'm not an expert. If there's changes I need to make, let me know. If the idea is complete bunk and dangerous and should never be attempted in a million years, tell me (and why). I appreciate constructive criticism. Thanks in advance

[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 03-13-2010).]

All the cars at the auto thrill show at Disney Studios in Florida are powered with motorcycle engines. If you are planning a visit this year go to the pits and ask to take a look.



The stunt cars in Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show are highly-modified Opel brand cars. Though they appear stock, they are reinforced with a rally car roll cage for driver safety. They weigh less than half that of a standard production car, but they're twice as powerful. Propelled by a 1300 cc, 150 horsepower motorcycle engine, these cars have a unique gear system: 4 forward gears and 4 reverse gears—useful for quick getaways out of town… backwards!


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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-01-2009).]

only problem I see is if you are using the Motorcycle clutch it will burn out quickly! it is designed for about 500-600 total vehicle weight not the 2k plus of a Fiero. As said about the cars at Disney they are about half the weight of the factory car so that is how it is able to work out for them.

If you wanted to use both clutches I don't think it would help much but you could mount the clutch lever vertical on the shifter handle for the bike motor. So you disengage the bike clutch when you grab the lever, or mount it on the steering column like a paddle shifter.

Dennis, thanks for the info. I've read up on some other car-cycle projects but didn't know about that one.

Thanks for bringing up the clutch, I had forgotten to mention it. The weight difference is an area of concern; however, this is also another area where having two transmissions can be helpful. When the getrag is in 1st, the cycle's output is multiplied by a factor of around 3.6 over what it normally would be in a bike. I would think then that the stress on the clutch would be equivalent for a vehicle weighing 3.6 times as much. The example GSX-R weighs about 444lbs wet. Add a 200lb rider, and you're at ~650. Multiplied by 3.6 comes out to about 2340lbs. I'm unsure what the maximum load (rider weight) a typical sportbike is designed for. That can change the results quite a bit. Of course lighter is better with any car. There will be some components that get removed, but it won't drastically affect the overall weight that much. I'll have to look into high performance clutches.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: All the cars at the auto thrill show at Disney Studios in Florida are powered with motorcycle engines. If you are planning a visit this year go to the pits and ask to take a look. The stunt cars in Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show are highly-modified Opel brand cars. Though they appear stock, they are reinforced with a rally car roll cage for driver safety. They weigh less than half that of a standard production car, but they're twice as powerful. Propelled by a 1300 cc, 150 horsepower motorcycle engine, these cars have a unique gear system: 4 forward gears and 4 reverse gears—useful for quick getaways out of town… backwards!

I saw that!! That was an amazing show.

Weekend afternoon bump for more feedback

Sounds like a neat idea, keep us posted. If you had 30 grand laying around needing something do, you go this route.


I need to win the lottery.

well, one issue I see is the motor normally sits in a foward angle, and the chain sproket is in the rear. I don;t think you will have enough room to get the motor/tranny assembly far enough foward to mate directly with the getrag and still clear the firewall. Reposistioning the motor vertically might make it, but I believe that will effect the oiling system for both the motor and tranny, and the clutch which I think is a wet clutch (not sure on that part)
That is not insurmountable, the easiest being if you can repostion the motor, if not, then get the chain drive they use on one of the transverse auto's and adapt that to run from the sprocket foward, which would require fabbing up some interesting plates, and support bearing assemblies.
Anyway you look at it, you are going to have to do some interesting machining, as even the coupler will have to be custom made.

There are some better options out there..

Yugo comes to mind for me... maybe a metro? Weight is basically insurmountable when ti comes to a fiero and a 200hp motor... it will just be turd slow, and get 10mpg, if the clutches do not burn out first.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: well, one issue I see is the motor normally sits in a foward angle, and the chain sproket is in the rear. I don;t think you will have enough room to get the motor/tranny assembly far enough foward to mate directly with the getrag and still clear the firewall. Reposistioning the motor vertically might make it, but I believe that will effect the oiling system for both the motor and tranny, and the clutch which I think is a wet clutch (not sure on that part) That is not insurmountable, the easiest being if you can repostion the motor, if not, then get the chain drive they use on one of the transverse auto's and adapt that to run from the sprocket foward, which would require fabbing up some interesting plates, and support bearing assemblies. Anyway you look at it, you are going to have to do some interesting machining, as even the coupler will have to be custom made.

It really depends on the engine. Some are pretty slanted, others not. I was planning on mounting the engine vertical if it turned out to be necessary. I'm not sure on the oiling issues, it would really depend on how much tilting was necessary. As an example, look at this cutaway of a kawasaki zx10r. Yes, it will require some interesting pieces, which is why I've been looking around at CNC shops and such. Also, the coupler might not be as bad as I thought. I figured the sprocket was a press fit on the bike's output shaft, but it seems that at least some bikes have a splined output shaft that the sprocket goes on.

I have been thinking about the same thing, as I love bikes
I was dreaming about using 2 R1 engines on for each wheel.
But its only a dream as I have on idea how it could be done but Im going to be watching your thread with intrest.
Good Luck

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2004 yamaha r1
1987 fiero gt

I've been back and forth on whether to pursue this idea. So far, curiosity has won out. I have to see if it's doable.

According to these charts, the engines that would most fit my goal are as-close-to-recent-as-possible model year 1000cc engines from the Big Four: Yamaha R1, Suzuki GSXR1000, Honda CBR1000, and Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R. They have made lots of improvements in recent years, as evidenced by the fact that today a 600cc engine can make the power of a 1000cc engine from 10 years ago. Hopefully this trend will continue and I could swap in a better engine in a few years There's a few local bike salvage yards that I will be checking into in a week or so.

As for the coupler, I may have found a solution. It turns out it could be the same solution that drag racers have been using for years to mate transmissions and rear ends that do not normally go together. Here's an example. Depending on the shaft size and spline count, I may be able to buy a set and be done with it.

theres a u tube video i love ..kids got a smart car with a busa motor..awesome performance

My understanding is that you would actively shift with the Getrag. You would only shift the bike transmissions to change your overall ratio.

If that is correct, you have way too many bike ratios too far apart. For different venues, the change in ratios needed is much more subtle. I’d be you’d wind up only using two of the bike gears at most.

In the scenario I describe above, you would have no need for the bike clutches because you would only be shifting the bike transmission while stationary. If this is so, I see no need to be able to control the bike transmissions from the driver’s seat.

Wouldn’t it be easier and way lighter to use one drive train to drive each rear wheel?
You’d have to have your clutches carefully adjusted to engage together and your throttles well synchronized but heck, I don’t think you’re talking about a daily driver here.

I a musical sense, the sound would be strange. The two engines would only have the same pitch while traveling in a straight line. In a gentle bend it would sound like two horribly out of tune musicians. In an autocross the sound would have to be entertaining indeed.

quote Originally posted by gem1138: My understanding is that you would actively shift with the Getrag. You would only shift the bike transmissions to change your overall ratio. If that is correct, you have way too many bike ratios too far apart. For different venues, the change in ratios needed is much more subtle. I’d be you’d wind up only using two of the bike gears at most. In the scenario I describe above, you would have no need for the bike clutches because you would only be shifting the bike transmission while stationary. If this is so, I see no need to be able to control the bike transmissions from the driver’s seat. Wouldn’t it be easier and way lighter to use one drive train to drive each rear wheel? You’d have to have your clutches carefully adjusted to engage together and your throttles well synchronized but heck, I don’t think you’re talking about a daily driver here. I a musical sense, the sound would be strange. The two engines would only have the same pitch while traveling in a straight line. In a gentle bend it would sound like two horribly out of tune musicians. In an autocross the sound would have to be entertaining indeed.

This build is designed around a single engine, not the two of the linked build in the original post. That's a bit too much for me right now, but maybe down the road. I agree with you that looking from an overall standpoint there's more gears than would be generally useful. I'd prefer less gears but I already have a getrag in the car so I might as well make due with it for starters. The getrag will be used less than the motorcycle's transmission, for two reasons. First, an H pattern requires more movement than a straight up or down. Second, the MPH@redline ranges are less spread out if the motorcycle transmission is mainly used instead of the getrag (2nd gear is a good example. Shifting the getrag, it would be 35-173mph. shifting the motorcycle it would be 32-106). I really don't expect to use anything over third gear in the getrag for anything other than economy on a highway, which (being a mainly track car) will be a rare occurance.

The getrag will be shifted when necessary to move the range up or down as to current conditions (and when reverse is necessary). Here's how I see it working:
- Car starts parked. Both transmissions in first. Pedal to the floor, run through the motorcycle's gears. Once in top gear of the motorcycle, the getrag will be shifted up a gear. While not really in the best order and a bit of a jump, it's the simplest thing to do. Now the speed range is shifted up. If I need to slow down, I run down the motorcycle's gears, then back up as I gain speed. So the idea is the getrag changes the operating range of the motorcycle to try to maintain peak torque at all times. I expect to shift both transmissions on a track.

I'm all for imaginative thinking & odd swaps, but:
The bike trasmission & clutch are not going to hold up in a 2500 lb. car. Maybe if you took it real easy, but why build something you can't enjoy? Plus, the torque is not enough. You'd have to keep it revved up all the time, & shift gears constantly to keep it in the upper RPM range. Like pull off in bike 1st/getrag 3rd, go through the bike gears, shitf getrag to 4th/downshift the bike several times, go through the bike gears, shift getrag to 5th/downshift bike several times, go through the bike gears - you'd be shifting about 14 to 16 times, not including downshifting the bike several times every time you upshifted the getrag. Much better to loose the getrag (& it's weight), & lighten the car in every way possible (& I'm talking about EVERY way possible). Then maybe a bike trans & clutch would hold up a little better.
Just my 2 cents...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

That's not meth! That's Professor Cuyler's liquid miracle wake up claificational get thin & steal sterio equipment stay up for four days & lose your teeth juice tonic!

1st: http://www.hawkmachine.com/Parts.htm#20

http://www.novaracing.co.uk...ine-coupling-kit.htm
Found them while working on a project of my own.

2nd: Why bother with the Getrag? Scale the FD on the bike's transmission down to a more reasonable top speed, and there you go. How often will you go above 130-140 MPH? Sure, an R1 might be able to hit 180, but I doubt many Fieros do. Ditch the control nightmare and the 80-120 pounds that go with it.

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.
You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped its mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs. (Leader of the Insurgency)

[This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 06-24-2009).]

When you get done you'll have a nearly worthless narrow torque band for 2500 lbs, and certainly no fun to drive at reasonable levels.

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: 1st: http://www.hawkmachine.com/Parts.htm#20 http://www.novaracing.co.uk...ine-coupling-kit.htm Found them while working on a project of my own.

Thanks for the links, haven't seen those before.

quote 2nd: Why bother with the Getrag? Scale the FD on the bike's transmission down to a more reasonable top speed, and there you go. How often will you go above 130-140 MPH? Sure, an R1 might be able to hit 180, but I doubt many Fieros do. Ditch the control nightmare and the 80-120 pounds that go with it.

You're right, it probably won't see those speeds very often. The getrag is used 1) because I have it already ($$), 2) it has reverse, which the motorcycle lacks and saves me from coming up with something for that, and 3) it already has axles that are a perfect fit from the wheels to the transmission. Basically it solves three issues for free. I'm willing to put up with a nonoptimal solution for that.

As for the people who say the bike engine won't being able to carry around a car, the engines I'm considering are all more horsepower than the stock v6, and that's before turboing. The car this is going into is a road legal track car, so it will be lightened as much as possible. The only problem I see there is the clutch. There are racing products available for that, or I may somehow reuse the fiero's clutch.

quote Originally posted by kwagner: You're right, it probably won't see those speeds very often. The getrag is used 1) because I have it already ($$), 2) it has reverse, which the motorcycle lacks and saves me from coming up with something for that, and 3) it already has axles that are a perfect fit from the wheels to the transmission. Basically it solves three issues for free. I'm willing to put up with a nonoptimal solution for that.

Very Often? It'll never see those speeds. Try to do the math to see how much power it takes to overcome wind resistance in a Fiero at 180 MPH.

quote Originally posted by kwagner: As for the people who say the bike engine won't being able to carry around a car, the engines I'm considering are all more horsepower than the stock v6, and that's before turboing. The car this is going into is a road legal track car, so it will be lightened as much as possible. The only problem I see there is the clutch. There are racing products available for that, or I may somehow reuse the fiero's clutch.

We're talking TORQUE, not HP. You can have 300 HP but without torque you won't be able to pull of in a 2500 lb. car (unless you slip the clutch a lot).
Not trying to discourage you, just get into the math before you spend a lot of time & money.
I myself plan to build a bike-powered car (after I finish some other projects), but it won't weigh more than about 800 lbs. (hopefully).
Also, check on the sports racers that run in the SCCA.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

The day after tomorrow is the third day of the rest of your life.

quote Very Often? It'll never see those speeds. Try to do the math to see how much power it takes to overcome wind resistance in a Fiero at 180 MPH.

I'm not talking about 180MPH, I was referencing the 130MPH part. That's doable on a race track.

quote We're talking TORQUE, not HP. You can have 300 HP but without torque you won't be able to pull of in a 2500 lb. car (unless you slip the clutch a lot). Not trying to discourage you, just get into the math before you spend a lot of time & money. I myself plan to build a bike-powered car (after I finish some other projects), but it won't weigh more than about 800 lbs. (hopefully). Also, check on the sports racers that run in the SCCA.

I appreciate the concern, honestly. If I didn't want opinions, I wouldn't have started this thread.

I've looked at several racing fieros on this forum, in various levels of street trim. jstricker's I believe is somewhere around 2200lbs, and he has a northstar and a rollcage. A bike engine certainly weighs less than a northstar. I'm unsure what level of weight reduction I can do but using a bike engine should remove a lot of extras that are on the fiero.

As for HP vs torque, you have a point, however, hp is an important factor here. I'll race you with whatever imaginary engine you want with as much torque as you want, so long as it doesn't have more than 10hp The reason that the engine will work with such a low amount of torque is that the redline allows me to take advantage of gearing. Look at first gear in the chart I put in the first post. With the getrag in 1st, you have a 3.6 multiplier of torque on the stock fiero engine. With a getrag plus the motorcycle transmission, that 3.6 is now an additional torque multiplier. In fact, at redline in 6th gear on the motorcycle transmission, you're still above 1st gear on getrag in torque multiplication. So take that measly 70ftlbs of torque and multiply it by 3.6. Now you have quite a bit more torque than the stock fiero.

Between lightening the car as much as possible, and taking advantage of extra gearing, I don't think there will be a problem.

Edit: As for comments about the power being narrow and peaky, take a look at this dyno: http://www.sportrider.com/b...charts/photo_56.html Now take a look at the dyno results of lou_dias' rebuilt 3.4 here: http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html (first near-stock motor I found) Which one is more peaky in power output? Don't be fooled by the fact that one graph is scaled horizontally to fit everything.

Let's first look at a range of 75hp to 150hp.

       75hp  150hp  range
3.4    2000   4500  2500
bike   6000  12000  6000

Look at the charts again, this time from 125hp to 150hp, which we would agree is more in the range of where we'd want to keep the engines if racing (as opposed to 75-150).

     125hp  150hp  range
3.4  3200    4500  1200
bike 8500   12000  3500

The bike has almost triple the power range of the 3.4.

Furthermore, the torque curve never falls below 60ftlbs from 4k rpm onwards.

[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 06-25-2009).]

Figured I'd give this thread a bump with some actual progress:

I was searching ebay and craigslist for a good deal on a current 1L bike engine for sale, when an ad showed up locally for a complete silver 2003 GSXR 1000 with 21k miles and some light damage. I took a look at it, got to hear it start, run, and move. I explained my purposes to the owner's brother (who was selling it for him). Turns out he (the brother) owns a shop that takes apart wrecked bikes and sells the parts. After he discussed my situation with the owner, he agreed to sell me the engine and all associated components for half the asking price. Done deal, I'd pick up my portion in a few days. Here's the bike after disassembly:


And all the parts loaded up:


Now the cradle had to come out of the fiero. I printed out Toddster's instructions from here:

Thanks for the great resource, Toddster I had to use two books, because the "professional-looking clear plastic binder" will only hold a couple dozen pages.

Saturday was spent making the cradle dolly per the instructions. Sunday ended in frustration with rusted bolts. After some discussion here and a day's wait for wd-40 to kick in, it was tackled again and the cradle was out Obligatory standing in the engine bay pic, my brother-in-law who helped out (in exchange for a pizza ) on the right:


My next step is to separate the fiero's engine from the transmission, clean some stuff up, and do some test fitting to see which of the various solutions I've found to mate the bike engine to the tranny will work. Initial measurements show it should fit in the engine bay without any issues.

I skimmed this thread, but your main problem is weight and no flywheel to speak of. A guy tried this in 1970 or so around here with a well-designed 3-wheeler and a Honda 750 engine. Beautiful thing with a full custom fiberglass body. Too small a clutch and not enough flywheel. Doesn't work on the street.

Hotrodder's rule of thumb that has NEVER let me down: Always go with a LIGHTER vehicle than what the motor was originally designed for. Ask me about my Corvette-engined motorcycle...

JR

quote Originally posted by John Ross: I skimmed this thread, but your main problem is weight and no flywheel to speak of. A guy tried this in 1970 or so around here with a well-designed 3-wheeler and a Honda 750 engine. Beautiful thing with a full custom fiberglass body. Too small a clutch and not enough flywheel. Doesn't work on the street. Hotrodder's rule of thumb that has NEVER let me down: Always go with a LIGHTER vehicle than what the motor was originally designed for. Ask me about my Corvette-engined motorcycle... JR

Couple points:
- This will be going in an almost pure track car, mostly autocross and some road racing. Weight will be at a minimum.
- While the lack of a flywheel will mean losing power on uphills and such, it conversely means faster revving on straights.
- Now that I have the engine/trans that will be going into the car, I have revised torque/speed maps. The long and short of it is, I should be able to go down a gear when necessary at any time to maintain torque and momentum, and moving from a stop will not be a problem (I'll have double the effective torque of the stock fiero v6).
- A lot has changed since 1990, let alone 1970, in the area of bike engine power. The engine I'm using has more hp than the stock v6.
- There are a number of successful bike-engined cars out there, although probably none as heavy as a fiero. Again, the car will be going on a strict diet, and the power of the engine is more than in many conversions (600-750cc).

I am curious about your corvette-engined motorcycle. PM me details, if you would. I'm especially curious about what you used for a transmission, and how you got the power to the wheel.

Thought I'd update this thread and bring it to a close at the same time. I've found and priced out the components I need to mate the motorcycle to the transmission. For those interested, here's some suppliers:
http://www.sprocket-adaptors.co.uk/
http://www.hawkmachine.com/Parts.htm
http://peterdmotorsports.co...h=28&products_id=555
http://store.600racing.com/...CCF3BDC3&killnav=yes
I've decided to go in a different direction. I'm sure it would work, and I may go back to it someday, but right now I see a different path unfolding. I will still be using the bike engine in a fiero (well, it will start as a fiero), but the end results I hope will be very interesting I just bought a house with a garage, and will be starting work on this project in a month or so. I will start a new thread at that time.