Ok,

I think I have read every 3800 SC axle thread out there and have not found an answer to my question or maybe I have and just can't seem to grasp it.

I have a 03 3800SC 4T65EHD going in an 88 GT. I used an 88 Drivers side Auto axle for the Driver side - perfect fit - moved the suspension through it's range of movement and it looks great - no binding, bottoming or over extension. I understand that I need to use a 4T65EHD tripot on the passenger side and the GXP driver side axle - swap out the GXP outer cage, balls and spider into a Manual Fiero outer and put it all together. What I can't seem to find out is if the older 97 to 02 4T65EHD tripots will fit the 03? It seems to me that the 03 Tripot uses the "square" rollers and will not work with the rounded rollers found in the Fiero's. I compared the original 03 tripot to the Fiero and also the 4T60E axles I have for the 4.9 and the "cups" in the tripot are very different. I just need to know if the Passenger side Tripot from an older 4T65EHD - SC car will fit int he 03 - once I have this, I can figure out the rest. Thanks in advance.

Pat

What I've done, twice now...

Manual transmission Fiero, driver side axle. Disconnect the boot for the inner tripot. Pull axle out of inner tripot. Go shove axle into passenger side inner tripot of 4T65eHD. Done!

If the tri-bearring thingie from the Fiero axle doesn't fit into the 4T65eHD's passenger inner tripot, you have the wrong 4T65eHD passenger side inner tripot. There are two types.

YMMV,
~Tyler

I agree, the Fiero left manual axle in the 65E-HD tripot has worked for me too.

quote Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez: I agree, the Fiero left manual axle in the 65E-HD tripot has worked for me too.

Does it work in conjunction with using the atock auto axle on the other side. I know some have used 2 manuel axles for the swap but that puts the motor/trans more torward the Pass side. I guess it will all depend on where you mounted your setup on the cradle. ...

Edit: When I have used the stock auto axle for the DRV side I have always build the Pass side out of the two donor axles and the outer manuel Fiero. This works well but like said above there are two differant style tulips but unsure what years/models used what....I also buy donor GTP axles to insure I get the correct ones.

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 08-01-2010).]

Tyler, Mike, Stephen,

Thanks for the replies. I have to go to the yard and gather up some parts. I am pretty sure that the tulips that came with the donor are the "wrong" ones to build an axle with. I did measure the axle of the Tulip I have and it is roughly 1.175". I just need to know if earlier 65HD tulips are the same axle size. I'll take the donor I have and my calipers to the yard. I have a Fiero Driver side manual axle - just need to find the right tulip and I'll see if it will work for my application. I believe that I have the motor closer to the passenger side than most others. We are using the stock mount alternator and it is very close to the strut tower. A little too close for me and I may need to slide the motor to the drivers side a bit. I do have some adjustemnt available - about the length of the slotted trans mount holes. I'll post up my results when i get it done.

Not a great pic but you can see it's pretty close:


Pat

I used a 03 caviler axle, worked pretty good and comes with the right outer, just change the inner. Little longer too.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I used a 03 caviler axle, worked pretty good and comes with the right outer, just change the inner. Little longer too.

DH,

Was that an 03 Manual or Auto axle? Right or Left side?

I just left the yard and they have no SC cars available but there are several 02 to 04 Cavi's. Ther was an 03 that had the front end tore apart - motor / tranny gone but the axles were laying there on the gorund - I thought the outers looked close to the Fiero - I stashed them away. I guess I'll go back and grab them.

Pat

I believe that there is no set formula for 3800 /4T65eHD swap axles. Fieroflyer reports that Lumina /Transport Van and 6000 axles will work as the cradle is the same size as the Fieros is. Other combos that I heard of include Chevy Impala, Beretta, and Cavalier axles. The other one is the Driver side Fiero manual axle with the driver side auto axle. It all depends on how you mount and position your powertrain. It should also be noted that WCF, Purplereign and Fierox mounts all position slightly differently and home built mounts never come out the same from job to job. This subject comes up weekly and we should have a pinned thread with all of the axles combos and how they work.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Thanks for your reply Dennis. I too agree that it would be of great help if we could get all the axle info in one place. I have been working on this swap for awhile now and the axle issue is my biggest worry. I was able to use the Fiero Driver side Auto Axle on the driver side. Now it is just a matter of getting the passenger side complete. I have a pretty good idea of what I need - just can't seem to find a good answer on the passenger side inner tulip/cup. I know there are 2 styles - just trying to find out which style came on which vehicles seems to be a problem. I am pretty sure that the 97 to 99 Regal with the SC is what I need but there do not seem to be any around this area in the yards. Right now, it seems that I have all the outer parts I need - it's just the tulip I have to hunt up now.

Someone posted in a thread I read recently that you need the tulip from either a Grand Prix GTP or a Regal GS for the Fiero axle to work. The "others" that won't work would be from the Park Avenue Ultra, Riviera, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Eighty Eight LSS, and Bonneville SSEi.

I don't know if this applies when you are using another donor axle like the Cavalier, Beretta, etc. Heck, since I haven't built mine yet I don't know if any of it is right... I'll be watching for a thread that combines all of the combinations...

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel

quote Originally posted by katatak: DH, Was that an 03 Manual or Auto axle? Right or Left side? I just left the yard and they have no SC cars available but there are several 02 to 04 Cavi's. Ther was an 03 that had the front end tore apart - motor / tranny gone but the axles were laying there on the gorund - I thought the outers looked close to the Fiero - I stashed them away. I guess I'll go back and grab them. Pat

Auto, take a dial caliper to confirm that they are the 1.1inch axles, and not the smaller .9 inch ones. The inner tripots suck on those so make sure you change them out for the GTP ones.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Auto, take a dial caliper to confirm that they are the 1.1inch axles, and not the smaller .9 inch ones. The inner tripots suck on those so make sure you change them out for the GTP ones.

Headed for the yard in a few. Thanks DH

Pat

OK, Here's what I ended up with.

First a list of all the axles I played with.

DS Fiero Auto Axle - used this for the Driver side - fit perfect!
DS and PS 04 Cavilier Auto Axles - Outer CV's are the same as a Fiero Manual Outer CV.
03 Boneville DS and PS Tulips - Inner CV's
03 Bonneville Inner Tripods - Spider and Rollers
98 GP GTP PS and DS axles

I wanted to try the Fiero DS Manual axle with the Fiero Tripod/Rollers slipped into the correct GTP Tulip (as explained by Tyler and Mike above) but could not find the Fiero DS Manual axle - after going through everything today, I am sure this would work in other apps but I beleive it would have been too short for this swap? No way of telling without the axle.

Too recap, the swap is mounted as far to the PS as possible - almost too far where the stock mount alternator comes pretty cloes to the strut tower.

So the next thing I tried was what DH suggested. I picked up 2 - 04 Cavi Auto axles. At first I thought I could use the GTP tulip and Tripod/spider - the Cavi axle was too small a diameter to fit the GTP Tripod/spider. Maybe the 03 Cavi axles are larger diameter - the same as the GTP? Turns out the cavi axle I have are 1.08" and the GTP axle is 1.1". The Cavi Spider had square rollers while the GTP has the rouned rollers. My next step was to swap the GTP rollers to the Cavi Tripod/Spider. Everything mic'd out and it all fit together. I thought this was going to work and make a fairly easy axle setup. Again, the idea was use the 98 GTP Tulip. Take the rounded rollers from the GTP Tripod and install them on the Cavi Tipod so that the Cavi axle and outer CV would spline into the Tripod and then slip into the GTP Tulip. Confused? My head hurts just thinking about it. Anyway, with it all assembled - no boot on the inner CV because I wanted to see where the Tripod/Rollers would sit in the Tulip as I moved the suspension through it's range of motion. Much to my dismay, it turns out that the Cavi axle was a little short for my liking. With the suspension at full drop - hanging on the strut, one of the rollers would be just on the edge of pulling out of the Tulip.

So the next step, and I should have done this first was to follow MstangsBware's suggestion - it worked perfectly. Here's what I did:
I took the 98 GTP DS Axle completely apart leaving just the axle shaft. Then I pulled the PS GTP inner Tulip/Tripod off the PS GTP axle. Set the PS GTP axle aside. Then I slipped the DS GTP bare axle into the PS GTP Tulip/Tripod. Next I removed the outer CV from one of the 04 Cavi axles (you can do this same thing with the Fiero Maual outer CV). I took the Outer Cavi CV and the Outer GTP CV over to the vice and swapped the cage, bearings and spider from the GTP outer CV to the Cavi outer CV. Everything is the exact same with the exception of the spider. The splines are larger to fit the GTP Axle. Once the outer Cavi CV had the outer GTP CV guts installed, I took it to the car and installed it. The GTP DS axle is 1" longer than the Cavi axle. Now at full axle compression - the point where the axle is slid into the Tulip as far as it will go while bolted to the hub and suspension, the tripod sits right in the center of the Tulip. I still have a little over 1" clearance before the axle would bottom out in the Tulip and at full drop, I stll have at least an inch before it reaches to outer limits of the Tulip.

I should have listened to Stephen's suggestion and I would have been done a few days ago. However, I also like trying all the dfferent ways and then determine what works best for my application. After all, we are talking about Custom - one off installs! What works for one may not work for another. I want to thank everyone for chiming in - it was a great learning experience and "now I know". Here's some pics:

Here are the 98 GTP PS and DS axles. These axles are 1.102":


We searched hi and lo for these axles in the yards - had to take what we could get - the yard monkey tore up the DS Tripod while taking it out of the car:


Here we are swapping rollers from the GTP Tripod to the Cavi Tripod - Cavi axle on top, GTP on bottom:


Here's the difference between the Cavi Axle and the DS GTP axle - Cavi is 1" shorter and the Diameter is 1.08" versus the GTP at 1.10":


Here's what we ended up with. 98 GTP PS Tulip and Tripod/rollers - the rollers are the "rounded" type. 98 GTP DS Axle Shaft. 04 Cavi or Manual Fiero outer CV cup withe the cage, bearings and spider from the 98 GTP outer CV installed. Snap them together and "presto" PS 3800 SC/4t65eHD in a Fiero Axle:


Here it is installed in the car - full compression:




Some pics of different axle parts:

Here's the axle I am using - The small "square" roller on the towel is the 04 Cavi roller. The large roller on the towel is from the 03 Bonny (pretty beefy) and you can see the "rounded" rollers in the GTP Tulip.


Here's the 98 GTP PS Tulip (left) and the 03 Bonny PS Tulip (right). Note the difference in the size of the roller slot. Too bad the Bonny axles are too long - the Tulip, tripod and rollers look pretty tough.


Here's a shot with all the tripods and rollers. Bottom is the 03 Bonny, Middle is the 98 GTP and the top is the 04 Cavi.


Another note:

While in the middle of this post, I had a brain spike - what if I could use the 03 Bonny PS Tulip, Tripod and rollers - the beefy ones - and slip the 98 GTP DS axle with the rebuilt outer CV into it? This would eliminate having to buy both the GTP axles - a guy could use the Tulip and Tripod assembly from his donor car (especially if it was from a 03 or newr Bonny, etc. Man I thought I was really on to something so I dashed out to the garage and gave it a shot. Although the Tripod from the 03 Bonny slid right onto the 98 GTP axle, it will not work.

The 98 GTP Tripod is held in place on the axle splines with a snap ring on the backside and a small "compression" ring on the front side. The Tripod has a "machined" depression in the front side. To remove the Tripod from the axle shaft, you slide the rear snap ring out of it's groove in the axle and slip it down the axle - toward the the outer CV end. Then you slide the Tripod toward the snap ring that you just moved and this gives you access to the small compression ring on the outside of the splines. Remove the compression ring and slip the Tripod off - reverse it to install.

The 03 Bonny Tripod does not mount to the axle splines in the same way. The Bonny axle has a "shoulder" machined into it that the Tripod sides on/against and a snap ring on the outside to hold it in place. There is no "depression" in the front side of the 03 Bonny Tripod. The Tripod will not slide out toward the end far enough to allow for the rear snap ring to snap into it's groove. I suppose a guy could have the shaft machined to "widen" the snap ring groove. This would place the tripod "shallower" in the Tulip when installed in the car. It does not ensure that the small comression ring wil stay put as there is no "cup" in the Tripod to hold it in place on the shaft. It's just easier to gather the parts and "build" the axle versus using what you have and having some machine work done - unless you have a machine shop in your garage?

Pat

[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 11-30-2010).]

quote Originally posted by katatak: Here's what we ended up with. 98 GTP PS Tulip and Tripod/rollers - the rollers are the "rounded" type. 98 GTP DS Axle Shaft. 04 Cavi or Manual Fiero outer CV cup withe the cage, bearings and spider from the 98 GTP outer CV installed. Snap them together and "presto" PS 3800 SC/4t65eHD in a Fiero Axle: Pat

Pat,
Are the PS tripot/rollers and DS tripot/rollers the same inside of the transmission tulip? I ask because I have just the passenger tuplip and the half of the drivers axle and tripot/tulip. If that tripot/rollers would work in the PS tulip, then I would only need to buy a complete GTP DS axle...

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel

quote Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: Pat, Are the PS tripot/rollers and DS tripot/rollers the same inside of the transmission tulip? I ask because I have just the passenger tuplip and the half of the drivers axle and tripot/tulip. If that tripot/rollers would work in the PS tulip, then I would only need to buy a complete GTP DS axle...

Yes, the PS 98 GTP tripot/rollers are the same as the DS 98 GTP. The DS tripot/rollers should slide right into the PS tulip.

Pat

Cool. Is there a CV Boot tool for that strap?

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel

katatak I'm working on pretty much the same build as you. Just wanted to say thanks for posting your work on here. Great post, you saved me a ton of time on getting this axle built. This setup is a perfect fit on my 88 3800 II SC with the auto trans.

Great info to share. I'm just wondering if anyone had any luck using the Lumina/Transport Van axles with the Fiero outer Tripots and the inner GTP pots.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Odin: katatak I'm working on pretty much the same build as you. Just wanted to say thanks for posting your work on here. Great post, you saved me a ton of time on getting this axle built. This setup is a perfect fit on my 88 3800 II SC with the auto trans.

I'm a little late to respond to this post but I can;t take much credit here. MstangsBware, Darkhorizon and Fieroflyer steered me in the right direction. Glad it helpd you though.

Pat

quote Originally posted by katatak: Hey Dennis, that's a good question!

I believe that fieroflyer uses a combination of the Lumina/Transport Van axle parts on his swaps. According to his website Darth uses a Beretta axle.
BTW, on my own 3800SC/4T65eHD swap the stock GTP drivers axle used on the passenger side with the GTP inner and Fiero outer cups proved way too long. I finally ended up at a CV axle shop and they made up custom lengths using the larger diameter axles. . If I look at my axles they are very close in length.
There appear to be many combinations that can be used for a given swap but IMO none are universal.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-10-2010).]