I was driving home in the torrential downpour today in my VW Golf, when I decided to test my brakes. I stopped on a dime. If I had ABS about 3 months ago, I'd still be driving my Fiero

So is there any way to do this? If not, I'll have to keep my Golf when I get the Fiero, and thats not what I was hoping for

Well, it would take some work, but you could probably get something to work. How much do you want to spend? My '92 truck has simple rear ABS. Ch http://www.aa1car.com/libra...kelseyhayes_rwal.htm

Otherwise, you may have to look at installing a computer and wheel sensors, along with the hydraulics.

Aww maaan

If you want ABS, your going to have to swap in all the abs components. Yes it is possible.

It sounds expensive to me. I would be worried about a malfunction with a non standard install. Same thing with an airbag install. I would like both, but imagine an airbag deploying accidentally or one or more of your wheels locking up or not working when you want it to.

ABS systems are designed to work with the brake system AND car they're put in. Installing an ABS system in a Fiero would be downright dangerous. The early systems were just garbabge, anyway, only in the past five years or so have they had any kind of real performance gains. Better off learning how to drive.

Same problem with airbags, you're going seriously injure or kill yourself. Want ABS and airbags in a mid-engine car? Try a 3rd gen MR2.

I really wish people would stop talking about how OMGDANGEROUS it is to put an ABS or airbag system in a Fiero. It's total BS. You might as well just say Fieros are dangerous because they can catch fire. You don't go around saying how dangerous it is to swap the drivetrain, do you? 3800s and SBCs, and LSxs weren't designed to go in a Fiero either. And the Fiero wasn't designed to handle them.

There's nothing special about an ABS system and the car it was put in, on any modern car. It is just another piece of equipment that can be tweaked to fit the appropriate needs. It is controlled by a computer, and that computer can be programmed. ABS is also the wrong term to explain what the modern systems even have the ability to do. Even installing a system with the actual brake/throttle/etc... control pieces disabled, the information provided by all the additional sensors would be valuable in data logging for anyone who is building a track car. And with those pieces enabled, one can have a single button that switches between many different control modes, to go from "cruising through town" to "let's have some fun," and back, without having to try and actually change one's driving style. You can keep the tires from spinning, the back end breaking loose, and get better fuel economy, without having to worry about how you're driving the car. And this is exactly why I intend to swap the hardware into both of my Fieros.

Any modern airbag system is the same way. Though, no part of the Fiero is really designed for airbags, so it would be a lot more work to fit them in properly. Could be done, but probably not really worth the work. The Fiero isn't designed to crush up into a tiny ball in impact, and the car's structure is probably safer than most on the road anyway.

While I agree with you that the ABS could probably be hacked to work and potentially provide benefits. I think it is safe to say that anyone that isnt an engineer having experience with airbags as a safety system should not under any circumstances try to hack an airbag system into the fiero. It is a good way to get yourself killed.

Allow me to demonstrate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vppxu70Wojo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRp0bqwY5ug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEtVZiL7FMs

If it can generate the impulse required to accelerate a full grown man into the air like that I am sure that improperly installed it could do significant bodily hard. Proper restraints are safer. PERIOD. If you are honestly worried about the safety of your car in a crash have a 4 or 5 point belt installed properly and a full cage.

Dobey, Look at how many recalls come from manufacturers with hundreds of engineers, thousands of hours of testing, and all their resources, and you think you are more qualified or as qualified? I never trust the first version of any complex system. You can die or kill someone if your air bag or abs system goes off when they are not meant to. My fiero is pretty heavily modified and is receiving more major mods now, but abs and air bags will not be part of them. I do agree that abs and airbags are desireable and I wish I could have them in my fiero. I love them in my other car. The one they were designed for. I'm sure you will go ahead. I would pray for you if I were a praying man. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Anyone remember the ABS kit you could install? JC Whitney sold it back in the day

quote Originally posted by dratts: Dobey, Look at how many recalls come from manufacturers with hundreds of engineers, thousands of hours of testing, and all their resources, and you think you are more qualified or as qualified? I never trust the first version of any complex system. You can die or kill someone if your air bag or abs system goes off when they are not meant to. My fiero is pretty heavily modified and is receiving more major mods now, but abs and air bags will not be part of them. I do agree that abs and airbags are desireable and I wish I could have them in my fiero. I love them in my other car. The one they were designed for. I'm sure you will go ahead. I would pray for you if I were a praying man. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Some people are more capable than others... It is doable. That said, if someone has to ask the question, they aren't qualified to do the swap. Then, in that case (this case) OMGDANGEROUS really does apply.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-30-2010).]

Could Fiero use "ABS" brakes?
Technically yes... A hell of alot of work and $ to get system to work.

I can think of main reason not to use it... law suit if system fails. And Insurance is likely not going help you either. Insurance likely will cancel you policy.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by dobey: I really wish people would stop talking about how OMGDANGEROUS it is to put an ABS or airbag system in a Fiero. It's total BS. You might as well just say Fieros are dangerous because they can catch fire. You don't go around saying how dangerous it is to swap the drivetrain, do you? 3800s and SBCs, and LSxs weren't designed to go in a Fiero either. And the Fiero wasn't designed to handle them. There's nothing special about an ABS system and the car it was put in, on any modern car. It is just another piece of equipment that can be tweaked to fit the appropriate needs. It is controlled by a computer, and that computer can be programmed. ABS is also the wrong term to explain what the modern systems even have the ability to do. Even installing a system with the actual brake/throttle/etc... control pieces disabled, the information provided by all the additional sensors would be valuable in data logging for anyone who is building a track car. And with those pieces enabled, one can have a single button that switches between many different control modes, to go from "cruising through town" to "let's have some fun," and back, without having to try and actually change one's driving style. You can keep the tires from spinning, the back end breaking loose, and get better fuel economy, without having to worry about how you're driving the car. And this is exactly why I intend to swap the hardware into both of my Fieros. Any modern airbag system is the same way. Though, no part of the Fiero is really designed for airbags, so it would be a lot more work to fit them in properly. Could be done, but probably not really worth the work. The Fiero isn't designed to crush up into a tiny ball in impact, and the car's structure is probably safer than most on the road anyway.

I so agree with this
I do not see any reason a ABS braking system from a Grand Am could not be put into a Fiero as-is - (well unless Grand Am have drum rears?)
put sticky tires on a Grand Am. does the ABS still work perfectly? it sure does.
put bicycle tires on a Grand Am. does the ABS still work perfectly? it sure does.
put larger diameter tires on. does the ABS still work perfectly? it sure does.
put tiny tires on. does the ABS still work perfectly? it sure does.
put a super charger on the engine. does the ABS still work perfectly? it sure does.
yes - the variables are many. yet - it works just fine tru them all.

Of course it can be done. Surely you would admit that there will be more risk driving a car with a self installed system than a factory system, and we're not talking an out of gas failure or an engine miss. If your brakes don't work it's scary. I've lost my brakes unexpectedly and it scared the hell out of me. Fortunately there was no one going through the intersection that I blew through. Imagine an airbag going off in your face unexpectedly. The skill levels of the person doing the install would be the biggest factor. Would anyone here feel safe buying a car with major safety systems altered? Would you feel confident selling a car modified knowing some unsuspecting future buyer is exposed to these risks?

I have a Malibu with ABS. It works great. I have a Fiero with GA/Seville brakes. It also works great.

Which one stops faster? I'd be hard pressed to say. The fiero stops like it is on fly paper. So does the Malibu.

For the Fiero, the stock brake system is not as good, period. The S10 brake booster with the GrandAm/Seville upgraded brakes works very well indeed.

I grant you that the Lebaron upgrade also works very well. Which ever way you go.

Adding ABS to the stock system would not make it a whole lot better IMHO. The car is light enough that upgraded brakes stop it real good without ABS.

Just my .02

Arn

quote Originally posted by dratts: Of course it can be done. Surely you would admit that there will be more risk driving a car with a self installed system than a factory system, and we're not talking an out of gas failure or an engine miss. If your brakes don't work it's scary. I've lost my brakes unexpectedly and it scared the hell out of me. Fortunately there was no one going through the intersection that I blew through. Imagine an airbag going off in your face unexpectedly. The skill levels of the person doing the install would be the biggest factor. Would anyone here feel safe buying a car with major safety systems altered? Would you feel confident selling a car modified knowing some unsuspecting future buyer is exposed to these risks?

which is another aspect:
when ABS fails - all that happens is the brakes work like a normal hydraulic system.

yes, I am sure we all agree it is better to have a car that wont start than a car that wont stop. but, and ABS failure would not do this. a hydraulic failure would. and that is a hazard for ALL brakeing systems.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: which is another aspect: when ABS fails - all that happens is the brakes work like a normal hydraulic system. yes, I am sure we all agree it is better to have a car that wont start than a car that wont stop. but, and ABS failure would not do this. a hydraulic failure would. and that is a hazard for ALL brakeing systems.

It depends on the failure. One possible failure is that the computer starts thinking that your brakes are about to lock up, and starts pulsing them, while you're not even touching the pedal, say at 70mph on the freeway. Granted, the probability of this happening is probably quite minimal and rare. But an equipment failure is an equipment failure. Most people who drive cars, have no idea how to care for them. I (personally) would be far more trusting of my retrofit of ABS into a Fiero, than the vast majority of people driving on the road in cars with factory installed ABS systems. Most of them are going to panic when the pedal starts pulsing due to ABS, anyway.

On the other hand, SiemensVDO is working on an entirely electronic braking solution. It would remove the hydraulics and simply use a small electronic motor on a special caliper, to squeeze the pads together. It's quite interesting looking.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 10-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: It depends on the failure. One possible failure is that the computer starts thinking that your brakes are about to lock up, and starts pulsing them, while you're not even touching the pedal, say at 70mph on the freeway. Granted, the probability of this happening is probably quite minimal and rare. But an equipment failure is an equipment failure. Most people who drive cars, have no idea how to care for them. I (personally) would be far more trusting of my retrofit of ABS into a Fiero, than the vast majority of people driving on the road in cars with factory installed ABS systems. Most of them are going to panic when the pedal starts pulsing due to ABS, anyway. On the other hand, SiemensVDO is working on an entirely electronic braking solution. It would remove the hydraulics and simply use a small electronic motor on a special caliper, to squeeze the pads together. It's quite interesting looking.

yes, I was thinking about the idea of the system thinking the wheel is locking when its not - but - the wheel speed sensors are always running, and monitored by the ABS system. when a wheel speed sensor goes bad, the ABS light lights up, and the system adjusts for the failure.

Since you are driving a VW the 93 passat was a standalone system but would be very hard to adapt to the Fiero. It used a 3000 psi pump with the master cylinder. I am sure it was not the only stock stand alone system out there.

quote Originally posted by SSN669chris: Since you are driving a VW the 93 passat was a standalone system but would be very hard to adapt to the Fiero. It used a 3000 psi pump with the master cylinder. I am sure it was not the only stock stand alone system out there.

On my 87, I will be using C5-C6 Vette hubs/rotors/calipers for the wheel speed sensors and actual brakes. The rest of the system, I haven't decided on yet, but will probably involve the G6 master cylinder and ABS computer.

On my 85, I'll be using Vibe/Matrix hubs/rotors/calipers most likely, and G6 master and ABS computer.

Both cars are or will be getting drivetrain swaps that use OBD2 and electronic throttle bodies. The 87 is getting an LS4, while the 85 will get the LY7 3.6 DOHC VVT V6 found in the G6. Both cars are getting the F40 6-speed trans. I have a very nice, new G6 traction control switch sitting right here on my desk that I intend to make use of. And four new tire pressure sensors. The parts keep coming in, but I'm concentrating on getting the LS4 build done and running before I do anything else big.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: which is another aspect: when ABS fails - all that happens is the brakes work like a normal hydraulic system. yes, I am sure we all agree it is better to have a car that wont start than a car that wont stop. but, and ABS failure would not do this. a hydraulic failure would. and that is a hazard for ALL brakeing systems.

Actually abs moduels can fail and allow that to happen. It doesn't always just become normal hydraulic brakes. I persoanlly can contest to lightly touching the pedal around a curve and the abs kicking In and sending the car off the road.
It is do able but I personally feel follow the KISS rule keep it simple stupid. Its something you could add and possibly better the vehicle or you could add and cause a major problem which in turn could harm you or someone else no reason to over complicate things. There are many upgrades for the brakes on the fiero that make it stop on a dime stick to them.

quote Originally posted by kikinz24: There are many upgrades for the brakes on the fiero that make it stop on a dime stick to them.

I don't know why people keep assuming that an ABS setup is only feasible for making a car stop faster. Because, it is in fact, the opposite of what ABS actually does. What it does is ensure that the brakes do not lock up, so that the driver can maintain steering control in a situation where the brakes would lock, and the driver would lose that control due to the lockup.

And as I've already said, ABS is probably the wrong term for what most of the systems do in modern cars anyway. There are far more uses for the components of an ABS setup, beyond just ensuring that the brakes do not lock up. Traction Control is a much better description.

learning how to drive properly, is way better

it has been shown that abs lengthens braking distance; if it was a manual(pull your foot off the go pedal, and break in an emergency), automatics(you stick it in neutral and brake), you'll stop faster.

threshhold braking was around befor abs was invented; practice it, instead of hitting the brake all the way to the floor

quote Originally posted by kikinz24: Actually abs moduels can fail and allow that to happen. It doesn't always just become normal hydraulic brakes. I persoanlly can contest to lightly touching the pedal around a curve and the abs kicking In and sending the car off the road.

So you are saying you were going around a curve, you lightly touched the pedal, the abs kicked in and pulsed the brakes so you didn't get enough braking and the car went off the road?

It takes a VERY incompetent driver to be unable to outperform ABS in winter conditions.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Hmm - Stop faster than what? Keeping your foot on the gas?

break, brake whatever; guess you haven't lifted off on the gas on a standard and coasted to a stop, thanks to engine compression

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Well if you are calling the car's Traction Control system ABS, I'd agree with you. You should call the car's ABS system the ABS system.

There is no such thing as an "ABS system" any more really. The systems have evolved beyond simple brake control. The anti-lock feature is merely a subset of the Traction Control system in any current model vehicles.

Also, you shouldn't say acronyms and then follow with the expansion of the last letter of the acronym. It's a PIN, not a PIN number. It's ABS, not ABS system.

quote Originally posted by dobey: There is no such thing as an "ABS system" any more really. The systems have evolved beyond simple brake control. The anti-lock feature is merely a subset of the Traction Control system in any current model vehicles. Also, you shouldn't say acronyms and then follow with the expansion of the last letter of the acronym. It's a PIN, not a PIN number. It's ABS, not ABS system.

Are you saying I am surrering from RAS syndrome? Can't keep my TLA's straight?

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 10-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: So you are saying you were going around a curve, you lightly touched the pedal, the abs kicked in and pulsed the brakes so you didn't get enough braking and the car went off the road?

yes that is exactly what happened mid 90's w bodies were known for this problem. lightly touched the brake to "slow" down a little bit and it instantly kicked abs in pedal got hard and kept buzzing pulsating. and beings the wheels were slightly turned to the left it kinda still went straight. off the road. pulled the car out with a truck drove it home it did it again just trying to slow down. i pulled the abs fuse out and the brakes worked as normal "non" abs setup. i personally like non abs cars. but i also grew up with mid 80's non abs cars.