Originally posted by Kohburn: depending on how much power you plan to push that 84 4speed tranny is going to have issues and possibly split the case on a hard launch.. why not use the ecotec 5speed?
but with 310cc injectors (only 4 of em) you'll be maxing out at about 260 crank hp -- the ion redline guys are going to 440cc and 600cc injectors
You made some outstanding points bud!
I'm most likely going to use whatever guts are needed from my 4-speed to make one of the V6 4-speeds into a 4.10 (aparently, it is possible). But as I've said prior, I'm starting off with the Isuzu 5-speed that's already in the car. Not just for $$ reasons, but also to explore the economy abilities of the motor.
This motor isn't going to make alot of low end torque, so the tranny should hold up. I've calculated that the power will really start to kick in at about 3,100-3,250 RPM, which with a redline of 8,500 (8,900 was the limit my crank man said it would take), gives me roughly a 5,000 RPM window of power. And below that, the 600-3,100 RPM range for economy driving. (See kids? Math is fun )
My main reasons as to why I'm using the Fiero trannies is basically that the Ecotec 5-speed isn't made for the car. The angle that the tranny would tilt the motor wouldn't enable me to use a turbo without ripping the trunk out, plus the clutch and shift arms would need to be customized (which a Canadian fella did, and created a reverse-standard H shift pattern), and the tranny mounts would need to be custom. Add this on top of the fact that the motor mounts need adaptation, and the throttle cable too (but that isn't too hard).
With how I'm doing it, the only thing custom as far as mounts and cables is the motor mounts and the throttle cable. And considering I'm not too great at welding, the less I need to do, the better! --- As far as the injectors, I picked these so they'd support the turbo upgrade, but also be somewhat fuel efficient. I'm hoping to test the economic abilities of this setup, not just the power levels.
I will go to a larger set down the road, like for dyno runs and track days, but like I said earlier, I want to stay somewhat mild to start off so I can eliminate any variables incase I have trouble with basic function of the motor. I'll go wild once things are dialed in, and the assembly is sound. ---
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:
angle of the photo - the tape is above that flange - flange is probably 1/2"
Give the man a cookie. He's right. --- BTW, the motor is going to be attached to the mock-up cradle setup on Thursday. Here's some picks of the tranny mounted to the cradle, along with the 88 V6 lower mount.
Until Thursday... take care!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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09:48 PM
Oct 17th, 2006
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
actually the reason deejayee's shift pattern is backwards is because he used the fiero shifter in the stock location and didnt turn it around ,resulting in the backwards pattern.i adapted a cavalier shifter and turned it so the cables face foreward in the cab and grafted the original fiero cables to the cavalier cables and carved up (5 minutes of grinding) the cavalier tranny cable mount to fit the fiero cables to the tranny in the same orientation as the cavalier had.sounds complicated but it isnt.its not a perfect setup ,you cant use part of the fiero centre consule and the 1 -2 shift could be better.i am going to change it this winter by getting custom cables made for my stock fiero shifter and mount it backwards in the cab.this will still have a correct pattern and will tighten up the 1-2 shifts.the cavalier tranny is much more robust than the fiero tranaxles ,and i really wanted the five speed .as far as having to tilt the motor ,you really dont have to ,i did because it is done in the cavalier and it helps to get the exhaust pointed in the right direction .i dont know if your turbo setup would clear the trunk firewall using the cavalier tranny or not but there is lots of room above the trannny for a turbo .as far as making up special brackets to make the cavy tranny work with the fiero slave ,2 dollars worth of threaded rod and 6 5/16" nuts will make a rig that joins the fiero slave to the cavalier master cylinder and works better than the stock fiero clutch .you just leave all the cavalier hydraulics where they are ,they take up little or no room anyway. the stock ecotec seems to have a lot of grunt in the lower rev ranges ,the only area i find it lacking is pull at highway speeds when i am too lazy to downshift like a throttle roll on at 100 to 120 kmh .it will be interesting to see how the stock tranny holds up .i think you already have more torque at the bottom end than you are planning on and with the turbo mounted so close to the exhaust manifold ,i dont think you are going to get much turbo lag. the ecotec is designed to use a weight bearing engine mount up at the front of the cylinder head .the bottom mount is where the dogbone normally is .i dont know whether this was done for better balance or because the oil pan isnt strong enough to take the weight .if you look at the stock dogbone mount it is a stout piece of steel held on by 6 bolts .seems strange to need all that just to hold onto a dogbone on an engine that doesnt shake at all anyway.
allmakes sense to me - and yeah v6 tranny case with 4.10 final drive works, though i suspect you will find the 1st gear to become too short when you start adding a lot of power
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10:46 AM
Oct 18th, 2006
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Originally posted by wftb: the ecotec is designed to use a weight bearing engine mount up at the front of the cylinder head .the bottom mount is where the dogbone normally is .i dont know whether this was done for better balance or because the oil pan isnt strong enough to take the weight .if you look at the stock dogbone mount it is a stout piece of steel held on by 6 bolts .seems strange to need all that just to hold onto a dogbone on an engine that doesnt shake at all anyway.
I am actually going to use the upper mount to bear most of the weight, just like in the Cavalier, but I want to beef up the lower mount as much as possible to reduce engine shift (I am worried about shift at high power). Although, in essence, if you look at the lower V6 mount, it's more or less half a dogbone, so it's somewhat like what's in the Cavalier. I think they only made it a six-point mounting bracket for guys like me
Some great points, as usual from you WFTB.
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:
allmakes sense to me - and yeah v6 tranny case with 4.10 final drive works, though i suspect you will find the 1st gear to become too short when you start adding a lot of power
Yeah, but the thing is, as I said earlier, the sub 3,000 RPM powerband will be small, so that issue won't be to much of a nuisance. I'm still trying to find someone who has done that tranny hybrid though. All I've heard is theories. Anyone know of actual swaps?
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
Yeah, but the thing is, as I said earlier, the sub 3,000 RPM powerband will be small, so that issue won't be to much of a nuisance. I'm still trying to find someone who has done that tranny hybrid though. All I've heard is theories. Anyone know of actual swaps?
it has been done by a few people -- you basicly put the 4.10 gearset into the v6 case the same as iff you had done a rebuild with fresh synchros etc, you have to set the right shim thicknesses and then bolt it together
Great! Here's the rest! --- It's amazing... I had a weekend that didn't involve me working or getting sick. And look how productive I was!
Here's a pic of the motor with the tranny adapter bolted on.
Now here's a pic of Ceticar's setup (see below). Look at the coolant pipe. See a difference? I had my crank guy cut and re-weld the pipe (see above), so it would clear the adapter. Pretty sweet! --- Next, here's the part I never though I'd figure out... the flywheel. I'll get a better pic later on, but for now, here it is... crankshaft~~~flexplate~~~5/8" spacer~~~flywheel~~~clutch/pressure plate The starter motor reaches the flexplate just fine. I have to grind a small amount of metal off the starter housing because the flywheel is hitting it, but that's easy. As far as clutch engagement... it measures out perfect. I don't have a throwout bearing in there yet, for good reason, so I could measure the throw distance of the clutch fork, and it's a tad shorter than the thickness of the bearing... PERFECT! --- Here's the tranny bolted to the motor. Yet again, fits perfect! --- Now, here's the part that's not so perfect. Part of the oil pan hits the crossmember. Not a big issue considering I'm doing reinforcement work on the cradle anyway. I do know that this wasn't an issue with 84-87 cradles, like with WFTB's swap, but the A/C compressor was hitting the same spot on those years. I'll have to bolt my accessories on and see where they land. --- Here's the part that is perfect. The lower mount is in the exact spot I predicted it would be in reference to the motor. The motor is a bit lower down on it that I predicted, but as far as fore, aft, and side to side, it's spot on with my measurements. So, lets make it official. The 88 V6 lower mount is the thing to use to adapt the lower mount of the Ecotec.
Now it's just a matter of some metal work for the adapter. The usual "weld a few slabs of steel, then drill holes in it" deal. --- Whew. Busy day. I'm bushed! I can't wait till tomorrow. We're getting our first snowfall of the season.
Well, till next weekend, stay safe everyone!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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10:44 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 4th, 2006
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Fosgate, my apologies for not answering your question sooner.
I got my adapter from Ceticars, a couple of months before he joined the forum. It was about $375. I do know that GM makes them now, primarily because the race teams with automatics need them. They use the 4T65E FWD trannies that come with the 3.8 Supercharged motors in Grand Prix. These trannies have the same bolt pattern as our Fiero trannies, thus why 3.8 Buicks bolt right on to our trannies.
I have the part number for GM, I just can't remember where I put it. I'm looking for it for 3 people now, so I'm definitely going to post it as soon as I find it.
Later dudes!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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05:09 PM
Dec 5th, 2006
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Not yet. The Navy seems to like making me do the work of 3 people at once.
I have off this weekend. I'll call tomorrow afternoon. I'm curious myself as to GM's price compared to Ceticar's price.
Methinks GM will charge more.
Price on them $225, its a company called Bates Engineering 714-545-0159. I asked him about clearance issues with that coolant tube and he said they have never had a prob with them hitting it so thats a big plus. Unforuantly I cannot get any of my extra fiero stuff to sell so putting my ecotec in the fiero is on a halt until I get some more funds. I will have my megasquirt stuff soon so I can get the motor running on my sweet wooden cradle Ive made.
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12:00 PM
kennn Member
Posts: 272 From: Green Valley, AZ USA Registered: Apr 2006
I'm curious to know what the thickness is of the adapter plate. I went to the Cobalt/EcoTec site, downloaded the pdf file and noted reference to the adapter, but no thickness dimension.
------------------ '88 Formula V6 '88 GT TPI V8
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12:03 PM
AquaHusky Member
Posts: 1234 From: Sedalia, Mo Registered: Dec 2006
I can't believe I just read thru ALL of this!! But, I did it because I want to do this swap as well. I was thinking for weight, economy, and power reasons. That, and I have a VUE with the Ecotec and Getrag 5 spd. I plan on using that when I do whatever it is I'm doing for my VUE. So many options with that as with the Fiero. I can't wait to see this finished! Now, I have to go blink for an hour or two cuz I read this all at one sitting. haha
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05:45 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Originally posted by kennn: I'm curious to know what the thickness is of the adapter plate. I went to the Cobalt/EcoTec site, downloaded the pdf file and noted reference to the adapter, but no thickness dimension.
Mine is 5/8" thick. Thus the need for the flywheel spacer to be 5/8". I wish I could say for sure that all of them are, but I'd bet good money that they're at least close to it.
quote
Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: Price on them $225, its a company called Bates Engineering 714-545-0159. I asked him about clearance issues with that coolant tube and he said they have never had a prob with them hitting it so thats a big plus. Unforuantly I cannot get any of my extra fiero stuff to sell so putting my ecotec in the fiero is on a halt until I get some more funds. I will have my megasquirt stuff soon so I can get the motor running on my sweet wooden cradle Ive made.
So GM has an outside contractor for them... interesting. I tried calling the dealer by me, but no one answered. Might be closed on weekends.
You know what might be a good idea Fosgate, what if you installed the Megasquirt into the car, run the stock motor on it for now, and when you get an Ecotec in there, you'll only need to do the wiring in the engine area, because the ECM will already be good to go forward of the firewall, thus saving you some trouble later on.
Just a thought man. Plus, it will give you some experience with tuning before you get the Ecotec going. --- Pictures from today will be posted after I eat dinner. I worked hard. I'm hungry darnit!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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05:50 PM
PFF
System Bot
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
I can't believe I just read thru ALL of this!! But, I did it because I want to do this swap as well. I was thinking for weight, economy, and power reasons. That, and I have a VUE with the Ecotec and Getrag 5 spd. I plan on using that when I do whatever it is I'm doing for my VUE. So many options with that as with the Fiero. I can't wait to see this finished! Now, I have to go blink for an hour or two cuz I read this all at one sitting. haha
Lol... I need to put a disclaimer up that says "Do not read this thread in one sitting. Dry eye sockets may occur."
This thread is officially at 35,000 views... I can't believe it. Go Pennock's!!! --------------- Ok, on with today's photos! --- First, I bolted on everything on the accessory side of the motor, not just to make it look pretty but also to check for clearance issues, and to make sure the underdrive pulley/belt setup from RK Sport is good to go.
It's amazing how this is starting to look like it's supposed to. And just an FYI, the upper mount is not staying fire engine red. I'm going to paint it, and the bracket attaching it to the motor, the same color as the head cover (see page 5). --- This is the Ecotec's lower dogbone mount bracket... and the 5 spot welds I need to remove... fun times
Basically, the metal welded on to the lower engine bracket so the dogbone can mount to it needs to come off, so I can attach it to the lower 88 V6 Fiero mount.
These are the spot welds after they were center punched and drilled (special bit), and the two bead welds cut.
And now the mount removed from the bracket.
I also had to cut off the other side of the mount because it was hitting the cradle. I got lazy with this one and just used an Acyetaline/Oxygen cutter and grinded it afterwards.
This will be an issue... but all I have to do is remove that washer under the bolt (lol). After that, it will clear the oil pan.
Remember how I was saying how this lines up perfect? This is what I was talking about. The gap here is about 1 1/4". The amount this side of the motor needs to drop to be level is about 1 1/4". Need I say more?
Rodney Dickman, if you're reading this, I'm sorry.
The two bolts welded to the mount need to get unwelded, and come off of there. Then the mount, which rotates on a lateral axis (thank you Rodney) will sit flush with the lower engine bracket, and can then be welded or bolted to eachother.
But none of this can happen until I cut into this crossbeam and get the A/C compressor mount clear of the contact it currently has. --- Also, something else to note. If anyone has kept track of WFTB's awesome Ecotec buildup, you know that he tilted the engine to about the same angle as it was tilted in the donor car. Now notice my engine, which isn't tilted.
He's smart in tilting the engine, not just to keep with spec's, but also because his mounts are level, whereas both my lower and upper will be tilted. Kinda weird. But again, I give WFTB a ton of credit. --- Whew! Another busy day!
Until tomorrow, stay safe!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 12-09-2006).]
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08:16 PM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
thanks for the kind words.i kind of think of my ecotec swap as being the bargain ,git er done swap and yours as being the upscale were only doing this once swap.i have been following this thread for a long time and it is what got me thinking ecotec.it is really coming together and i cant wait to see how it runs.
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09:59 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
thanks for the kind words.i kind of think of my ecotec swap as being the bargain ,git er done swap and yours as being the upscale were only doing this once swap.i have been following this thread for a long time and it is what got me thinking ecotec.it is really coming together and i cant wait to see how it runs.
Hey, thank you for being different, and using the Ecotec Getrag, and being the first one to do it right, and for doing a swap WAY cheaper than me!
And I love when people see something they like, but do it a little different just to see if there is a different way to do it.
I think mine is better for people who are good with engines, but are complete transmission idiots (like myself), whereas yours is better suited to people who are good with drivetrain mods, but like to keep engine mods to a minimum.
One other thing WFTB, I heard you have issues with exhaust manifold clearance. I have a spare Ecotec exhaust flange, ready to weld up if you need to go custom on the manifold. It's yours if you can cover the shipping. I had gotten it earlier in the project back when no one made turbo kits for the Ecotec, but then someone started making them, and I didn't need my flange anymore.
Let me know bud!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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11:15 PM
Dec 10th, 2006
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Rodney Dickman, if you're watching, please close your eyes now.
As for the rest of you, I made some decent progress today. The two bolts on Rodney's mount are cut off, and all of the grinding on the lower mount bracket is complete. Everything is all prepped for welding. But before I do anything more with that, I need to take a sawzall to the cross-brace on the front of the cradle.
I think with the final setup, I may just cut the whole beam off, get a 1-2" square steel beam, and weld that across the whole thing. --- And now for something shocking (literally) that happened in the shop. Let's do the math, shall we?
A fellow shipmate was working on his Mustang 2.3L Turbo motor.
Now, let's take the motor, factor in a faulty engine hoist that tipped over,
and we get a damaged battery charger cable,
along with a battery with a two inch hole in it.
But in the end, his motor was undamaged, and was installed later today.
This is why I finish alot of my posts with "Stay safe" because you can get hurt while working on cars. In fact, today, I almost crushed my thumb between the engine and the lower mount. Luckily, I had my other hand on the engine hoist controls, and stopped it before causing any damage beyond a black and blue mark.
I probabbly won't get back in there until after holiday leave. So I guess this will be it until the 28th.
Until then, I hope everyone has a happy, AND SAFE, holiday season.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 12-10-2006).]
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08:26 PM
Dec 16th, 2006
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Some more pics tht I forgot to post the other day.
Here's a shot of the accessory belt tensioner. There's a neat thing on this tensioner that I've never seen before. That little square on it is so you can put a 3/8" rachet in there to detensionize the belt. Pretty cool, huh?
Also, some better shots of where the project stands at the moment.
The lower mount...
And the reason the lower mount has a 1" gap (lol).
Well, until the 28th, here's where the project stands.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 12-16-2006).]
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11:08 AM
Dec 19th, 2006
faytmorgan Member
Posts: 99 From: anoka, mn usa Registered: Nov 2006
I've been working ALOT! 10-12 hour shifts, including weekends. I'm changing shifts soon, and it should provide alot more free time to work on the project.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
Hey if you can, zoom out on some of the motor mount locations, the last pic mostly. I should be getting my megasquirt stuff this week and next week bring the fiero up from storage to get working on it. My plan right now is to get the adapterplate, mount the motor and tranny together in the car and then create the mounts for it. My cradle is redone for my old motor, a 87 3.8 so locations will be different for me.
Well then, bonzo, you probabbly understand better than anyone else here why there are so many delays with this project.
12+ hour shifts plus working weekends = 0 hours for car projects
That, plus I was away on a special assignment for most of Febuary.
It's good to know I'm not alone on this forum. I'm transferring to shore duty orders next month, so my hours will cut in half. I was hoping that my shift change was going to free up some time, but such was not the case. Late April will prove to be productive. --- Some updates on the project engineering: The way I set up the flexplate/spacer/flywheel combo works great, minus one thing... the starter motor.
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that my flywheel has to go back to my machinist, and he needs to grind the teeth off, or I need to figure out if the bolts holding them on will come off without sacrificing integrity of the flywheel.
In the long run, if I'm out far from home, and my starter motor takes a nose dive, it is much easier to not have to grind the starter housing to get it to work. Plus, where I would have to grind on the starter could in fact reduce the structural integrity for the sprocket shaft.
In a nutshell: grind the un-needed teeth off the flywheel, but don't grind the starter motor housing.
More to come! ------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 03-25-2007).]
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12:39 AM
vortecfiero Member
Posts: 996 From: Toronto Area, Canada Registered: Feb 2002
Ok, time for some math to explain the turbo selection.
Pressure ratio is found by adding 14.7 + the target psi, then divide that by 14.7.
I'm shooting for 7 psi to start, that comes out to 1.476 for the pressure ratio.
The second boost stage will be about 11psi, which makes it 1.74 P/R.
I may go to 12 psi, but that's right at the gasket's limit, 1.82 P/R.
For airflow rate, it's the cubic inches X rpm X 0.5 X volumetric effeciency.
How to find volumetric effeciency is the question. A small block Ford is about 85%, so I guess we'll use that for the Ecotec for now till I find an exact number.
134 cid X 7000 RPM redline X 0.5 X 85%
For the airflow, in CFM, I'm at 230cfm. In Lb/min, which for some stupid reason all Garrett turbo maps are rated in, is about 25 Lb/min
Now, add all of that into the compressor map, and you get this.
Effeciency looks to be in the 81%+ area for 11-12 psi, and about 75% for 7 psi.
good choice.. but for a 4 cyl Id try to get one that puts the peak torque rpm as close to the left side of the peak island and as far away from the surge line as possible. With the peak HP point on the right side... even at 70 to 65% with an intercooler. This will give you low midrange boost sooner... and cooler boost on an accelaraton run.
The turbo you have chosen will have a slightly higher peak output on your setup and will probably work just fine. Im sure you have read that compressor maps are just a guide... and each install will net different results
------------------
87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6 Bully Stage 2 clutch Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection 50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box S10 caliper conversion. Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure. Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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10:00 AM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
good choice.. but for a 4 cyl Id try to get one that puts the peak torque rpm as close to the left side of the peak island and as far away from the surge line as possible. With the peak HP point on the right side... even at 70 to 65% with an intercooler. This will give you low midrange boost sooner... and cooler boost on an accelaraton run.
The turbo you have chosen will have a slightly higher peak output on your setup and will probably work just fine. Im sure you have read that compressor maps are just a guide... and each install will net different results
Hey vortec! Thanks for your analysis. I've seen some of your other posts across the forum, and you definitely know your stuff.
You are right about everything you said. Part of why I wanted a turbo that focused more at the peak had to do with traction. The Ecotec is significantly lighter than most of the other motors that people have had in Fieros before, and I was concerned about the boost coming in too soon, and too much, and tossing me around the track.
I was concerned about air charge temp being on the high side, and air-to-air intercooling in a Fiero is an engineering nightmare, but reading more into the effectiveness of alcohol injection, my concerns faded away. I don't plan on high boost all the time of course, just those weekends at the track. If I'm using E85, higher boost levels will be doable with that as well. Gotta love government sponsored race fuel!
The are better choices out there than what I went with, but remember this... I got a turbo with 200 miles on it for about half price, and for the most part, it will give me power where I need it on the powerband... how can you say no to that?
It looks like I have off next weekend (finally!), and possible a day or two midway through the week. Definitely will take advantage of it and get back in the shop.
Oh, and did I mention my Fiero almost got towed yesterday? Yeah, that would have sucked. The whole project getting impounded would have ruined my week for sure! Gotta love the military police!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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05:26 PM
Apr 3rd, 2007
mploucha Member
Posts: 44 From: Canton, Michigan, United States Registered: Jun 2006
-how much weight do you think this will take off the car
-My friend is about to throw out an iron duke motor cradle, could I use that for mounting my own 5sp. ecotec to before I load it up into my 86 GT. Not really sure if the motor cradles bolt up the same way or not. I believe his is an 85 car if that matters.
-Oh and here is one for everyone else. When are you gonna finish and whats left. Sorry I'm sure your busy but I just can't wait.
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03:10 AM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
-how much weight do you think this will take off the car
-My friend is about to throw out an iron duke motor cradle, could I use that for mounting my own 5sp. ecotec to before I load it up into my 86 GT. Not really sure if the motor cradles bolt up the same way or not. I believe his is an 85 car if that matters.
-Oh and here is one for everyone else. When are you gonna finish and whats left. Sorry I'm sure your busy but I just can't wait.
---I'm going to get a hoist scale between the engine and the hoist to weigh the two motors, so I can get an exact figure of how much weight I'll save. The estimates I've made, if the source numbers I gathered were right, it could be as much as 95-105 lbs, but only because I have a turbo setup. Without the turbo kit, possibly 125-135 lbs. It's not much... but in a 96HP car weighing 2560lbs, bringing it down to 2450lbs while bringing it up to 350+HP is big!
This could be completely wrong. But basically, the factors here are this:
-The Ecotec block weighs 69 lbs. From what I've read about the duke, its block is in the 130-140 lb range. -The Fidanza flywheel I have is 7.75 lbs. A typical GM 4-banger flywheel weight is 26 lbs. -The stock Ecotec crank is 41 lbs. My crank guy brought it to about 35.5.
If anyone can get me more solid duke #'s, please provide them. Either way, I'm going to weigh a stock assembly, then weigh mine.
---------------------
---If the cradle is from an 84-87, then you can use it for your car. The 88 cradles are different, but there are kits to make those work with earlier years. The cradles were pretty much similar between the different motors and trannys, it's just the mounts that were different.
Speaking of which, earlier in the thread, I mentioned the V6 mount is the one to go with if you don't want to go with solid mounts. I have one for the 84-87 cradles if you need it. I only ask that you pay for shipping. I got it not realizing the lower engine mount bolt holes on the cradles were different between the 84-87 cradles and the 88 ones (like mine). The reason the V6 mount is the best, is because the others are too high.
One thing, this isn't like Rodney Dickman's mount that swivels. I needed his, because I wanted the engine to be at 0 degrees. The stock style mount is only good if you're keeping the engine tilted at the stock 15 (?) degrees, like WFTB's, then the lower bracket will be level, and you can fabricate an adapter to work with the mount.
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-I do apologize for the length of this project. I know, I've kept you guys waiting a long time. The military is a double edged sword... they give you the resources for ANY car project... but they don't give you time, until you give them time. My time is coming. The 12+ hour days will soon turn to 8 or less. I will make this up to you in the end.
Last weekend kinda fell through btw. I think I have off Saturday, but I need to work on my truck that day. A turn signal issue just popped up. I do have off on Monday though. I'll keep you guys posted.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
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05:14 PM
Apr 22nd, 2007
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
Nutshell version: THE CAR IS COMING APART FRIDAY!!! === The longer version:
Hey everyone, I have nothing but good news today. I did alot in 6 hours
The lower mount is finished and I can now tear the car apart and prep it for the new motor. This will involve the following:
-Cutting out the battery mount (I have a forward-relocation kit) -Removing the insulation on the engine bay walls (I may add the WCF stuff later on) -Modding the car's original cradle to how the mockup cradle is, plus some added reinforcement -Welding a bracket for the upper engine mount -Rust removal (there isn't much, just a spot on the cradle, and another from the battery acid) -Painting over the new welds and treated rust spots
This is the initial cut I made into the crossmember, but I had to cut some more to make room for the A/C compressor.
Here's the final cut.
As you can see, there's plenty of clearance, which is good considering this isn't a solid mount setup.
Now this is what I wanted to see. The former-dogbone bracket lying flush with the 88 GT mount. PERFECT!!!
This is how I welded up the lower mount to the bracket. Also, you can see that I had to cut a corner out of it. Part of the oil pan comes down right there and was going to get in the way.
I know, my welding skills really suck. I'll get better someday.
Friday is the day my friends! Wish me luck!
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 04-22-2007).]
