Just a point of information for some folks. Yesterday I was working on some other things in the shop and I saw my rear stock springs laying on the floor off the race car. Now I say "stock" because they are factory, but they are factory WS6 springs and, IIRC, supposedly the highest rate available from the factory based on the tag on the spring.
I made a little fixture in the press to see how heavy the springs were. When I was done, they ended up measuring about 170#/in deflection. I thought that was pretty light so I went to my spare parts bin and rummaged around and found another set of stock rear springs. I don't know what their spring number was and they are, most likely, off an '84 4 cyl/auto car. They measured at 145#/in deflection.
I bring this up because in parts of the thread people are talking about spring rates anywhere from 200 to 300 pounds, so people have an idea of what the stock springs actually were. When we did this conversion on the roadster a couple years ago, we went with 250# springs just on a guess because of the small block Chevy in the back. It is not too stiff, I don't think. I intend to run about 275# or 300# springs in the rear of the race car, with the stock front WS6 springs cut one coil and a spring rubber in each side, which should stiffen the front springs up by about 30% or so, give or take.
Sooooo... logically, 7 in threaded collars would allow more height adjustment? Most places ahve the same price for 5" or 7".
And 12" springs allow stock height, 10" springs are better for a moderate drop but still can be adjusted to stock ride height with 7" collars... or not? I want to make sure I know exactly what I need to get.
And are these in pairs or single wheel kits...? Because they only show parts for a single wheel on most websites, but I found one that said it was for a pair of wheels for about the same price as everywhere else.
[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 12-19-2007).]
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09:39 PM
shermdizzle Member
Posts: 375 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: Aug 2007
Just got done converting the Koni's on the race car.
7" tubes, made to fit over 2" OD shock bodies. 12" Carrera 250# Springs. I have over 2" of drop available to me with just the springs touching and unloaded. Total drop would probably be over 3" before the nuts got close to the base, maybe more.
Cut the perches off as close as comfortable with plasma cutter. Chucked the body in the lathe and turned the rest of the perch off. Turned the shock body top nut down so it was 2.050" which made took a few layers of paint off the body, maybe a little more than that. For those not familiar, the upper end of the Koni body is larger than the bottom where it bolts to the knuckle, and the nut that holds the seal in is larger yet. If you simply bore the tube out it would be very thin.
As it was, after getting the body to 2.050", the tubes would not slip over so I threw the tubes in the oven at 400°F for an hour and then they did just drop over fine. Anything over about 400° is going to cause discoloring of whatever color the tube is and if they're not high quality, it might happen at a lower temperature.
All of my parts came from Speedway Motors. They cost a little more, but if you buy more than $400 total, and I needed other stuff, shipping is free and they are overnight to me UPS Ground. They also only care top quality stuff.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT42:
Sooooo... logically, 7 in threaded collars would allow more height adjustment? Most places ahve the same price for 5" or 7".
And 12" springs allow stock height, 10" springs are better for a moderate drop but still can be adjusted to stock ride height with 7" collars... or not? I want to make sure I know exactly what I need to get.
And are these in pairs or single wheel kits...? Because they only show parts for a single wheel on most websites, but I found one that said it was for a pair of wheels for about the same price as everywhere else.
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08:26 AM
Dec 23rd, 2007
shermdizzle Member
Posts: 375 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: Aug 2007
so how big of a sleeve/ring would i need to use to get that much of a drop?
2" ID, 7" long sleeve.
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Originally posted by shermdizzle: and also, i heard that aluminum adjustable coilover's are bad, because the aluminum will seize together, is that so with this mod?
So what else would you like to use? Any metal can seize, aluminum is no different.
quote
Originally posted by shermdizzle: and one last thing-how do you adjust the height-with an allen wrench?
The allen screw is to lock the setting once you get it where you want it. You need to look at the pictures in this thread and most of your questions will be answered.
John Stricker
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11:45 PM
Dec 24th, 2007
shermdizzle Member
Posts: 375 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: Aug 2007
hey mr stricker, believe it or not, everyone learns differently
i am more of a visual/listener-show me and tell me how to do it-i need to actually see the whole process and see how to do everything-this is why i am asking so many questions
i have gone through this post more than you will know, and i'm still confused, thats why i'm asking so many questions
i appreciate your answers and your help, but it doesn't really seem like you are being to patient, rather giving me short "LOOK, STUPID, HERES THE ANSWER" answers
i know that all metal seizes, i have heard that this is especially so with the aluminum, when the dirt and grime from driving gets in there it becomes next to impossible to adjust (see, i did my homework) so, what i meant to ask, is: if this does tend to sieze or get stuck more than *anything* else ( i say anything, because i don't know what other type of metal is used on coil-overs or sleeves)what is it, where can i get it. if it is just as likely to seize as anything else, what can i use to prevent it from seizing/gettin crap stuck in it
i'm sorry for not being clear enough
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12:28 AM
shermdizzle Member
Posts: 375 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: Aug 2007
I built my own coil overs using Monroe Sensi Trak struts and the usual aluminum sleeves, QA1 12" coils etc. They were easy to build, and a little research on stock spring rates led me to use 250 lb/in. springs. They seem to be just right for the stock 2.8 V6 with a front sway bar mounted @ the rear. I thought of switching to 300 lb/in. springs just 'cause everyone seems to use them, but I think that they would "over power" the rebound on the Monroe struts. I'm happy with what I've built!! Thanks, Ray.
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11:26 PM
Jan 24th, 2008
BMTFIERO Member
Posts: 1187 From: Beaumont, TX Registered: Dec 2007
Ok I am planning on doing this for my wife's car. I have 5 inch threaded collars that I got pretty much for free as I am selling the struts/springs they came on for more than what I paid for the struts, springs and collars. Now I plan on running 300lbs springs. I think I have 325lbs springs on my IMSA Held set-up and they ride nice. My problem is what struts to get. I hear that the KYB's are that great. But what else is there? I know of the Koni's. I have them on the IMSA Held set-up on my IMSA and they need a bigger diameter collar. Or is that just on the adjustables? Any advice is welcomed and appreciated.
For 88 spring rates, here is the most accurate information: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-2-054238.html All 88 front springs: 205.5 lbs/in All 88 rear springs: 142.7 lbs/in This is based off the GM manufacturing prints for the springs as well as measurements taken by others. See the link above.
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Originally posted by luckyfasteddie: I have followed this thread with great interest. I have a 88 Fiero engine in the back of my 39 Chevy pickup ratrod. my unit weighs 100lbs in front and 1950 in the back -pretty close to a real Fiero I think
I assume you mean 1000 lb front weight? Anyway, 1950 lbs rear axle weight is much heavier rear weight than a stock Fiero. An 88 Fiero is around 1550 rear 1150 front. Mine with a 3.4 DOHC V6 weighed 1650 rear. It's a heavier engine than the stock 88 Fiero engine. With that extra 400 lbs over the rear its no surprise you ha to up the spring rate! Stock 88 Fiero rear spring rate is 142lb/in.
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-30-2008).]
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06:13 PM
Saxman Member
Posts: 5151 From: Melbourne, FL Registered: May 2005
Is anyone making these for sale? Just wondering since I have all the rear end out of my Formula and I need new struts anyway. I'm just wondering what the price difference is.
Thanks!
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06:22 PM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Held and WCF sell kits specifically for the Fiero. I think there are a few other vendors as well.
Thanks, but I was looking for somone who is building one of these cheaper alternatives - and selling it cheaper than Held and WCF. Even buying all the parts together would help me out. I never have enough time to get these things together.
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09:03 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Send me some struts and I'll cut/turn the perches off for you and send them back to you. All it will cost you is the shipping.
John Stricker
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Originally posted by Saxman:
Thanks, but I was looking for somone who is building one of these cheaper alternatives - and selling it cheaper than Held and WCF. Even buying all the parts together would help me out. I never have enough time to get these things together.
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10:12 PM
Jan 31st, 2008
Saxman Member
Posts: 5151 From: Melbourne, FL Registered: May 2005
Probably not, if you want new struts I could probably just pick up what you wanted, cut off the perches, and then ship them to you. Depends on what you want, it would save shipping at least ONE way. I've been happy with several brands. In my order of preference, they are Koni's, KYB, then Sensatrac's. Not surprisingly, that's also the order of pricing, most expensive to least expensive. PM me if you want to work this out. The Konis need a little more machining on the body and the 2" ID tubes have to be heated to almost 450° to slip over the belled top of the struts, but they DID go over the Koni's on the race car. It did take the anodized finish off of the sleeves though.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Saxman:
I imagine shipping costs will take the total price up to where the other finished coilovers are, but if I get in a pinch, I'll let you know.
You da man, John! Thanks!
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08:47 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
i appreciate your answers and your help, but it doesn't really seem like you are being to patient, rather giving me short "LOOK, STUPID, HERES THE ANSWER" answers
i know that all metal seizes, i have heard that this is especially so with the aluminum, when the dirt and grime from driving gets in there it becomes next to impossible to adjust (see, i did my homework) so, what i meant to ask, is: if this does tend to sieze or get stuck more than *anything* else ( i say anything, because i don't know what other type of metal is used on coil-overs or sleeves)what is it, where can i get it. if it is just as likely to seize as anything else, what can i use to prevent it from seizing/gettin crap stuck in it
i'm sorry for not being clear enough
I also apologize for seeming to be a little short with you. I don't know of any steel sleeves being made and that would really be the only other material. You have to remember that it's not something you're going to normally change every day on a STREET car. It does get adjusted regularly on a race car to put wedge in the car, but normally once you set your ride height on a street car, you leave it alone. The threads are fairly coarse and while I'm sure it CAN seize, I haven't had one do it to me yet.
There are a lot of pictures in this thread and I don't know what else one could add to it, but if there is a particular step in the process you're unclear of, post it and I'm sure that someone can either post a picture or point you to one in the thread that you might have missed.
No matter what material, to drop the car 3" you are taking about 50% of the travel out of your strut and that translates into leaving about 3" of suspension travel before bottoming. It's also going to make the car extremely difficult to drive on the street through dips and over speed bumps, so be aware of that as well. You're also going to have to lower the front end a like amount, naturally, or the car will ride WAY nose high. a 3" drop on springs alone means some lowering springs (and I don't know of any of those that will give you 3" of drop) or cutting at least 2 1/2 coils off your front springs. That will put the suspension nearly on the front bump stops as well so they will need to be trimmed or removed.
It's your car, make it to your desire, but just consider the practicality of what you're doing while youre at it.
John Stricker
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08:56 AM
Saxman Member
Posts: 5151 From: Melbourne, FL Registered: May 2005
Thanks, John. I will check out the struts and other parts I need and get back to you. I also need to look this thread over a little closer to get a better understanding of how these go together - and where to get the other parts needed.
I want to do this one the 84 V8 Fino for sure, but I'm not sure if it is worth it on the 88 Formula because I may be putting it up for sale to fund the Fino improvements.
Thanks again!
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10:02 AM
The_Stickman2 Member
Posts: 1030 From: Lehigh Valley Pa. Registered: Sep 2007
Thanks, but I was looking for somone who is building one of these cheaper alternatives - and selling it cheaper than Held and WCF. Even buying all the parts together would help me out. I never have enough time to get these things together.
If you wanted to and were willing to drive to Pa. I could help you out making them. All you would need was the sleves and springs. I know how to do it just not which struts are best. Guess I will go with the koni's
Just so you know, to use the 2" ID sleeves you almost MUST have a lathe to turn the tops down on the struts, the Koni's are belled at the top.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by The_Stickman2: If you wanted to and were willing to drive to Pa. I could help you out making them. All you would need was the sleves and springs. I know how to do it just not which struts are best. Guess I will go with the koni's
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01:27 PM
Feb 1st, 2008
The_Stickman2 Member
Posts: 1030 From: Lehigh Valley Pa. Registered: Sep 2007
At this point you now have the spring removed by someone else unless you had the correct equipment/skills to do it yourself.
I tried using an impact with a 21mm socket to remove the top nut that holds the upper retainer plate to the strut shaft, I then had to use a 21mm wrench on the nut and a 10mm wrench on the shaft to remove the nut as the shaft spun with the impact.
The next pic shows the coil retainer "A" and upper spring perch "B" along with 2 washers and the 21mm nut.
The small bushing on the right is actually the center of the dust boot, it had seperated from the boot.
The next pic shows the spring, rubber cushion from the upper spring perch and the dust boot, all of which are no longer needed.
The next pic shows the bare strut.
You need to remove the lower spring perch from the tube and grind the top of the strut to the same diameter as the tube.
Just Dremel, file or grind the weld away to remove the perch, try not to put too much heat into the tube just to be safe and don't grind a hole through the side of the tube.
Don't you need a spring compressor? Isn't that spring a loaded gun at this point? Brit
------------------ What really matters is the size of your Flux Capacitor...
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04:01 PM
May 10th, 2008
falcon_ca Member
Posts: 1292 From: Chicoutimi, Quebec, Canada Registered: Dec 2007
What part number for the Sensa-Tracs? The ones I just looked at (for 84 Fiero) could not be modified for use. It had a feature at the end that couldn't be removed that was larger than the strut diameter.
Bob
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12:54 PM
sjmaye Member
Posts: 2468 From: Hendersonville, TN USA Registered: Jun 2003
For 88 spring rates, here is the most accurate information: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-2-054238.html All 88 front springs: 205.5 lbs/in All 88 rear springs: 142.7 lbs/in This is based off the GM manufacturing prints for the springs as well as measurements taken by others. See the link above.
If stock rear springs for a v6 are 142lb/in why are many looking for 250lb/in?
I just want some lowered and ride stiffness similar to stock.
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05:47 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4410 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
Imagine a stock spring with a rate of 150 lbs./in. of compression. Say total movement of the suspension is maximum 6 in. in full compression. That would be 900 lbs. of force to compress the suspension fully as designed. If you lower the car 2 in. you are left with 4 in. of total movement before fully compressed. To prevent the suspension from bottoming out prematurely, you would want at least 900 lbs. force to still be required to fully compress the springs. So your new springs would probably be rated at 225 lbs./in. as a starting point. Your street ride is compromised to some degree no if ands or butts. Spring makers have some tricks to moderate this but they increase cost and I doubt that is done for Fiero springs. We are after all, the cheapest hobby car owners in the known universe.
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02:43 PM
sjmaye Member
Posts: 2468 From: Hendersonville, TN USA Registered: Jun 2003
I tried using an impact with a 21mm socket to remove the top nut that holds the upper retainer plate to the strut shaft, I then had to use a 21mm wrench on the nut and a 10mm wrench on the shaft to remove the nut as the shaft spun with the impact.
Anyone else have problems getting this nut to break free?
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02:56 PM
sjmaye Member
Posts: 2468 From: Hendersonville, TN USA Registered: Jun 2003
