Excellent writeup Thanks

Buddy,
How much would you charge to do that repair, if I sent you mine; or, would you even consider doing that? I'm an "all-thumbs" guy.
Thanks!
bb

oops, sorry bruce, i just saw your post.
i charge 75 for a left motor and 85 for a right.
good used gears are very hard to find so a lot of the cost is in parts.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 07-08-2006).]

Great job Buddy, however, I have a few things to add.

I have rebuilt several motors now and I have used Rodney's Vitron O-ring pieces for the bumpers and they have worked great for me.

When I clean the commutator I use 500 grit sand paper and just hold it around the commutator with one hand and spin the armature with the other and when it's nice and shiney it's done.

I do clean the groves with a pic like you mention.

The rubber seal between the case halves which can be seen in several of your pics is white silicon which I remove completely from both halves as it usually doesn't stay in one piece when the halves are seperated.

Just prior to putting the two halves back together I wil fill the groove in the one case half with RTV black, I'm sure any silicon will do, this will help seal out the elements, you don't need much, I use just enough to fill the groove.

When re-assembling the armature I will grease anything on the shaft as this spins and needs lubrication, also the gear and the armature's screw shaft.

Where the gears and shaft ends sit in the case I will put a dab of grease also and don't forget the little "D" shaped bushing at the top, (not the rubber seal that's a PITA to get back in place).

When it's all re-assembled and prior to putting the limit switch cover back on I have found an easy way to tell if it's assembled so the limit switches will work.

Put the palm of one hand on the knob at the top and the other on the bottom of the housing and push together, you will see and feel the knob move down and when it does this it is contacting the limit switch and you should hear a click from the switch.

Next hold the housing in one hand and pull on the knob with the other, you should again feel and see the knob move outward and hear the limit switch click.

If you look at the limit switch while doing these two things you will see the limit switch contacts move in response to the "fingers" on the armature moving.

Steve

------------------

Where will the road take you today?

Some helpful links I've done
How to remove inner door panels, with pics.
How to remove outer door panels, with pics.
How to make rear coil-overs using factory struts, with pics.
How to remove rear bearing hubs, with pics.
How to modify the stock Fiero radio for MP3 players, with pics.

I've seen a couple of cars where after installing the brass gear and bushings the operation of the motor was - well, wonky.

The symptoms were that the headlight would go up but not down, or it wouldn't go up but would go down. One (mine) wouldn't go down - but if you gave the manual knob a nudge it'd go right down.

Analysis of my malfunctioning motor revealed that the limit switches were misbehaving. I could manually work the switches and found that one would not "click" when fully depressed - but when I started to release the pressure it'd click. That's not right...

Examining the limit switches carefully revealed that the U shaped brass piece that the contacts are mounted on wasn't bent correctly. Instead of the two sides being parallel to each other, the "bad" side was at an angle. Simply bending that U piece into the correct shape fixed the problem; the motor works perfectly now.

Since then I've encountered another car where both recently rebuilt motors were malfunctioning. Cleaning and aligning the limit switch contacts solved those problems, too.

I think that there's a difference in resilience between the factory rubber bushings and the ones that Rodney supplies. I also think that the quality control on those limit switch assemblies was somewhat less than perfect. So what we see at this point in time is limit switches that were just barely good enough to work with the factory bushings, but not close enough to work with new Rodney bushings in place. When this happens, checking / correcting the contact alignment and cleaning the contacts fixes the problem.

Bump, 'cause I'm using this thread as we speak.

just wanted to add this info so i dont have to do the research again.

The isolation relay part number is 10022620. located on the left fender bulkhead.
it might be called a control module in the price books
and i could NOT get a correct part number from any of the autopart stores web sites.
they all want to sell you the headlight motor relay by mistake

the headlight motor control relays are next to each headlight mounted on the assemblys
gm 10031018 and/or 10027587

Oreillys
borgwarner R3230

Delco
D1874

Autozone
MR86

Parts America
niehoff DR5049

Napa
ECH AR690

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 06-30-2007).]

After reading this and a few other threads, I'm still trying to decide whether I "need" a rebuild kit to fix this particular problem or if my immediate issue is the limit switch. My passenger side headlight goes up and down fine. At the end of travel the knob continues to spin.
As the up/down travel works great, I'd think the gear was "ok". When I opened it and inspected it, I found 3 worn/damaged teeth. Could three teeth cause this continous spin / failure to disable the motor (?) Yes, the bumpers are gone as well. I don't mind replacing the gear and bumpers, but I'd be annoyed if I spent $35/70 and the problem persisted due to a alignment issue with the limit switch. -Mark

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: Examining the limit switches carefully revealed that the U shaped brass piece that the contacts are mounted on wasn't bent correctly. Instead of the two sides being parallel to each other, the "bad" side was at an angle. Simply bending that U piece into the correct shape fixed the problem; the motor works perfectly now. Since then I've encountered another car where both recently rebuilt motors were malfunctioning. Cleaning and aligning the limit switch contacts solved those problems, too. . When this happens, checking / correcting the contact alignment and cleaning the contacts fixes the problem.

yep those two~three teeth are all that it takes.

Ok, Thanks. I saw somewhere these gears used to cost $25, now it's $35 ea. Ouch, I guess it's just supply and demand.

dang this thing was hard to find just now

i just video taped myself rebuilding a motor, but dont know how to host it.
see this thread if you can help
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/047465.html

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: just wanted to add this info so i dont have to do the research again. The isolation relay part number is 10022620. located on the left fender bulkhead. it might be called a control module in the price books and i could NOT get a correct part number from any of the autopart stores web sites. they all want to sell you the headlight motor relay by mistake the headlight motor control relays are next to each headlight mounted on the assemblys gm 10031018 Oreillys borgwarner R3230 Delco D1874 Autozone MR86 Parts America niehoff DR5049 Napa ECH AR690

OK, this is where I need some help.

Buddy, gimme a little help and anyone else who has a thought on this too.

I have a local kid whose girlfriend just bought a 86 coupe, he told me about it and said the headlights don't go up or down, I said bring it by and I'll rebuild the motors for you.

Well he came by today and I found that the previous owner had rebuilt the motors but they did not work.

I pulled one and checked it over, good rebuild so lets look elsewhere for the problem.

Found the white power wire at the headlight switch had been cut, don't know why.

I repaired it and when I put everything back together with the switch in the off position the left headlight went down, the right did not.

Turn the lights on and motor wise nothing happens, (the headlights do go on).

I checked the wiring using the shop manual diagram and everything looks OK, power where it should be and a good ground.

So here's a question about the relays that I think may be the problem.

The relays on the headlight assemblies are the same, is the isolation relay mounted on the chasis to the left of the left headlight relay the same as the two on the headlight assemblies?

From the above info I quoted from you Buddy it looks like it is not but I think in this instance all three relays, for some unknown reason, are the same.

LMK what you guys think.

Steve

fierohoho,

the isolation relay is different! I just went through all this in the last few weeks. all 3 relays plug in the same but the isolation relay is different. the gm # is 10022620. My local GM dealer still has 1 if you want it. it is just over $20.00, I can buy it and ship it to you.

the other headlight relays are NAPA #AR690

the car I bought didn't have any relays, but once i got the right isolation relay and read the first part of this thread i got my headlights to work.

I would go out and look at the wire but it just got done raining.

Brad

[This message has been edited by partsman (edited 06-21-2007).]

Great thread.....as im going to be rebuilding my motors in a couple of weeks, this will me my manual

thanks for the write up, extremely helpful. + to you.

quote Originally posted by partsman: all 3 relays plug in the same but the isolation relay is different. the gm # is 10022620.

what he said...

i've seen two different part numbers for the 2 head light motor relays, but there is only one part number for the isolation relay.
and the isolation relay and the headlight motor relays are wired different.

so far i have not found an aftermarket supplier for them.

I spent over an hour diagnosing this kids headlight system and narrowed it to the relay which you have confirmed, thanks guys.

Hmmmm, I wonder if whoever rebuilt the motors didn't mix up the three relays and the isolation relay is on one of the headlight assemblies by mistake, I'll have to check.

Steve

if you cant read the GM part number 10022620 on the relay then it's an aftermarket one.
and i'll bet money that it is not a correct replacement.

infact i'll pay someone 10 bucks if they can give me the part number for one that can be bought from Napa, Advanced, Auto zone or Oreillys. i have exhausted all the choices i could find.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: infact i'll pay someone 10 bucks if they can give me the part number for one that can be bought from Napa

I called the NAPA Echlin tech line today and tried to cross the GM Number. it did not cross! I will try to again Monday, You never know if you call back and get someone that really wants to help sometimes the 2nd call works. NAPA also has other relays that have the same plug. maybe I can get a wire diagram and figure something out.

Brad

[This message has been edited by partsman (edited 06-22-2007).]

you can rule out AR185. i've personally tested that one in a car.

I tried a AR185 too. lol

quote Originally posted by partsman: maybe I can get a wire diagram and figure something out.

Heads up make sure you use a silicone based lube or grease on your gears anything petrolium based will weaken and disintegrate your nylon gears and other fragile plastic parts.

quote Originally posted by Curlrup: Heads up make sure you use a silicone based lube or grease on your gears anything petrolium based will weaken and disintegrate your nylon gears and other fragile plastic parts.

funny the old stuff sure looks like petrolium base, but i haven't tasted it to be sure.
i use the same red grease that i use with my polly suspension.

I hope someone can help a newbie to this forum. I have an 86SE I bought new and has 85,000 original miles. I plan to keep it forever.

I replaced a stripped gear in the right headlight motor with the Rodney Dickman gear along with the supplied hard rubber bumpers. I did everything like the writeup explained. When all was put together I had that knob twich. I had the D seal messed up the first time. I fixed that but still had the twich and have taken the motor apart 3 or 4 more times and can't see anything wrong. I cleaned the commutator, have new limit switches, cleaned contacts to relays and swapped the left and right relays. The darn thing still twiches. I have considered cutting a little off the spring between the limit switch fingers so it wouldn't be as hard to compress thus letting them engage the limit switch easier. I need help. I bought another gear to do the left headlight but I don't want to do it until I get the right one working.

I was comparing the left and right motors again today since I had them out because I have to replace the radiator. Plastic radiators, what a stroke of genius. Anyway the motors "feel" the same when turn them by hand with the exception that when the lights get to the open position and the motor starts compressing the limit switch spring, the rebuilt motor has to make over 3 turns before I hear the limit switch while the old on only turns 2 times.

Help!

Here is buddy's videos on rebuilding the motors. Might help:

http://www.youtube.com/prof...user=buddycraigg&p=r

quote Originally posted by 600racer: I hope someone can help a newbie to this forum. I have an 86SE I bought new and has 85,000 original miles. I plan to keep it forever. I replaced a stripped gear in the right headlight motor with the Rodney Dickman gear along with the supplied hard rubber bumpers. I did everything like the writeup explained. When all was put together I had that knob twich. I had the D seal messed up the first time. I fixed that but still had the twich and have taken the motor apart 3 or 4 more times and can't see anything wrong. I cleaned the commutator, have new limit switches, cleaned contacts to relays and swapped the left and right relays. The darn thing still twiches. I have considered cutting a little off the spring between the limit switch fingers so it wouldn't be as hard to compress thus letting them engage the limit switch easier. I need help. I bought another gear to do the left headlight but I don't want to do it until I get the right one working. I was comparing the left and right motors again today since I had them out because I have to replace the radiator. Plastic radiators, what a stroke of genius. Anyway the motors "feel" the same when turn them by hand with the exception that when the lights get to the open position and the motor starts compressing the limit switch spring, the rebuilt motor has to make over 3 turns before I hear the limit switch while the old on only turns 2 times. Help!

there are a few of us that have seen this problem more than once and are no longer using any cushion at all.
myself included

That idea crossed my mind also. It sort of made sense with plastic gears. So leaving out the bumpers might fix it?

quote Originally posted by 600racer: That idea crossed my mind also. It sort of made sense with plastic gears. So leaving out the bumpers might fix it?

it has in every case i've experenced.
i use to use some hard nylon pegs from the hardware store, now i just fill the gear with JB weld.

i've been wanting to do this for a while now.
i am not the first person to do a write up on how to rebuild the headlight motors
these next 9 pages are scans from the FOCOA 1997 magazine about rebuilding headlight motors that i ran across about 4 months ago.
more information is always a good thing.
but pay attention, cause i am going to point out a few errors... and bad information is worse than no information.

cover
.
.
page 1
.
.
page 2
.
.

this is incorrect. the plastic gear actually rotates about 300 degrees.
so once a gear is stripped out, it needs to be replaced.
page 3
.
.

they are four 10mm nuts with big washers built on to them.
just wanted to point this out so you know what you are looking for.


they are 11 mm nuts, not 10.
a 7/16" can be used in it's place


you need a 1/4" socket not 7mm.

page 4
.
.

i dont even know what to say about this.
it's just incorrect.
page 5
.
.
page 6
.
.
page 7
.
.
page 8

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 09-12-2007).]

Bump for BuddyCraigg

Your videos helped me out alot, thanks. Keep up the escellent work. Four stars.

quote Originally posted by Daredevil05: Bump for BuddyCraigg Your videos helped me out alot, thanks. Keep up the escellent work. Four stars.

thanks.
i was kinda hesitant to put them up cause now you all know how big of a dork i am.

actually, i'm not a dork in real life. i just play one on youtube.

My stock gen 1 motors still work, but I think the left one will go in a few months. This thread's awesome. Thanks buddycraig!

------------------
1986 SE V6, stock, auto, fastback. GT Trim and Body panels.

god i dont want to look for that again
the headlight motor schematic is on page 994 in the 1986 service repair manual pdf file.

i made a couple of thread so we dont have to keep typing the same questions over and over again

testing the headlight motor in the car
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087089.html

testing the controlling circuit
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087090.html

Dont you ever sleep?

yeah, and then i dream about headlight motors.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: it has in every case i've experenced. i use to use some hard nylon pegs from the hardware store, now i just fill the gear with JB weld.

I finally got around to trying the JB Weld in my new gear. It worked! That is after I got the magnet turned around right. I had already bought another gear from Rodney Dickman to do the other headlight while I had it in my mind the little things I learned to do and not to do even though it still worked fine. As luck would have it the old plastic gear looked near perfect but I replaced it anyway. Filled it full of JB Weld and it worked the first time! Your videos on youtube.com were invaluable.

Buddy, I just wanted to thank you for your input. BTW, if you want the old good plastic gear, just tell me where to send it since I know you do alot of motors.

[This message has been edited by 600racer (edited 11-12-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 600racer: Buddy, I just wanted to thank you for your input. BTW, if you want the old good plastic gear, just tell me where to send it since I know you do alot of motors.

i really appreciate you sending me your old gear.
but believe it or not, it isn't a good gear.
so it's good that you went ahead and bought 2 gears from Rodney.