i'm taking a smoke break from rebuilding a set of gen 1 version 2 motors from an 84.
they have some differences that i'm really excited about.
i'll post pics after i'm finished, but i'm just so excited i had to say something now.

I recently started having a problem with my motors. First off the motors were rebuilt about 5 years ago and have worked perfectly in two different cars. Both 85SE's only differences are the options.

Last night coming home from work everything was perfect. Got home shut them down and went in for the night as usual.

This morning I got up for work and the passenger side does not go up or back down. I manually raised the motor to test the down motion only. I ran the motor up and down maually with the switch on and off. HINT: Use a ball point in the holes on the nob to raise and lower the motor quickly by hand. I'm certail at this point that the passenger side relay has gone out. I have a spare so I grab at lunch and throw it in the car thinking it is going to work. It doesn't. I raise the passenger headlight so I can see on the way home. Its dark when I go to work and when I go home. I hardly get to see the sun on days like today. Course I have to make a stop and when I shut off the car only one headlight goes down.

So I finally get home later tonight. I double check the wiring, relay plugs (all 3 relays) and two single plugs and find nothing out of place and all wires are perfect as far as I can tell. I have not done the incar test yet but I dont think the problem is in the wiring. I decide to pull the bucket and take it in the house for a closer look in the light. I remove limit switch cover to check out the brushes and armature. Everything looks suprisingly clean (it has been less then 5 years since then were rebuilt). I resurface the brushes with a very fine curved file (dollar store mini file set, nothing special). I also clean the armature to ensure a cood connection. Limit switch is cleaned and everything appears to making contact where it needs to. I put it all back together and back into the car and try it again. Still nothing. I think there is no quiestion that it is the relay so I switch the one that is still working from the drivers side just to confirm . The passenger side goes up! Progress at last I think... but it wont go down. So I switch the relay back to the drivers side. It goes up but now... it wont go down.

This is getting wierd. I double check that all three relays have the correct GM part numbers just in case my spare happened to be an isolation relay and I didn't notice. Maybe I switched them out on some stupid moment or something. Nope. Isolation relay 10022626. Other two 10027587. But this is all kind of pointless as everything was working less then 24 hours ago.

Ok now my head hurts but theres more....

I manually put both down motors with the switch off. I flip the switch again to put up the drivers side and figure I'll just manually raise the passenger and call it a night. Nothing happens. I go to put the extra relay back into the passenger side. As soon as I start plugging the grey plug into the relay the drivers side motor goes up. That is NOT a typo. I put the relay in the passengers side and the drivers side light went up.

I play with the switch a little and see if its just not getting a good connection. Until that point I had no reason to suspect it as the driver side always worked. Cant find a problem.

I'm sorry to post such a long reply but I am really not sure what I should be replacing. I will start with running the jumper test without the relays to see if I can at least actually narrow it down to them. Autozone has the correct relays but they have to be ordered and need 2-3 days to arrive. Figures. Well the whole day has gone like this in pretty much every aspect. If this is like the rest of the day I probably lost all 3 relays in less then 24 hours, That would be consistant with the rest of the day. I have played with these motors many times and never seen the oddities that I have seen tonight. So many inconsistancies I can't narrow the problem. It is defiantely an electrical problem and that is all I can tell for sure until I do the test tomorrow. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-07-2007).]

crazy.
after you do the in car test repost back. i'm intersted.

did you see my videos of the in car test? they might help.
i pretty much follow the steps straight out of the factory service manual.
but i use the fused tail light circuit to get my power from instead of using the hot wire from the fusable link.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 12-07-2007).]

I saw your videos. Good job!

I got up this morning to find a new problem also. Nothing major and I figure I did it last night. I blew the taillight fuse. I don't know if that will effect the headlight or not but I figured I would throw it out there just in case anyone knows for sure.

EDIT: FYI I am going to send you some dash bulbs for great write up and future help with my headlight problem. Where do I send them to?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I got up this morning to find a new problem also. Nothing major and I figure I did it last night. I blew the taillight fuse. I don't know if that will effect the headlight or not but I figured I would throw it out there just in case anyone knows for sure.

i was expecting that when you said this.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I think there is no quiestion that it is the relay so I switch the one that is still working from the drivers side just to confirm . The passenger side goes up! Progress at last I think... but it wont go down. So I switch the relay back to the drivers side. It goes up but now... it wont go down.

let us know what happens with the test.

Yes the tail light fuse does affect the headlights since the down power comes from the tail light fuse...

When the LH side went up when you plugged in the RH side relay is crazy but can happen.

Looking at the schemo, it sounds like you have relay contacts welded shut inside the relay or arm broke inside.

Would be interesting to take the cover off the relays and have a look.

Has it been wet a lot lately. (I ask as I see where you live) The relays could be full of rust also.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 12-07-2007).]

Ok. I went to auto parts store an picked up some fuses today. I pulled the old one out and it wasn't just burnt out, it was melted a bit. When I replaced the fuse for the taillights both headlights went down. So both motors work both ways. Motors eliminated. Switch works also so I am going to order a new passenger side relay and the problem should be solved. I did not run the jumper test and don't feel that I need to at this point because I can make both motors work with my single good relay.

The only questionable problem was the passenger side relay causing the driver headlight to go up. I'm going to consider that a fluke. Very odd but even after switching the relays back again I have not been able to repeat the effect. I am guessing the extra relay I had had the contacts welded together and caused all the problems. I must have been just the sequence in which everything happened that had me all confused. It will be a couple days before my relay comes in but I will let you guys know how it turns out.

Dodgerunner: To answer your question, YES. Its always wet here. It rains near 275 days a year. I took the cover off of the old passenger relay and it didn't look bad just dirty but no rust. Probably just not making the connection.
Thanks again to both of you for all your help.

Still need that addy buddycraig so I can send you some dash bulbs.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Has it been wet a lot lately. (I ask as I see where you live) The relays could be full of rust also.

i have people come to me all the time cause a motor stopped working.
i find the relay laying next to the head light instead of attached to the bracket.

and guess what...
they're full of water due to a recent rain or car wash.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 12-07-2007).]

Oops. Here is that second "G".

I'm sure that a few poeple that got them are wating to put them in this weekend. So I may still get my pics pretty soon. I appreciate your work getting this info out there. It sure helped me out a bunch. PM me that addy and I will get them out first thing monday. Later.

Hi there, I watched your video, and did the test on my motor, and it looks like it's got a stripped gear. It goes up fine, and the limit switch works, but when it goes down, the motor never stops and makes a grinding noise (and the limit switch doesn't move.) What would be the cheapest fix for this?


BTW thanks so much for all this valuable info! What a time and money saver!

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Hi there, I watched your video, and did the test on my motor, and it looks like it's got a stripped gear. It goes up fine, and the limit switch works, but when it goes down, the motor never stops and makes a grinding noise (and the limit switch doesn't move.) What would be the cheapest fix for this? BTW thanks so much for all this valuable info! What a time and money saver!

you need a new gear.
i head last week that Rodney Dickman was out of the new brass gears.
and i dont know of anyone else that sells them.
something that may buy you some borrowed time is to take this arm off and rotate it 180 degrees.


you have a stripped gear, and nothing is going to change that.
rotating the arm will simply put the bad part in a spot where the head light is about half way up.
but at least you will have good teeth at the point that the motor needs to click open the limit switch.

the headlight might get about half way up and need some help from you to get past the stripped part of the gear.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 12-15-2007).]

I found a new relay at Schucks (Checker, part america, ect.). They were the only place that had one in stock. They also offer a 1 year replacement warrenty on them. Napa told me they did not even have anything listed. Autozone was a 3 day wait.

Anyways, I checked out the website to get the part number and they have three different ones available. Niehoff, Gp sorenson, and an AC Delco. Prices go up in that order also (11.99, 24.99, 34.99). I can get the part numbers if anyone wants them. The niehoff is the only one they had in stock so I went with that one. It was 11.99 on the website (14.99 in store). I called the local stores to find one in stock and spoke to a guy named Alex. Because I had the part number for him and called it in he gave me a 10% discount off of the web price. It ended up costing me 9.89 for the relay. Problem solved. Both headlights work in both directions again. Just wanted to report back with the details. Thank you for posting up this thread.

Buddycraigg, you bulbs will go out tomorrow. Does your car have the aux gauges in it?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-09-2007).]

good to hear Fieroseverywhere.
no aux gauges.

Prior to my headlight gear stripping this summer my battery went dead twice if left for several days without use. Bought a new battery replaced the headlight gear everything went fine as long as I was using the car every once in a while. Then I let it sit for two weeks, battery dead again. I bought another battery, while installing the cables is drew a big arc. To make a long story short. The headlight makes a delay clicking noise. You can feel the top knob move with each click and it's warm to the touch. What can it be?

Your videos are excellent for the DIY.

Dave

[This message has been edited by Daredevil05 (edited 12-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Daredevil05: The headlight makes a delay clicking noise. You can feel the top knob move with each click and it's warm to the touch. What can it be?

i lovingly call that the Sanderson effect.
i mentioned it in this thread as well as spoke about it in the video.

if you didn't get this rubber seal in the correct spot when you put your motor back together.
it will keep the armature from moving down and opening the limit switch.


or sometimes armature just doesn't move enough.
did you use the rubber inserts with the brass gear?
read this thread on how the limit switch works for more info.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/068642.html

Thanks for your quick responce. I'll let you know the outcome this weekend until then I'll disconnect the right headlight until I get to it. I have to replace the long overdue heater core on my Durango, I have alot on my plate for now. Local shops in my area are asking about six and seven hundred for the job. I'll be doing it myself being the fact that my tranny is starting to slip from 1st to 2nd. I'l rather save money and put towards my tranny instead. I wish it was as easy as my 84 heater core.

Dave

[This message has been edited by Daredevil05 (edited 12-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: i'm taking a smoke break from rebuilding a set of gen 1 version 2 motors from an 84. they have some differences that i'm really excited about. i'll post pics after i'm finished, but i'm just so excited i had to say something now.

here's the biggest difference.
i'm pretty sure no one has been in these motors before.
but look at the brushes.
the one on the left is the strange one.
the one on the right is what i've always seen before.

notice the brushes are larger, and even have a braided strand soldered to the brush arms...

i've never seen these before, even in the gen 1 version 1 motors (smooth knob motors).

I've just had the same problem with my passenger side headlight. Goes up and stops correctly, goes down fully and the knob keeps spinning. battery flat too.So I just took everything out, and took the motor apart. The bump stops were perfect.The gear had three teeth partially stripped, and the part that was stripped was actually wedged into the next 'slot' or groove of the gear. I pushed it out with a screwdriver, and cleaned out all the teeth on both parts. I can't get the gears delivered quickly to Spain, and so I checked the travel on the plastic gear, and can confirm it doesn't make a full 360 degrees in normal function. So I am going to try to turn the gear on the shaft just enough so that the gear stops just before getting to the damaged teeth. Anyway, I wanted to clear something in my puzzled head here: which came first? The stripped thread, or the cut-out switch failing, causing the motor to continue to try to turn the gear, thereby actually breaking off the nylon (plastic) teeth. It seems in MY case it was the latter, because the cut-out switch wasn't being activated by the torque generated when the headlight reached its full extension, or retraction in my case. So I am going to try to mount the gear 90 degrees further round, so the stripped gear will not be used. But that will be tomorrow, cos it is cold and dark outside now
Buddycraigg, thanks very much for all the hard work..and your videos had me cracking up You are a natural..do a screen test for 'Tool-time', if it ever comes back again_ !
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-01-2009).]

quote you need a new gear. i head last week that Rodney Dickman was out of the new brass gears. and i dont know of anyone else that sells them.

The opriginal maker of the brass gears for the 85-86 headlight motors was a guy by the name of Alan Mooty from Florida. Don't know if he is still supplying them but I wouldn't be surprised if this is where Rodney buys them.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: here's the biggest difference. i'm pretty sure no one has been in these motors before. but look at the brushes. the one on the left is the strange one. the one on the right is what i've always seen before. notice the brushes are larger, and even have a braided strand soldered to the brush arms... i've never seen these before, even in the gen 1 version 1 motors (smooth knob motors).

When I saw that picture the light blub went on. That is a great way to fix bushes that have worn out or fallen apart. I always thought you could JB weld or glue a new brush on the spring but how to get good connectivity. getting a brush with the lead and soldering it onto the spring lower would work great...

There are bushes with a lot lighter lead than those have on them.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 01-01-2009).]

can't be a cheapskate, considering I have sold the car...so yes..Rodney Dickman does still have the gears, and I have ordered for both headlights
Thanks again, Buddycraigg!
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-02-2009).]

Believe they still will, the smooth knobs where from the early models I believe. A quick look and it will be easy to tell.

Thanks Dodgerunner I think they are the same
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 01-02-2009).]

I found something to cut the cement, oops a mean GM grease. Go to the hardware store and get some Acetone. Soak the gears in it and it will soften the grease right up. I soaked the intermediate gear for 30 minutes and it cleaned right up with a tooth brush. Looks like new with little to no effort.
Bob

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: oops, sorry bruce, i just saw your post. i charge 75 for a left motor and 85 for a right. good used gears are very hard to find so a lot of the cost is in parts.

why the price difference?

quote Originally posted by mattwa: why the price difference?

the shaft for the right side motors are getting hard to find in good shape.

Thanks for this thread

I'm back again! This time with a differernt fiero and a different problem. I know its in the wiring but I'm unsure where to look...

Went to jump in the fiero to head to work today. Started right up. Went to flip on the lights... nothing. No dash lights, running lights, and the headlights will not pop up. The bulbs turn on but will not pop up. Tried to replace the fuse for the dash lights but it immediately popped again. Swapped out the headlight switch and replaced the fuse again... this time it worked. Everything turns on the the lights pop up. Made it to work without a problem. Figured it was the switch.

Went to head home after work, flipped the switch... nothing again. Fuse is blown... again. WTF? Got home and tried yet another fuse, it popped immediately. Checked harness at headlights, no obvious faults. Relays all seem to be working (they were yesterday). Stuck in a another fuse and it worked. I decided to head to the auto parts store and pick up a circuit breaker as I know this won't be the last time. Went to leave and again the fuse is dead. Ok, this is not F'ing funny anymore.

Once I got home I put in the circuit breaker to try to narrow down the problem (fuses were getting expensive!). Immediately both headlights pop up. This is odd since the switch is OFF. Then I hear the oddest sound. Almost like the motors are fighting themselves. Breaker trips and I wait for it to cool. I disconnect the blue (down) wires hoping maybe both the up and down wires are getting power at the same time (not even sure how that is possible ). Breaker comes back on and all sounds stop, all lights work, but I can't lower the headlights. I plug in the blue wires again and nothing happens (they should go down). I'm really frusterated at this point and walk away to grab a smoke. Out of nowhere that awful sound comes back. WTF! Everything is off including the ignition!

My question is what circuit ties the headlight motors into the running lights? There must be a short there and I figure it must be something that gets constant power. I wasn't aware they were wired together at all with the exception of the headlight switch. The motors and limit switches are fine and all the lights work when the breaker is on and the blue wires are disconnected (this is probably the key). Isolation relay or wiring somewhere?

I am repairing a headlight motor on my 1984 Fiero. I have already repaired the passenger side and it works fine. I am now working on the drivers side motor. I am in the progress of putting it back together and have found an o-ring on my repair table. I do not remember seeing this o ring on the passenger side motor. I believe that the o ring may have come off of the plastic case. Has anyone seen an o ring that fits in the case.

Thanks.

Only worked on a few, but the case was always sealed with white silicone sealant .
brian

A friendly bump for our many newcomers. This is a fantastic thread and worth keeping at the top. (should be a sticky)

I have one question that is not answered anywhere... What is the size of the replacement bumpers? I found somewhere the gen 2's were just shy of 1/2" but i know these are smaller.

Anybody?

I have done it two different ways (we'll see how long each repair lasts). On one motor, I used fiero Jon's rebuild kit. The other motor, I filled the pockets with hot melt glue. If I have to do it again, I would just get the rebuild kit from Jon. He sells kits on ebay for like $19.00. I don't know that I trust that hot melt stuff...but we'll see what motor fails first.

I probably didn't answer your question but I have a fondness for the gen headlight setup. :-)

I can tell you it was a very tight fit getting Jon's bumpers in the 4 pockets...I worked at it for a couple minutes.

[This message has been edited by Brians86SE (edited 01-29-2011).]