Other than the codes I'm not sure if the other values tell you anything or not. Would have to do some testing to see if what is displayed is the last reading the engine had before it was shut off or just values it goes to when powered on. If you look at the INT and BLM thay are setting at the nominal value which is where they would start out. The IAC "might" read what the ecm thinks is a start position. Would be interested to see if the MAP is reading whatever the current atmosphere pressure is or not. That would be interesting because a person could come up with a table of readings based on current pressure to compare their MAP sensor to. The O2 table is really not of any value since the ecm output log data at such a slow rate and the adv. reading are right around the switch point for a narrow O2 anyway.
The BLM table is interesting. It is telling you that you run rich at lower rpm's and light loads, and lean to high rpms and at heavier load. Other than the rich a the low end it look similar to what my 88gt and 3800SuperFast's does.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 07-09-2006).]

** however would this be a very low level base line, and looks like it tells the defferance between the diff cars? Yes/No?? **
Well to be honest---NO---you have to run both cars and take 2 similar logs to compare them to--they will read the same or close to the same if you have both engines *cold* and that isn`t telling you what you want/need to know>>>>from the long big articale above::Anytime the system is not in closed loop, the Integrator will immediately return to a value of 128 and stay there.:: If your just looking for a base to compare/see around what is suggested --look above at what 2000RagTop posted in the dionostic circut check from the service manual. Is this helping some?? That great big articale/post at the begining pretty much says it all--I had to keep re-reading it for it to make more sence. If you would like, take a few logs on both cars like descibed in the other post--pm me---I`ll pm back with my email address, then run both logs for you, the send them back with results.. You do know what we mean when we say get all the trash out of the logs before you run them through Win-View?? I don`t use excell I use micro-soft spread sheet--dodgerunner uses excell--either case the values & #`s will come out the same after removing the trash from them, ex: if you see a column that has goofy values --delete it---if you see any thing at all with zeros in it --delete it---if you see anything that your application does not apply to which will be zero`s & $ signs in them--delete them--then try Win-View. Winaldl was also for other Gm cars --so there will be things that don`t apply to us....Keep at it---thats how I learned.........

Thanks lads, I will PM you with my email address and send you both my cars txt files, of which both have ~8 mins clocked.

What I have seen with the cars cold is the TPS reading, which would show the value when TB is closed, and could give a pointer to it being out, I am not sure if the ECM calibrates to the volts seen to set its self at zero, or do we have to have a fixed value by adjusting TPS manually. Also battery voltage before turning the key. Just small areas. Or I am missing the point completely.

I am in accounting and use Excel all the time so when looking at the date in spread sheet form I am able to clean up and work on the averaging. However due to the runs, not being identical is still had to view the two together.

What I did try was to take the file and use only data that is at temp, then sort by RPM to try and get data that should match, the only thing that I would be missing is matching the speed, of which I can not do until I get the code sorted out on the car one. However the info shows that I have some differences which I will post once I reviewed it some more.

I think that should we be able to match RPM with Speed and insure that the car is up to temp, we could see some interesting details, as this would bring into play engine loads, at a given speed and rpm instead of by time. (Hope that I explain this OK) Due to different driving conditions (stop lights traffic, up hill down hill, its hard to compare cars) However by marching the rpm, and speed we should get a better view. What do you think or am I smoking something

bump

Bump! Very in teresting topic...keep it rolling!!!

quote Originally posted by VenturaFiero: I think that should we be able to match RPM with Speed and insure that the car is up to temp, we could see some interesting details, as this would bring into play engine loads, at a given speed and rpm instead of by time. (Hope that I explain this OK) Due to different driving conditions (stop lights traffic, up hill down hill, its hard to compare cars) However by marching the rpm, and speed we should get a better view. What do you think or am I smoking something

This should help explain it better--this needs to be read ,over & over again. Once you get the idea of this & the large articale right above it on page 1 of the post, it makes better sense, remember average here: this is why dodgerunner & my-self ask for logs that are on a flat road , 55mph, 15---20 miles/minute--- runs/logs , when you first learn this : average :

Many have asked me why the chip needs reprogramming if the fuel tuning is self adjusting. Well, its kind of like the difference between a cheap $200 paint job and a nice shiny $2000 paint job. If the ECM has to do a lot of self-tuning, there are some situations where although the car will be drivable, it will not be smooth and steady, but hesitant and sluggish. The best way to explain why this happens is to look at Figure 1 above once more. Look at the 2000 RPM row and the 40 - 70 range of MAP. Say you have been steadily cruising along at 2000 RPM and 70 MAP (up a significant hill). Also say the BLM at this load point settled at around 118, so the VE table at 2000 RPM and 70 MAP is too rich, requiring the subtraction of 8% (118/128) less fuel. Also say earlier in the day you were cruising at 2000 RPM and 60 MAP on a flatter road. Say that at this load point the BLM settled at 138. This would mean that the VE table value at 2000 RPM and 60 MAP is too lean by 8% (138/128). If we assume that the lines I drew on the chart are the BLM cell boundaries, then we have established that within the same cell, you can have drastically different BLMs. When this happens, your engine will surge, hesitate, and in general feel like it may run out of gas at any moment. It won't, it just feels that way. The reason is this. Say you were cruising at the 2000 RPM and 70 MAP load point for quite some time resulting in the same 118 BLM. Then you quickly peaked a hill and were going down the other side at 2000 RPM at 40 MAP. Now you have jumped from one cell to a lower one. Once you get to the bottom of the hill, you start back up a flatter hill at 2000 RPM and 60 MAP. You would feel a sluggishness and reluctance to go for a few seconds until the integrator and BLM could correct the mixture. What happened is that at 2000 RPM and 60 MAP, the VE table is too lean (138 BLM), but the last time you were in this cell, your BLM was 118 and it stayed there when you left the cell. So now, you are 17% too lean because you are running a 118 BLM where it needs to be 138. This is 16% (118/138) too little fuel. The engine would feel sluggish here for a few seconds until closed loop could correct it. In a very short time of probably less than 10 seconds, the 118 BLM will rise up to 138 BLM, so once you reach a steady unchanging load, the engine will smooth out. In the situation I have just described, the calibration is marginally matched to the engine, although it will run the engine and you can live with the car. But when you adjust the VE tables such that all VE table values in the same cell yield the same BLM, the engine will run much smoother. It doesn't mean the calibration is right, but better suited for the engine. What this means is that a well tuned chip smooths out the transitions from one load point to another so that you can't tell when you've crossed into another cell. Ideally, each load point in the VE table should have had its own floating BLM value, but I imagine that the processor memory and speed were insufficient to handle this complex of a task in the early to mid 1980s when this stuff was created. So, the goal of tuning using the WINALDL program on my site is to get all the BLM values to remain at 128 throughout all the different load points on the BLM chart above.

bump

bump

my head just exploded,
and i dont mean in a cheerleader in a soapy shower kind of way.

i mean that was just too much to read.

Hey Buddy, Trying to understand all that crap was no day at the beach either....lol..

i cannot get aldl view to open my logs is there anything i need to do with it?

Do you see the files to open? If you do and they don't open it's usually the format of the file or bad data in the file.

If you can open the file in excel or another spreadsheet program you can verify that all the columns have a label and good data.
If you want to send me the file I'll take a look and let you know what it might be so you can correct them in the future.

Dodgerunner@yahoo.com

bump into my favorites. I also have a very high BLM and need to download the viewer.

you know where to get it?


https://www.fiero.nl/download/ALDLViewSetup0.1-1.exe

Can anyone help me with what the spark advance is referenceing? Mine is at 52 degrees, and thats not good in my opinion for advancing the spark. If the timing is set correctly the advance should be zero correct?

No tthe timing you set is the base level. the ecm assumes 8 degrees, the spec. the 52 is the total advance effectively, and likely only a short term spike.
It is a function of the algorithm it uses base don such things as the map, rpm, temp, etc. if it is sitting there constantly, then there is something wrong tho.
All gas engines require the timing to change in relation to rpm (way to much theory on the why's ahd how muches to get into here). formerly that was contolled by spring loaded weights and a vacuum unit in the distributor. Now that is soley the responsibility fo the ecm to determine the correct advance for the rpm, temp, loading, adn requests for power or not.

Edit: added more explanation.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 12-28-2006).]

BUMP
Away from archives!
Because I will be posting my info as soon as I can get a good run in.

Wish I had found this thread before starting another one

Anyone can help or suggest better trial run? The problem I'm trying to solve is a stumble.

Car was running too rough with this installed to really go anywhere:
At an Idle

Thank you.

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www.FieroDomain.com
Over 120 Fiero Links, Articles, Images, Diagnostics

"If any car is both the parade and the rain, it is the Fiero"

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 04-29-2007).]

Can't open it. email it if you want.

I Fixed the link, the link-shortener killed the first one.

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 04-29-2007).]

Ok, do you have aldlview?

If so open you file in it and goto the sensor data section and display the O2. Your's appears to be DEAD! it should be switching up and down between .1 and .9 volts. Yours is doing nothing. Since your engine is a 160* plus it should be hot enough you should be getting some activity from the O2. Since the O2 is not working the ecm is just guessing at what to run the fuel mix at.

The other indication is the rich/lean counter. In case others don't know what is field of data is, it should be a saw tooth looking graph. Each time the O2 switches from rich to lean this value is incremented one count. Once the count reaches 256 it goes to zero and starts over. So is should be a smooth ramp from 0 to 256, drop to 0 and do it again. This is a good value to look at for the health of your O2. If the ramp is not smooth then you know the O2 is hick-up-ing and not switching well. Good indicator that you need a new one...

Hope that's a new item some of you didn't know.....

DR

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 04-30-2007).]

Thank you very much!

So the fact the O2 is staying level indicates its not working? This sensor is brand new, any reasons why it may not be functioning? Or perhaps they gave me the wrong type, I've been given a lot of the wrong parts lately.

Red: O2
Blue: Rich/Lean Counter


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www.FieroDomain.com
Over 120 Fiero Links, Articles, Images, Diagnostics

"If any car is both the parade and the rain, it is the Fiero"

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 04-30-2007).]

A past member here had a problem with the O2 sensor plug. The contact inside had pushed itself up inside the holder and when he plugged the O2 sensor in it wasn't making contact. You could check yours out to see if it is making contact by using a wire probe and checking the resistance across the plug connection.

Connection seems good. What are the odds of a dead sensor right out of the box? I remember hearing about wideband/narrowband O2 sensors, is it possible they gave me a wideband one? I'm curious about that since it seems to give a smooth reading rather than high/low. Recently almost every part I've bought has been wrong, and this is from where I work

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 04-30-2007).]

Wideband is heated, 5 wire sensor.

Okay. Guess I can try swapping the O2.

------------------
www.FieroDomain.com
Over 120 Fiero Links, Articles, Images, Diagnostics

"If any car is both the parade and the rain, it is the Fiero"

bump to keep alive

bump

Good stuff i'll be using.

How long was the motor running at that point? some o2's will take a while to start, depending on the temps of the exhaust system.
I cna tell you that you don;t wnat one that starts too fast, makes for a nice stutter when the system goes closed loop too soon.
It should, however, start by the time most motors reach 140-150 at the cts.

guess I should read the posting dates. anyway, info still applies.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 02-14-2008).]

Who can help me with a log file.txt from winALDL?

I have logd a short time while drive the fiero, and I like to know if the data is normal?
The car is a 85 V6 automatic and I think the gear is not working properly.

there are no error codes.

the first gear is going form 1 to 2 by 4200 rpm ( my 88GT wil do the same by 2800 rpm )?
also the kickdown is not working, (have all automatic's a kickdown? )
The engine looks like one sparkplug is not working, when the car is a little bit hot it drives a little bit better but not good?

I can't put the log.txt file here so if someone can/will help me, please send a pm so I can mail the log.txt file

kind regards
Stan
the Netherlands

bump it

Just wondering why my BLM is running a little high (130-135). I've just replaced the exhaust manifolds (eliminating exhaust leaks), the plugs, wires, and O2 sensor. My A/F ratio should be about as good as it gets on a 167000 mile engine.

What would cause the BLM to run high?

Question... Would vacuum leaks and loss of compression cause the BLM to go up or down? I'm thinking down, because: a vacuum leak or compression loss will lower manifold vacuum, which will look like an increase in the engine load. The ECM would then increase the fuel supply until it corrects by lowering the BLM count. Is this right?

Also, is there a table somewhere showing what the MAP sensor should be reading at idle at various altitudes?

[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 04-08-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: Just wondering why my BLM is running a little high (130-135). I've just replaced the exhaust manifolds (eliminating exhaust leaks), the plugs, wires, and O2 sensor. My A/F ratio should be about as good as it gets on a 167000 mile engine. What would cause the BLM to run high? Question... Would vacuum leaks and loss of compression cause the BLM to go up or down? I'm thinking down, because: a vacuum leak or compression loss will lower manifold vacuum, which will look like an increase in the engine load. The ECM would then increase the fuel supply until it corrects by lowering the BLM count. Is this right? Also, is there a table somewhere showing what the MAP sensor should be reading at idle at various altitudes?

The V6 limits are 120 and 150 so being at 130-135 isn't that unusual. It's adding a bit of fuel but it's in range so you can't automatically assume something is wrong. A drop in fuel pressure, a drop in fuel delivery from the injectors, an offset O2, lots of things. What important is if it's changed. My 86 SE would run in the low 130's while my LB6 would run 125-128.

Do you have any earlier scans that show the BLM tending to be closer to 128?

quote Originally posted by TK: The V6 limits are 120 and 150 so being at 130-135 isn't that unusual. It's adding a bit of fuel but it's in range so you can't automatically assume something is wrong. A drop in fuel pressure, a drop in fuel delivery from the injectors, an offset O2, lots of things. What important is if it's changed. My 86 SE would run in the low 130's while my LB6 would run 125-128. Do you have any earlier scans that show the BLM tending to be closer to 128?

I don't have access to my home computer right now. I'll have to look when I get home, but I don't know how much faith I'd put in those numbers. I've had an exhaust leak causing a rich condition for quite a while, until it was recently repaired. So, I'm sure the numbers have changed from my last scan. I'm almost starting from scratch. What I had was definitely not right. I made several repairs, and now I'm trying to determine if everything's right.

Thanks for the info.

TTT

Wow this post goes back a long ways. "Memories, nothing more than memories" (very few probably remember that song...)

I talked to 3800Superfast from up in this post a little over a year ago. He dropped out of site a couple years ago and never came back. He is another one of the sad PFF members that was around a long time and then his life went into the dummper due to health, marraige issues, and family deaths.
Wished him the best. Need to give him a call again. He was still running his car detail biz last we talked.

Just received my aldl cable and have been running some initial tests that last roughly 40 min to and from work. 2m4 1984
Wondering if there was anyone that was still skilled at reading the logs?

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Wow this post goes back a long ways. "Memories, nothing more than memories" (very few probably remember that song...)

I remember that song too . . . and you're dating both of us. That was a long time ago.

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Jim Martin
White '86 GT
California

quote Originally posted by 1ofakind: Just received my aldl cable and have been running some initial tests that last roughly 40 min to and from work. 2m4 1984 Wondering if there was anyone that was still skilled at reading the logs?

Not unless you post them somewhere or send them to someone.

bump for good info

Also where would one Buy a data cable to hook up to the PC?

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88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252
Time to start Working TONY!
There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!

[This message has been edited by Kento (edited 05-08-2011).]