quote Originally posted by engine man: Thanks for the pep talk and i will take all of you up on picking your brain I noticed that you spread the cradle rails can i get away with out doing that. I have a 86 GT it has a bad engine so instead of just puting a stock engine in then doing a swap latter i fell just suck it up and do the swap now.

There is no need to spread the crossmembers, but adapter plate style, starter position and type of tranny will be constrains for engine placement and elevation.

since i played around so much with my last 4.3 from my 98 blazer, i feel confident enough in doing something like this to the next fiero i get. but i will leave it be a stick. the wiring is cake to me since i spent so much time with my blazers harness and wiring diagrams. and now that i am doing the wiring for my LX9 fiero.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp at the motor

I know it will be an automatic due to thats what is in the car not sure if i want to update to the 4T60 and I plan on using the street dreams kit should i buy the rotated or streight up addaptor. This is the cam I want to put in Part Number: CRN-1439731
Cam Style: Hydraulic roller tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,500-6,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 222
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 230
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 222 int./230 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 284
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 292
Advertised Duration: 284 int./292 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.509 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.528 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.509 int./0.528 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Intake Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Exhaust Valve Lash: 0.000 in.
Computer Controlled Compatible: No
Grind Number: HR-222/339-2S-12
Quantity: Sold individually.

Camshaft, Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 284/292, Lift .509/.528, Chevy, 90 Degree V6, Each
all so if I am corect the 96 and up vortec heads flow 210 CFM on the intake and 145 cfm ex that is if the ports are the same as a 350 vortec and i am told they are

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 10-17-2008).]

Well I lucked out and was able to get some more work done today.

Pulled the motor/tranny from the cradle and put the exhaust and cradle outside (need the room in the shop. Then the tranny came off the engine and was placed on an engine stand for the rework.





Here is the new torque converter:


The tranny will get new axle seals, both pan gaskets, a new filter, and TCC solenoid.

I got the new filter, lower pan gasket and passenger axle seal replaced. I had to order the side pan gaskets and the driver side axle seal. New plug wires, Cap/Rotor and header wrap were also ordered.

I checked the TCC solenoid and it cycles with battery power (removed it an jumped it with a battery), but stopped locking up the converter in the car. I suspect the 3rd gear pressure switch, but decided to purchase the 440-4T/4T60 shop manual to better understand and be able to troubleshoot this issue. The side pan has about 1/32" clearance to the driver side cradle rail, so the side pan can only be removed once the cradle is dropped out of the way. I want to make sure the TCC issue is fixed before putting everthing back in the car.

The only other planned change, is to convert to a heated O2 sensor. The 4.3 came with one, but I put a non-heated version in originally. There is quite a bit of distance from the front bank to the O2, so a heated O2 is probably going to be more consistant.

Pretty much in a holding pattern right now while I wait on parts to show up.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-20-2008).]

Well, I learned a few things with the tranny manual. In 85 and 86, there were some (not all) versions of the 440-T4 that had a N.O. 3rd gear pressure switch wired in series with the TCC circuit. I assumed this was the case since applying 12v to the TCC circuit would only lockup the converter in 3rd and 4th gear with my tranny. None of the trannys from 87 on had the 3rd gear switch included in the TCC circuit.

Here are the TCC circuits for the 440-T4 available in 1986



I removed my 3rd gear pressure switch and applied air pressure to check it only to have the air come out the spade terminals... There is no continuity between the two spades with or without pressure... bad pressure switch. I think I have a source for one, but need to call and confirm, but they are closed on the weekends. The waiting on parts continues...

I finally got the parts and finished putting everything back together and was able to take it for a spin this evening.

Work done during this maintenance period:
Upgraded to a tighter torque converter (seems to feel better - spends more time at 2500 vs. 3000 rpm in town)
Fixed TCC
Fixed assorted tranny leaks
New Cap, Rotor and Red plug wires
Wrapped the manifolds to keep engine bay temps down
Installed heated O2.
Added heat shield on rear down tube. It ran within 1" of the CV boot and the CV boot probably wouldn't like the heat too long.

Here are some pics:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-03-2008).]

those transtar/axiom converters have problems with burning the converter clutch , hope they sent you a good one , the tranny dosent respond well to conv. failures
full rebuild is usually required

So far the converter has been doing just fine. Probably next summer, I will pull the tranny and install a lower mileage one and try to get one with the more highway friendly gears vs. the 3.31 that I currently have.

The lower stall is much nicer, but if I could get one another 400 to 500 lower that would be even better.

Been driving the car pretty much non-stop for commuter duty and getting 25mpg like clock work.

Took the 4.3 on its first long trip (254 mile round trip). Filled up both times at the same station, same pump and parked the same direction. All highway/interstate and averaging 75 mph the 4.3 pulled down 30.6mpg... not too bad.

quote fieroguru:Took the 4.3 on its first long trip (254 mile round trip). Filled up both times at the same station, same pump and parked the same direction. All highway/interstate and averaging 75 mph the 4.3 pulled down 30.6mpg... not too bad.

Welcome to the 30+mpg w/ a swap owners. My 3800 w/ 4T60 revs 2K at 80 mph, gets 34+mpg on long trips.

See https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/052684.html for details.

quote Originally posted by 30+mpg: My 3800 w/ 4T60 revs 2K at 80 mph, gets 34+mpg on long trips.

That's why I want to swap out my 3.33 4T60 for one with a numerically lower final drive. At 80 I am currently in the 2700 rpm range

I average 26mpg, 3000rpm @ 70mph. Got a little over 29 once last summer over a 200 mile trip. I can also get 3.5mpg at the track. I believe you are one of three 4.3 Fieros that I'm aware of counting myself.
I had 3.65 gears with these numbers.
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1985 Fiero (GT body), 4.3 vortec heads, Holley 4bbl inj, 85 4speed w/4.10 gears

[This message has been edited by 262GT (edited 02-02-2009).]

I have an extra vortec plenum and a few other bits for it... PM me if you are interested

Matt

You know that oil fill extension can come off right? It has the same end as the cap so the cap will go onto the valve cover. But it does make it easier to add oil to the engine without spillage. I took mine off and put it in my maintenance kit.

quote Originally posted by 262GT: I average 26mpg, 3000rpm @ 70mph. Got a little over 29 once last summer over a 200 mile trip. I can also get 3.5mpg at the track. I believe you are one of three 4.3 Fieros that I'm aware of counting myself. I had 3.65 gears with these numbers.

Please pm me some pics of your setup!

As for other 4.3 swaps here on the forum:
Russ544 - had one for several years and was selling the drivetrain a while back
Vortecfiero has a 4.3 Turbo
Michelhaugh has a 4.3 diesel
Egor is nearing completion on his 4.3
cowan1984 was working on one some time ago

Bump for the Construction Zone!

Took the 4.3 Fiero down to the Fiero Factory Swap Meet for it longest road trip so far.

The drive down averaged 32.4 mpg - 100% highway and running about 70mph most of the way.
The tank that included about 80 miles of driving while in toney/huntville averaged 29.7.
The last 117 miles averaged 30.7 and was running 75ish most of the way.

All told the trip was 685 miles (Lawranceburg to Huntsville and back to Stanford) with a trip average of 30.8mpg... not too bad for the gas hog 4.3.

Do you ever plan to go to a drag strip just to see how fast it will run or just like playing on the street

quote Originally posted by engine man: Do you ever plan to go to a drag strip just to see how fast it will run or just like playing on the street

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The ground rules: The engine will remain stock and retain the CPI - no performance upgrades This car is being built for a spirited daily driver.

Probably not... the nearest strip is 2 hrs away. I didn't build it for performance and really do not care what it puts down in the 1/4 mile... It is a fun daily driver that gets better gas mileage than my wife's 99 Maxima (city and highway) and I enjoy driving it for my commute to work year round (which is more than I can say for the 2.8).

I was just wondering what a bone stock 4.3 would do

Bump!

Not much new in 4.3 land, just racking up miles doing the daily commute. It has been on the road over a year now and has about 15K on the swap.

Last week I finally swapped out the whiney CPI fuel pump. It was noisy and started to momentarily cut out after long continued operation. First it took 3 hrs and then slowly progressed to be 45 minute or less. Adding cool fuel would buy more time, but its days were numbered. The new 92 350 TPI fuel pump is whisper quiet and working very well.

On the way home tonight I heard a slapping sound... the serpentine belt decided to shread about 3 miles from home. It was a used belt when I mocked up the 4.3 so who knows how old it was. In the morning I will pick up a new 88 Fiero 2.5 serpentine belt so it should only miss 1 day of commuter duty.

quote Originally posted by 454stroker: those transtar/axiom converters have problems with burning the converter clutch , hope they sent you a good one , the tranny dosent respond well to conv. failures full rebuild is usually required

Hmmmm... the lock up is starting to flake out and not stay locked up when it should. The tranny is too old/worn to swap in yet another converter, so I will just drive it till the tranny dies and take it from there. If I have my F40 swap figured out before then, I might just swap in the F40, otherwise the Isuzu will probably get a go to see how it does... I am getting tired of the auto.

I have finally aquired what I need to progress to phase 2 of the 4.3 swap.

Today I picked up a near complete 99 Vortec 4.3 from a 5 speed S10 for $175 with harness and ecm. It rattles once warmed up, so I suspect some out of spec bearings and such.




The spirited daily driver theme will continue, but I will try to do a couple of upgrades along the way to get to maybe 225 to 250 crank hp, but need to keep total cost at a minimum.

Phase 2 will be ODB2/MAF with vortec heads modified to accept the CPI lower intake, modified vortec crab dist to allow the CPI upper plenum flip, simple set of fiero style log headers, and a manual transmission. It will probably get my prototype tubular 88 cradle and the F40 I have been working on for my SBC/F40 swap.

Why not just keep the engine with the 96+ intake? It looks like crap and I want to retain the look of the CPI intake.
The 92-95 CPI intake has a similar look to the 2.8 fiero and really looks the part when flipped around fiero style:


The stock manifolds are heavy and I would like to have an over the tranny exhaust (rear dump) so to continue the "similar to 2.8" trend, I will make a simple log type manifold that will be a cross between the KFG 2.8 header and how WATWUZATI was doing his N* manifold with a tapered main tube. Probably start with 1 3/4" at the ports and end of the main tube and let the main tube enlarge to 2 1/2" at the end.



The plastic vortec dist will be cut and shortened to minimize the spacer thickness to 1/4" between the upper plenum and lower intake.

The last trick will be the individual injectors and a fuel distribution block that will be inside the CPI intake. There is an individual injector conversion kit for the 96+ engines... just need to track on down on the cheap (they are about $250 normally).
1st thing will be modifying the dist and flipping the intake on my spare CPI intake setup... probably will not get back to this for several more days.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-01-2010).]

Why are you changing to MAF from Speed Density?
I had a 2001 4.3 Sonoma, with MAF, and it always felt like it was "hobbled" for some reason.

Just a thought...
Have you ever considered doing a 3/4 TPI?
Section a piece from the middle, like they did with the 350 block?

Of course, what you're doing will probably make more sense, with less hassle.

This is one of my favorite swaps on the forum. I'll be watching, regardless.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Why are you changing to MAF from Speed Density? I had a 2001 4.3 Sonoma, with MAF, and it always felt like it was "hobbled" for some reason. Just a thought... Have you ever considered doing a 3/4 TPI? Section a piece from the middle, like they did with the 350 block? Of course, what you're doing will probably make more sense, with less hassle. This is one of my favorite swaps on the forum. I'll be watching, regardless.

Thanks for the compliment Raydar!

Speed Density is OK when you have a stock engine with an OEM tune, start adding upgrades and it gets off quickly and you will spend quite a bit of time tuning it back in and and tweaking it back in to maximize drivability... especially with a manual tranny and its large MAP swings. I have ran speed desity on my SBC and 4.3 for years and want to upgrade to the newer MAF setup.

The mini TPI would be cool, just not in the cards since I can not weld aluminum at the house and do not want to spend several hundred having someone else do it. Plus, the TPI was designed around the 305 with runners signifianctly smaller than the CPI's 1.75" runners (which is larger than most TPI upgrades). Using the CPI is the simplier of the two, the mods needed to make it fit are quite simple... some what time consuming, but not complicated or difficult.

Performed distributor height reduction surgery today.

Patient on the table prior to the modification - notice the 2 sets of indexed surfaces between the intake flange and the top of the distibutor. Only one is needed to properly locate the disctributor, so the other one will be removed:


After I used a saws all to remove the extra length and used sand paper on a flat surface to smooth out the cuts.


Here are the two halves with a 3/4" OD sleeve. I slit it down its length because the ID of the distributor shaft is less than 3/4". The sleeve will help strengthen the JB weld used to glue the two flange ends together.


All glued back together and resting on the recovery table:


Then mocked up with the intake. I used some 1 3/4" exhaust tubing (with slits) to align the ports from the upper and lower intake parts and then used some 3/8" aluminum plate for the mock up spacer. The dist and wires will now fit under the intake with a 3/8" spacer. I might be able to get it down to 1/4" with some slight clearancing to the upper intake.





Now for those just after this "look", the 1995 CPI came facotry with this vortec crab dist (1 year only), so using a 95 CPI engine/harness/ecm would allow this setup to be ready to install once the 3/8" spacer/adapter plate is fabricated.

I am wanting to use the 96+ vortec heads, sequential fuel injection and the 96+ ecm with MAF.... so I have alot more work ahead of me.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-09-2010).]

I have a marine fuel injection brand new that would look nice on top that engine

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-09-2010).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: I have a marine fuel injection brand new that would look nice on top that engine

Yes, but that is not the look I am going for. The CPI intake is staying.

This thread gets better and better! Keep it up...-Jason

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Speed Density is OK when you have a stock engine with an OEM tune, start adding upgrades and it gets off quickly and you will spend quite a bit of time tuning it back in and and tweaking it back in to maximize drivability... especially with a manual tranny and its large MAP swings. I have ran speed desity on my SBC and 4.3 for years and want to upgrade to the newer MAF setup. The mini TPI would be cool, just not in the cards since I can not weld aluminum at the house and do not want to spend several hundred having someone else do it. Plus, the TPI was designed around the 305 with runners signifianctly smaller than the CPI's 1.75" runners (which is larger than most TPI upgrades). Using the CPI is the simplier of the two, the mods needed to make it fit are quite simple... some what time consuming, but not complicated or difficult.

Cool!
Good luck with the project. I always enjoy watcing your work.

Didn't get much done today.. there was a small fire at work last night so I was up most of the night and took a nap this afternoon.

Did get the 4.3 down to the long block so I can clean it up some and flip it over and check out the bearings and do a compression check. I am hoping a crank polish, new bearings and new oil pump will give this engine a new lease on life.


The flywheel on this thing is HEAVY. 168 tooth ring gear and not back cut at all to reduce the weight... tips the scales at 44 lbs.

Got the engine flipped over and I am going to check the rod and main bearings this week.


Then I took the intake off my spare 94 CPI engine so I could start making the fixture to drill the 96+ vortec heads to accept the earlier intake bolt pattern. Using 3/8x2 bar stock and I transferred the bolt locations for the intake pattern. I still need to make the side plates that will pickup the 3 accessory bolt hole locations on both sides of the head. Then some 3/8" nuts will be welded to the topside of the plate for use as a dril and tap guide when this bracket is bolted to the 96+ Vortec heads.

Finished up the drill/tap fixture tonight... maybe I will get the heads drilled/tapped this week!

Snowed in, so I spent a few hours drilling the 96+ heads for the pre-96 intake pattern.




I still have alot of cleaning to do on the engine, but waiting on cleaning supplies.

I might start performing the modifications to the lower 92-95 CPI intake (relocate the heater hose outlet and modify the EGR path (heads to not have the head egr port) to accept the EGR tube off the exhaust manifold. With the upper intake flipped, the EGR outlet port (the one that used to go right behind the throttle body) is exposed - so I plan to put the fitting for the egr tube coming off the exhaust there. This will have the ERG flowing backwards, so I will need to plug the portion that seals to the head and drill the EGR pathway cast into the lower manifold so a new EGR tube internal to the upper/lower intakes can be installed.

I got tired of messing with a filthy intake, so today sprayed it with some oven cleaner, let it sit for 30 minutes and then washed it off... worked great, but probably not good for shiney finishes.

The 3/8" adapter plate needs to be 12 3/4 x 10 3/4... need to check ebay for a low cost source for this material.

Then it was on to some slight modifications on the lower intake. I am finicky about wires and hoses on the visible side of the engine, so I wanted to move the temp sensor under the EGR valve and the heater hose to the other side of the intake. Just some drilling, tapping and pluging the original holes.



The EGR port in the lower intake was also tapped, but it is very tight to the upper intake. I will probably let the adapter plate cover this EGR hole and then drill/tap a smaller diameter hole offset in the existing hole so the fitting can clear the upper intake.


I am planning to run the accessory drive I have been building for my SBC on this 4.3 (so I can swap in a SBC at a later date if I wanted), so the CPI intake was placed on the SBC mockup engine to see the clearances with the accessorys.



There is just enough room for the temp sender connector to clear the offset housing and the temp sender is hidden as much as possible by the egr. I plan to retain the stock 4.3 thermostat that mounts vertically on the face of the intake, and will need to make a custom outlet housing to clear the water pump pulley and exit above the tensioner.

I prefer to run hoses in a common path whenever possible to help simplify the appearance and this side of the engine will have the coolant hose, heater hose, EGR tube (runs to the exhaust collector) and manifold vacuum. All of these hoses will run along the end of the valve cover and over the belt drive tensioner. Something similar to this:

More info on your head porting and your new cam? Since you're staying with MAF, there's no good reason not to. Or I can give you the details of the custom ground Comp hyd. roller that's doing so well in my '06 Sierra 4.3. I ported those heads, but didn't change the valve sizes. I did go with better valves, however. But this being a Fiero cruising at 1900 rpm rather than a pickup cruising at 1600 rpm, you might want a bit more duration and a wider lobe sep. then you can mill the heads without having to run premium unleaded, and still have good mpg and good HP. How about a 3326/3314-114, with a set of 98111 springs from CP? That'll see 30 mpg and 280 crank HP, ( intake flow and exhaust system permitting ) I'll bet the cost of the cam on it.

My goal is something in the 225 to 250 range, but I liked the 32mpg it was getting when the TCC worked. I am planning to keep the cam stock and play around with some 1.6 or 1.7 roller rockers to increase valve lift to improve flow, while keeping the duration/power band mostly stock (do not know if those will fit within the stock valve covers).

I am not planning to do much more than gasket matching between the intake and heads with the vast majority of work being done on the intake.