Nice thread Alex!
Glad to see great pics and all the steps in one thread - I get lots of PM's about my 4T60 swap.
Problem is my memory is good, but short!

Fiero2m8

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86 LT1-4T60 Nitrous Roadster~84 Indy Northstar-Porsche Hatchback

quote Originally posted by Fiero2m8: Nice thread Alex! Glad to see great pics and all the steps in one thread - I get lots of PM's about my 4T60 swap. Problem is my memory is good, but short! Fiero2m8

Thanks. While looking at info I went over dozens of 4t60 threads. I would say that 90% of those were asking about which axles to use and 5-8% about governor. And very few pictures. That's why I tried to show as much as I can, even the trivial.

AAAAAAA++++++ for you and this write-up. Finally an install with some good pics! Now I feel comfortable doing this to mine!

You mentioned that you connected the vacuum to one of the ported vacuum lines under the throttle body, those only see vacuum under throttle. Is that correct?

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: You mentioned that you connected the vacuum to one of the ported vacuum lines under the throttle body, those only see vacuum under throttle. Is that correct? JazzMan

That is correct. I just went and measured it and with TB closed there is no vacuum. When you open the TB it starts to see it. I think that is a problem, yes? If so I need to change my vacuum source.

Lesson to be learned. Never spin the wheels under power while the Fiero is off the ground. The angle is so steep it will rip the boots in no time and thats exactly what we see here.

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87GT - with 3800SC Series III engine, 4T65eHD
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Lesson to be learned. Never spin the wheels under power while the Fiero is off the ground. The angle is so steep it will rip the boots in no time and thats exactly what we see here.

I do not think the angle of the outer CV in the pics above is any worse than what happens while turning the wheels (to go around a corner) on the front wheel drive application. My guess is it was just a bad boot.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I do not think the angle of the outer CV in the pics above is any worse than what happens while turning the wheels (to go around a corner) on the front wheel drive application. My guess is it was just a bad boot.

I agree. I took the previous transmission to near 60mph the same way with no problems.

On another topic, does anyone knows if my vacuum connection is wrong for sure? I think so. Tks

The vacuum modulator is to be connected to MANIFOLD vacuum. Any M.V. port on the TB/TBI, or manifold itself, will work. The trans will not shift properly unless connected to the correct port type and Ideally it should not be shared with anything else.

quote Originally posted by theogre: The vacuum modulator is to be connected to MANIFOLD vacuum. Any M.V. port on the TB/TBI, or manifold itself, will work. The trans will not shift properly unless connected to the correct port type and Ideally it should not be shared with anything else.

Thanks!

I found some inspiration today and cleaned the mess and took out the axle. Tomorrow morning I will take it to NAPA for replacement. Also I ordered the adjustable dog bone so soon car should be on the ground.

quote Originally posted by theogre: The vacuum modulator is to be connected to MANIFOLD vacuum. Any M.V. port on the TB/TBI, or manifold itself, will work. The trans will not shift properly unless connected to the correct port type and Ideally it should not be shared with anything else.

What symptoms will you encounter if the vacuum is not properly connected? You state won't shift properly?? to early, to late, to hard , to soft?
I just got my 4t60 on the road and after rpm drops from shifting i encounter a shutter almost like it is being lugged I can manually downshift and raise rpm and all is fine. I have unplugged the tcc circuit and no difference. I have tryed adjusting TV cable the spring is to hard to auto adjust almost need to take cable out of the mount and use a socket and clamp to release it then there is no way to rotate throttle to adjust but manually setiing in i can improve it some and/or make it alot worse. I have the modulator "t"ed into the port the cruise control was in (went digital)so the only thing on that circuit is the evap can and that will have a closed circuit.
Mike
Mike

If its connected wrong... what happens depends on the port and when it opens. Different ports on the TB/TBI/Carb can open at different settings of the throttle. Usually its like you've not bothered to hook it up at all. Connect a vac gauge to whatever port and if you don't have around 20 inches at idle, it's probably the wrong port.

If you have one... use a port right on the manifold. If you don't have one of those... T off the MAP sensor line. That line is usually pretty short and has no valves so is unlikely to give the trans a fit. (Valves could leak or be open intentionally causing the modulator to get a false reading.) If you're doing this on an engine using MAF then you'll have to work out what ports have manifold vac or add one as needed.

Many modulators are adjustable. Most are set correctly right out of the box or very close too it. If you adjust them, make reference marks on the screwdriver and the modulator. Adjust it only in very small amounts. A fraction of a turn can make a large difference in performance. I prefer to use a tool bent 90*, like an allen key, because it makes fine adjustment much easier.

WARNING: Late/no upshift can also be a dirty/stuck governor. If you are running a used transmission, start by VERY CAREFULLY taking that apart and cleaning it. I think there's a way to add a screen to it on a TH125/3T40 and maybe the 4T60 but I can't find it now. (It's in a TSB if anyone has alldata etc...)

Well, I replaced the axle today and finally put tha car on the ground. Also changed my vacuum source to a manifold port. Maybe today I'll move it with the new setup! Still I have my old issues with the engine. After it gets hot it kind of chokes and missfires between 2200rpm and 3500rpm and then if it dies it cranks super slow or doesn't crank at all. That starter was fine before. I need to go over everything and check all sensors and timing again. I don't think the bigger cam and intake will make that big of a difference on the current tune to cause that.

Something I forgot to mention is that this sensor (park/backup) needs to be from the 4t60. As you can see the TH125 doesn't fit well.

Does the one for the 4t60 use the same connector?
Thanks Gary

quote Originally posted by GKDINC: Does the one for the 4t60 use the same connector? Thanks Gary

Yes it does for the same type. Some 4T60s have a different type as shown below that is very obvious won't fit.

Well thanks a LOT to BrewCheese for selling me the right taller cap that I needed to finish the conversion. Below you can see the difference between the stock cap and the taller unit. You just take off that pin and the sensor comes out. The same way you install it in easily on the taller cap. You can see that both drive gears (bottom one) are the same. So I just transferred the TH125 unit to the 4t60 with no problems. Now if I could find the problems with my engine so I can drive this thing... So I guess this is the end of this thread. Hope some find it usefull in their conversion

I cant believe you got that cap already! Glad to see everything worked out for you.

Jason

Anyone that has a done the 4t60 swap I am curious about the TV cable. Were modifications needed? I found mine to be too long (shortened by a good 1/2") and am curios if it is just old and stretched or if there is something mechanically different.
Mike

Finally was able to drive the car and took it for a spin. Wow! This thing runs near 1000 rpm at 40mph! Definitley will save fuel. Now of course it needs adjustment. I can barely feel the shifts and when slowly accelerating it gets to near 3500 rpm to shift to 2nd and does it very soft. In what direction do I need to adjust the vacuum regulator to get harder shifts? And a little earlier? I played with it before installing it and one direction makes the vacuum regulator plunger softer to push. The other direction makes it harder to push. Do I need to make it softer or harder to push to get quicker shifts? Help appreciated. Thanks.

You probably need to get it to a trans shop.

It sounds like you really have two separate problems. Late/no up shift along with Soft shifting.

1. You put in the TH125C governor. That could be part of your problem. Late/no upshift is often a governor problem.
1a. It would be best to find the correct 4T60 part even tho they look pretty similar. Notice at the bottom the O ring is in a different location, that could mean you've got an internal leak or have blocked a port.
1b. Even if the TH125c governor is a compatible part, it may not be calibrated correctly for that trans.
1c. If it's calibrated fairly close, installing your other governor may resolve the late shifting. It's about the only test you could do yourself. The ECM will get pissed off about this but it might help rule out the governor.
2. You messed with the vacuum modulator? It was set fairly close out of the box but now you don't even have a reliable starting point. I'm pretty sure you need gauges to set the pressures properly. There is a procedure for this but I don't have it handy.
3. Have you set the TV cable yet? You could try running that adjustment again. I don't think it will help but it's easy enough to rule it out.

Don't keep driving it around until you sort this out. Running like that can kill it really quick.

From what I have read the vacuum modulator only controls harshness of shifts, the tv cable and governor controls when it shifts. Do you have the torque convertor electrical connector plugged in? If so unplug it and take it for a test drive. Might be something with that system kicking in too soon.

Im curious as to what you did about the shifter. Do all the notches line up with the 4sd? Did you have to cut another spot for the extra gear?

-Joseph

My question also, what did you use for a shifter?

I used the Fiero Addiction 4 Speed Auto Shift Cable Bracket http://www.fieroaddiction.c..._info&products_id=14 and required no modifications. When manually selecting a gear p is p, n is n, d is d, 2 is 3, 1 is 2 and there is a blank spot below that is 1. So you can hit all the gears.
Mike

quote Originally posted by theogre: You probably need to get it to a trans shop. It sounds like you really have two separate problems. Late/no up shift along with Soft shifting. 1. You put in the TH125C governor. That could be part of your problem. Late/no upshift is often a governor problem. 1a. It would be best to find the correct 4T60 part even tho they look pretty similar. Notice at the bottom the O ring is in a different location, that could mean you've got an internal leak or have blocked a port. 1b. Even if the TH125c governor is a compatible part, it may not be calibrated correctly for that trans. 1c. If it's calibrated fairly close, installing your other governor may resolve the late shifting. It's about the only test you could do yourself. The ECM will get pissed off about this but it might help rule out the governor. 2. You messed with the vacuum modulator? It was set fairly close out of the box but now you don't even have a reliable starting point. I'm pretty sure you need gauges to set the pressures properly. There is a procedure for this but I don't have it handy. 3. Have you set the TV cable yet? You could try running that adjustment again. I don't think it will help but it's easy enough to rule it out. Don't keep driving it around until you sort this out. Running like that can kill it really quick.

Thanks a lot. I'll check these things one by one. First I'll try to get the right governor or transfer the top gear to the 4t60 one. I heard it can be done. I noticed that the bottom shafts were different once I posted pics here as I was in a rush to get many things done and test it.
On the TV cable, what causes earlier shift, it being pulled too far (a lot of clicks or slots visible) or not too far (few clicks or very few slots visible on TB side)? Tks

On the shifter I used Fieroaddiction bracket do it is like mswenson289 said

Like I said... there are two separate problems.

After looking at the picture again... The seal is in the right place but the groove moved. Even if the seal is functioning correctly, that groove position almost certainly means the governor is probably causing your late/no up shift. The groove isn't lined up with the port and no oil getting thru the valve in the governor. Same effect as a governor blocked from dirt.

As I remember... The modulator controls main line pressure, IE shift firmness. You need gauges to set it properly and then you can tweak it from there. I don't have the info for the gauge, or what pressure and conditions, to set the modulator. Very small changes to the modulator will affect the pressure. Setting it should only take a few minutes with the right tools. If it's set wrong, you can and probably will tear up the transmission.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Like I said... there are two separate problems. After looking at the picture again... The seal is in the right place but the groove moved. Even if the seal is functioning correctly, that groove position almost certainly means the governor is probably causing your late/no up shift. The groove isn't lined up with the port and no oil getting thru the valve in the governor. Same effect as a governor blocked from dirt. As I remember... The modulator controls main line pressure, IE shift firmness. You need gauges to set it properly and then you can tweak it from there. I don't have the info for the gauge, or what pressure and conditions, to set the modulator. Very small changes to the modulator will affect the pressure. Setting it should only take a few minutes with the right tools. If it's set wrong, you can and probably will tear up the transmission.

Thanks again. The modulator is a $13 part so I can just get another one. I think right now the governor makes more sense. I can swap back the digital one and run the car without the VSS conected and see how it works. If it feels different then I know what's next.

Triple success. Finally solved my alternator and starter problems. Alternator low voltage was caused by the powder coated bracket. Removed and grinded contact areas and got my 14V back. Starter was bad and didn't work (slow) when hot. Spare one installed got it fixed. But best was that I was able to very easily modify the 4t60 governor. I started tapping with a hammer on the top of the shaft (see pics below) and the metal gear looking thing (sorry, don't know how to call it) came out without fuss. Didn't even have to hammer it too hard. Then on the TH125 governor I just pried with my hands the green gear and it came out quickly. It fits perfect in the 4t60 governor. Installed all back but finished too late for a test drive. That will have to wait for tomorrow. I'll post results. I also included a small video of the car idling.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: ...I also included a small video of the car idling.

I like it!
It has that same "thump" at idle that mine does.
Yours sounds a lot better than mine, though. Mine has a bit of a mechanical "thrash" to it.
Always has, ever since I unbolted it from the pallet and first installed it.

Good luck with the test drive and the tuning.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-28-2008).]

Took it for a spin today. The late shifting feeling is that it is missing 2nd gear. In D it goes from 1st to 3rd. If I shift manually it also doesn't engage 2nd. It just revs. Sometimes I feel like it starts to engage with slippage but I'm not sure. I didn't want to push it too much. Where should I look? Could it be related to the regulator? Please tell me yes.

Great thread! Could you give a cost listing of the parts? Were there any other trannys that you considered, if so why did you choos this one over them?

Thanks.

Correct me if im wrong but Ive always been under the assumption that the TV cable and the vaccum modulator controlled the shifting time and harshness and the governor controlled the max speed and the vss signal.

Ive always wondered what the purpose of the grooves where on the governors and if it made a difference or not. If anything your Fiero governor should give you less problems because thats calibrated for the Fieros weight, the 4t60 governor is surely calibrated for a heavier car.

Are you sure when you put it in "2nd" (which on the shifter bezel is 3rd) that your not just shifting it into Neutral?

Jason

[This message has been edited by BrewCheese (edited 05-30-2008).]

BrewCheese: Yes it was in 2nd for sure. Like I said I manually shifted it and 2nd is not working I suspect a sticky 1st-2nd valve. These seem to be a problem on 4t60s (see link below). Thing is this trany is newly remanufactured never used. Maybe because it sat for 1.5 yrs it went bad? Or maybe my luck with my swaps where everything always go more wrong than right.

http://transmichigan.com/in...7_57&products_id=252

White Spyder; Tally of parts and approx cost;

trany - $100-$1000 depending where you get it and if used or not (mine was about $450 with s/h including the converter )
brackets - $140 for trans and shifter from Fieroaddiction.com
axles - $136 for both at Napa (after returning core)
adjustable regulator - $14 at Autozone
cooler lines & 5 pin connector, - +/-$15 at junk yard
taller governor cap - $20 from forum member (believe me, worth every penny for not having to go to yard on our hot days now!! Plus I couldn't find one)
ATF fluid - +/-$20
Your labor - I charge myself $50/hr

I think I have all there.

Before you assume it is the trans...

As I remember this trans has internal detents for the shifter lever. I haven't worked on one in a while. Assuming it does... (you can check... disconnect the linkage and move the lever on the trans. It should want to stop at various positions. If it doesn't then there are no detents and this won't work.)

Disconnect the shifter from the lever on the trans. (Leave lever on trans.)
Hold the brake solid.
Have someone move the lever on the trans to the drive position.
Drive the car.

This is to eliminate that maybe the shifter is off for some reason. It could be the trans but you still want to run this test just to be sure that the shifter isn't holding the thing off position even a little bit.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Took it for a spin today. The late shifting feeling is that it is missing 2nd gear. In D it goes from 1st to 3rd. If I shift manually it also doesn't engage 2nd. It just revs. Sometimes I feel like it starts to engage with slippage but I'm not sure. I didn't want to push it too much. Where should I look? Could it be related to the regulator? Please tell me yes.

I'm having this EXACT SAME problem with a TH125 right now. Same thing!

When you put yours in "2", does it run through first gear and then just kinda wind out and not shift? If you move the shifter to "3" while doing this, does it then upshift to third?

Man, you EXACTLY described my symptoms.
At first I thought my TV cable was adjusted too far out because it seemed like it wound out too much before shifting.
Then I discovered that sometimes it would kind of feel like it had the tiniest little bit of trying to pull in second while it was doing the taching-out/slipping thing.
Then I discovered that when I pull the shifter into "2" at 45mph I don't get a downshift like the FSM says I should, it just kinda freewheels.

By the way, if you think a 1-3 upshift sucks in your car, you should feel it in a 2.5 car. 20 second 0-60 anyone?

If you figure this one out, PLEASE PM me. I am about at the limit of my patience and am gathering parts to 4T60 my 2.5 (already have the trans, looking for the governor parts)

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula:

A dumb question, but doesn't this signal the ECU what gear selection the trans is in, or is it only reverse and park?
I know that we had to adjust the one on my T125 to get it to shift properly and to get it to shift out of park properly when I did my 3.4 swap.

(Yes I know the unit in the photo is the wrong one for the 4T60)

quote Originally posted by randye: A dumb question, but doesn't this signal the ECU what gear selection the trans is in, or is it only reverse and park? I know that we had to adjust the one on my T125 to get it to shift properly and to get it to shift out of park properly when I did my 3.4 swap. (Yes I know the unit in the photo is the wrong one for the 4T60)

It does a few things, actually. Among them are triggering the reverse lights and preventing the starter solenoid from being energized when the trans is in a position other than park or neutral.

Unfortunately, if you are thinking this could be the problem for his trans, the ECM doesn't have any control over the 1-2-3 shifts of the trans in the 4T60.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: It does a few things, actually. Among them are triggering the reverse lights and preventing the starter solenoid from being energized when the trans is in a position other than park or neutral. Unfortunately, if you are thinking this could be the problem for his trans, the ECM doesn't have any control over the 1-2-3 shifts of the trans in the 4T60.

I know the ECU has no control over the 4T60 trans. Thanks....
Just re-read Alex's posts and I'm personally leaning toward a governor problem, but the "skip" from 1rst to 3rd gear is puzzling.

Hey Alex,

I took a look at my trans today to see if the grooves on the governor would make a difference and where that base slides in its completly smooth so I dont think theres any blocked ports and you shouldnt have any leaks.

Jason

Here is a nice write up of the swap that may be of help.

http://spacecoastfieros.com.../440-4T60/index.html