Lol... just meant that the 3 degrees doesn't matter.

It matters to whoever has to fab the spacer!

Meaning that you could machine a parallel spacer, rotate the starter ('cause the gear's round, ya know) and forget the 3 degrees.

Hey, now that's enough of this talk of using newfangled round-gear starters. :-)

My friend Russ Fiero was showing off in my SBC/F40 thread and thought you guys would find this interesting:

quote Originally posted by Russ Fiero: Just thought I would show you what I did with that aluminum you gave me. I got a 5.3 truck engine and reworked the oil pan for a starter. The adapter plate only needsto be 1/4 thick. Plus the LS block is about 1 1/2 shorter than the small block. Got some corvette stainless manifolds off e-bay.

The starter will be vulnerable when backing up near rocks or bicycles or other such. Plus this makes the car even more right-side-heavy. But if it works for Russ, it's his car. At least it is very low for good handling. I just think it'd be better to have it more to the left, even if it gets higher.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: The starter will be vulnerable when backing up near rocks or bicycles or other such. Plus this makes the car even more right-side-heavy. But if it works for Russ, it's his car. At least it is very low for good handling. I just think it'd be better to have it more to the left, even if it gets higher.

I really don't think the starter is big enough to matter much for L/R weight transfer problems. Mounted on the engine side, the furthest it extends, would be to the center of the car.

My F40 arrived the other day. I just need to find an LS4 to start looking at how I'm going to approach the issue. I am definitely looking forward to work on it.

Good to have one more joining the party, welcome!

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Good to have one more joining the party, welcome!

Thanks. I just wish it was easier to find a reasonably priced LS4 (or totalled impy/gxp/monte/lucerne with one). Not much on ebay these days, and nothing near me really, according to car-part.com. I might just see if I can't fix the gas lines on the v6, and drive it with that until I can get an LS4.

try www.lkqcorp.com, there you should be able to find a complete LS4 for $1400, and another $90 for the engine computer.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: try www.lkqcorp.com, there you should be able to find a complete LS4 for $1400, and another $90 for the engine computer.

They have one on ebay. It doesn't have any pictures or any real information. And they charge $400 to ship it to my house. I'd prefer to get the engine, trans, and electronics all for $1400. Better yet, I'd rather have a wrecked GXP, so I can pick it over for other parts I'd want to use in the swap.

But in the meantime, I did fix my gas leak yesterday, so I can drive her again. I'm not in a hurry to get the swap done, either. I want to get it done right. I'll also be doing some work on my house at the same time, so all my time and money aren't able to go into this swap yet.

Well guys I hate to say this but I've changed my mind on what I'm going to do with my ls4. I'm going to be building an LSR Fiero and will use it there along with the auto trans for now. I'll be holding onto my F40 and may stick it into my choptop at some point. There have been some great ideas on how to overcome the difficulties of the ls4/manual swap in this thread and I hope that continues. FIEROGURU's thread has also been an excellent thread on this and that's another good place to look for info on this swap. I will start a new thread about my new project once it gets further along. I'll be working on chassis prep first. We'll see just how fast I can push a fiero to go. Good luck with your builds making an ls4/manual trans swap a viable option.

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 02-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: Well guys I hate to say this but I've changed my mind on what I'm going to do with my ls4. I'm going to be building an LSR Fiero and will use it there along with the auto trans for now.

I hate to see you go the auto route, but fully understand. I am in tool buying mode right now, so minimal progress on my SBC/F40 front.

I hate it too, partly because the auto will eat another 9% of your engine's output, beyond what a manual would eat, and partly because a fiero is a sports car, and I feel an auto Fiero is as bad as an Auto in a real Countach. Even so, thanks for chiming in, and good luck with the other ideas.

Well the reason I've decided to stick with the auto is I'll have a much easier time getting a very tall final drive for the top speed LSR runs. I know this decision will cost me some power, but for now it's how I'm going to go. I will still be watching this thread and others for ideas on this though, and will chime in if I come up with something relevant, as I will eventually want to do this to my chopper. It's just been put on the backburner for now as I plan to build a car that I will run at Bonneville or other LSR events. I can't wait to see the first successful LS4/F40 swap, unfortunately it won't be mine.

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88blackchopv8

Now you're either not making any sense, or you just don't get it. Where to begin? tire sizes. You might get a 27" goodyear salt flats tire in there, but I'm personally looking to exceed 200 mph with 25.7" tires, such as a 275/40R17. Next, final drive ratios. Most LSR attempts are done with gearing over 2.125:1, as in, a ratio that is a bigger number than that. Even for quad-turbocharged big blocks with Top Fuel-flowing heads. The F40-MT2 gives 2.21:1, which is really good. Now, if I could build an LSX with MAST heads and twin T66s, to pull 7000 rpm, that'd give me a top speed of 242.4 mph. I may actually need the MU9 gearing for the F40, which would drop that to 213.6 mph. You aren't getting close to 200 using a 4T65E-HD with a 2.72 in third, nor with a 1.91:1 in fourth. Third would need too much rpm, fourth would take torque you can't make. I've always been obsessed with the salt flats racing, and I've studied it all I could. I'd like to see you enjoying your Fiero, so please spill your top secret plans for your engine, and for how many mph you want.

I'm still looking for a good donor. I would prefer to find a wrecked GXP, so I can pull all the other pieces I'm going to need/want as well, but the pickins are slim. As for mounting the starter, I think I will just mount it on the engine side, with a custom remote oil filter piece which also provides a boss for mounting the starter. Just gotta get all the pieces together so I can start working on it.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Now you're either not making any sense, or you just don't get it. Where to begin? tire sizes. You might get a 27" goodyear salt flats tire in there, but I'm personally looking to exceed 200 mph with 25.7" tires, such as a 275/40R17. Next, final drive ratios. Most LSR attempts are done with gearing over 2.125:1, as in, a ratio that is a bigger number than that. Even for quad-turbocharged big blocks with Top Fuel-flowing heads. The F40-MT2 gives 2.21:1, which is really good. Now, if I could build an LSX with MAST heads and twin T66s, to pull 7000 rpm, that'd give me a top speed of 242.4 mph. I may actually need the MU9 gearing for the F40, which would drop that to 213.6 mph. You aren't getting close to 200 using a 4T65E-HD with a 2.72 in third, nor with a 1.91:1 in fourth. Third would need too much rpm, fourth would take torque you can't make. I've always been obsessed with the salt flats racing, and I've studied it all I could. I'd like to see you enjoying your Fiero, so please spill your top secret plans for your engine, and for how many mph you want.

Ok, as of right now I just picked up my potential LSR Fiero. Maybe I will stick with the F40 for this car. I haven't researched ANYTHING on the automatic behind the LS4 as of yet because I originally wasn't intending on using it. I have not really chosen what trans I will run as of yet. I certainly want to go fast [200 possibly]. I also wasn't looking to get there all in one swoop [being realistic, building speed gradually], heck I may even run the car with the factory drivetrain once I get the chassis setup at an ECTA event just to see what it will run.

I will say we're getting off topic here. I will start an LSR thread once it warms up a little and I can start on the chassis in comfort [freakin snow!!!] PM me on this as I would love to hear your thoughts on LSR, and we'll talk about what I intend to build [this build will be my first attempt at anything other than a road race club type car, and my chopper] until I start that new thread anyways.[hmmm... By the way I see you're in Utah, how far are you from the flats?].

This is a good thread and I'm sure alot of people want to accomplish this swap. I'd like this thread to stay on how to make the LS4/F40 swap feasible as I still want to make that happen for myself eventually, and for anyone else who would want to do it.

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 02-14-2010).]

I know an LQ4 block is slightly different from an LS4 block, but the oil passages inside the blocks will be identical, and likewise with the coolant passages and the crankcase area itself. I have a cracked LQ4 block, I propose to cut it to see if a starter will clear everything critical. That'll still leave an issue of which starter and what to bolt it to, but it'll give us some answers. AV8Fiero, your 4T65E-HD has the same gearing options as any other 4T65E, the info is in here (PFF). As for the 1.91:1 in fourth, that's an assumption on my part, and slightly better ratios are possible, but there's still the power taken to run the pump that pressurizes the fluid. Oops, time for church, more later.

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: There's little to no clearance there [see earlier in the thread] on an LS4. The smaller size of the FWD flywheel is what causes the starter mount to be an issue with this swap [trying to avoid use of an adaptor plate]. There are several people working on this problem now, although I haven't heard anything in a bit other than what fieroguru posted last. Check his thread too, lots of good info there as well. Rickad88ygt has a running ls4 swap but with the automatic, there is still good info that can help with a manual swap there as well

I've checked all the threads multiple times, and I only see hypothesizing about too little clearance. There are no photos that present enough visible detail of that section of the engine, especially with a trans bolted up. All the LS4 pics with a trans bolted, of that side of the engine, have the LS4 exhaust manifold blocking any view of the oil filter area. And the few pics I saw of the bottom are mostly showing the oil pan itself, and no detail of the filter area of the block. And I don't have an LS4 to mount up and check clearance on myself, yet. I'd prefer to get as much of the drivetrain and electronics in one purchase, as possible, so I don't have to spend a lot more money buying individual pieces. But it's hard finding anything near me.

I have pics from my first mockup of my LM7 -into-'84 -Fiero, but I'll actually be cutting a cracked LQ4 block this summer.

quote Originally posted by dobey: I've checked all the threads multiple times, and I only see hypothesizing about too little clearance. There are no photos that present enough visible detail of that section of the engine, especially with a trans bolted up.

Let's see if I can clear this up some...

The Zumwalt SBC kit uses a ring gear that is within 1/8" in diameter of the one on the LS4 (or on the stock fiero). So its placement of the starter in regards to the centerline of the crank should be a good starting point. Here is a Z-kit with the offset nissan starter mounted on a 4.3. The SBC/4.3 is not a Y-block design so the block ends about 1/8" below the crankshaft centerline and the oil pan surface is inset from the edge of the block. This helps provide clearance for the starter, and it helps a great deal that the starter body is offset from starter bendix. There is just enough room for the stock 4.3 4x4 oil filter relocation housing to clear the starter.



Now lets go to the LS4 block. It is a Y-block with the block extending a couple of inches down below crankshaft centerline. Also in this picture you can see the oil filter side of the block extends down further than the RWD starter location (this side was raised to clear the auto tranny housing). When using a Z-kit you have to cut this corner off the SBC/4.3 block to clear the auto tranny.


Here are two pictures with the flexplate installed. If you look closely in the bottom left of the flexplate, you can see the oil filter and portions of the oil pan sticking out further than the flex plate.



Here is a picture of the oil pan/filter area of the LS4 - notice how much the oil filter portion of the oil pan sticks out past the side of the block and how much lower it is from the base of the Y-block that is already 1-2" lower than the SBC/4.3. Also, notice how much wider the LS4 oil pan is than the SBC.


If you review the pictures above, with the needed location of the starter and the general shape/geometry of the starter... you to will come to the conclusion that there just is no room for the starter in the oil filter areas if you use the LS4 diameter flywheel.


This is further supported by the fact that when limited to a flexplate with a small enough diamter to fit within the FWD transmission bellhousings:
GM could not find room to put the starter on the engine side of the LS4/4T65 setup (they prototyped the under oilpan placement, but settled on the tranny mounted starter).
FastFieros when he R&D'd the LS/4T65 setup did not find any new starter options (under oil pan and on the tranny).

Also, when LS1Swap and Archie independently R&D'd the LS/Manual transmission combination - both needed to use a 168 tooth flywheel to have room to place the starter on the oil filter side of the block... which is quite a bit larger in diameter than the LS4 sized one and is actually large enough to interfere with the FWD bellhousing bolt pattern.

LS1swap's with 168 tooth ring gear:

He has some good pics and info in his thread:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...040710-2-027739.html
Archies with 168 tooth ring gear:

i was able to work with the pics guri just posted, to show what I propose to cut, and what I propose to do for positioning the starter. This'll be my first ever attempt at getting pics from my pc onto this forum. Here goes:

I think I see what you're trying to accomplish here. Do you think that ford starter described earlier in this thread [with it's larger pinion gear well offset from the motor] would work in this position a little easier?

I expect something like that. To my mind, step one is cut the block. Step 2 is fit a flywheel, and step 3 is experiment with different starters, step 4 being pics, step 5 is a mounting for the selected starter, and step 6 is more pics. I'm wanting to use the flywheel I got from an '89 3.1L Chevy Beretta, then had machined to fit on an LSx crank. I don't plan to ever drive that flywheel, but it's useful for mockup. WCF offers aluminum flywheels with blank centers that could be machined to fit the LSx cranks.
I do have the cracked block to experiment on, so I see no good reason to let this idea go without trying. It's just the block is sitting in one of my cars in a pasture too snowy and muddy to retrieve anytime this month.

The side of the block is pretty much inline with the ring gear on the flexplate in the upper position, so you will need to find a starter where the teeth on the bendix stick out further than the starter body on one side. There are starters that do this for the reverse roation (tranny mounted): the ford starter, original LS4 starter and my nissan starter, but I have never seen a traditional mount starter with that configuration

The challange will be finding a traditional starter with a large bendix... but the larger bendix makes it weaker.
The reverse rotation starters use the larger bendix as an idler, so it does not lose much torque. So ideally finding a reverse rotation starter motor, using a larger bendix for the offset and mounting it on the engine side... just need to find the right combination of parts.

Tilton sells various diameters of bendix's for their starters, most are for a tranny mounted starters, but you might get lucky.

Good info, thank you.

Still no engine, but my intake is one step closer to being at home in a Fiero...

That'll make a great contrast to a set of the 'vette coil covers that are black with red script. Nice!

quote Originally posted by Isolde: That'll make a great contrast to a set of the 'vette coil covers that are black with red script. Nice!

If I cover the coils, I'll probably make custom ones from carbon fiber. I don't want any that say Corvette on them or some engine this isn't. And carbon fiber would look a lot sexier anyway. Maybe I can use the Vette ones to mold from though.

Just thought I would share my latest F40 starter configuration - I switched to the ford taurus starter and the fiero ring gear:

quote Originally posted by dobey: Still no engine, but my intake is one step closer to being at home in a Fiero...

Well, I have an engine now. Just bought one off eBay a few minutes ago. I'll be starting another thread as soon as it gets here and I can start tearing it down.

WOW! that looks awesome and very doable. Not too complicated either. It looks like you a most practical solution to the starter mount issue. Would it be possible for you to post up the dimensions and specs of your solution so your design could be duplicated by others, or would you be willing to perform the mods for a fee? Let us know.

Thanks, Chris

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88blackchopv8

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: WOW! that looks awesome and very doable. Not too complicated either. It looks like you a most practical solution to the starter mount issue. Would it be possible for you to post up the dimensions and specs of your solution so your design could be duplicated by others, or would you be willing to perform the mods for a fee? Let us know. Thanks, Chris

Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you the dimensions... didn't really measure anything, just a large amount of fitting/filing/milling, etc till insanity set in... The welding wasn't nearly as bad as I though it would be... but I had been practicing.

Here are some pics of the stock LS4 starter configuration on the 4T65e-HD... There is really no reason one couldn't weld a new starter pad to mimic this one on the F40 (just need to do some clearancing).








The stock LS4 starter is alittle smaller than the ford unit I am using and the LS4 starter gear sticks out a little further. Only two downsides to the LS4 starter right now is cost and long term availability, but it would be fairly straight forward. My personal downside would be possible interferance/heat issue with over the tranny headers... but won't know till I am much farther along.

I may play with this starter/mounting method some more when I modify my 2nd F40 for a tranny mounted starter.
BTW, this location will not work on any of the other fiero manual transmissions w/o some additional work since the clutch release lever would be in the way. The HTOB getrag should be able to be modified...