i posted this on Central Florida Fieros, not too long ago, and forgot to put it on here... sorry, all. as you can see, though, CFF was very unresponsive, which is why i'm bothering to sign in. (i don't like signing in, so i don't if i can help it.)
i ramble.
as you could tell by the title, i have come into contact with a diamond in the rough. instead of explaining, i'll just put the link to the other site (and i have a video), but post here to make things easier.
Also, we realized that we have a power steering pump, which is unneccesary in our fiero. rather than keeping the bulk of the pump (it needs to be lubricated by the power steering oil, so we would have to run a line in a circle), we want to get an idler pulley. does anybody have any suggestions? i'm not sure, but i think that the 2.8 has an idler pulley...
[This message has been edited by Mr_jacob7 (edited 07-21-2009).]
IP: Logged
05:12 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15482 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
You ran that engine test for a long time without any coolant!! If it wasn't broke then it might be now. Dry engines should never be run for more than 30 seconds. You should have at least filled the block with water and connected the radiator water hoses together.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
IP: Logged
05:38 PM
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
You ran that engine test for a long time without any coolant!! If it wasn't broke then it might be now. Dry engines should never be run for more than 30 seconds. You should have at least filled the block with water and connected the radiator water hoses together.
Looks like they had cold water running?
------------------ My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build. You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped its mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs. (Leader of the Insurgency)
IP: Logged
05:41 PM
Jul 22nd, 2009
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
I would suggest you go to the junk yard to acquire a pulley, check out what general shape and size, some measurements will also help. I could find no direct match to low mount my alternator (don't cut your trunk lid) what ever pulley you will get will need modification to mount on the TGP block.
If I can help with anything let me know, I know a few things about this swap.
If you are going to go through the trouble do this swap, you could swap to the gen3 heads and intake (40 % increase in flow over TGP heads) on the cheap with little effort.
I also have some modified brackets for mounting the Fiero accessories on the aluminum heads, a gen3 big valve set of heads, intakes and throttle body. I will not be using this stuff, and will sell them at a reasonable price if you are interested.
IP: Logged
07:24 AM
Scoobysruvenge Member
Posts: 550 From: Richmond Virginia Registered: Apr 2009
What transmission will you be using ??? The TGP is a neutral balance motor, so if you plan on using a manual transmission you will need an 88 flywheel.
Hope this helps
IP: Logged
10:20 AM
Oct 5th, 2009
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
After many saturdays and a lot of praying, it's in. Still got wiring to do and some misc. but it's in!! Hopefully running next weekend and on the road the following. This car is going to be like new. While it was down, we powdercoated the wheels, cut springs, all new tie rods, ball joints, of corse new engine and 4t60 tranny, shocks, struts, exhaust and a few more items. I'll keep you all posted.
also, What is the best exhaust to use? Flowmaster 80 series... Spinteck? Others? I plan to have a Y pipe out of the turbo into two smaller mufflers and the dual exhaust.
morning, say what kinda horses (H.P.) are you expectin' out of this engine swap??? I am researchin' swaps this fall/winter for a spring time swap hopefully. right now its gonna be a 3800 II turbo or supercharged (240 hp)??? also considering a AMG SRT-4 Crossfire eng.(330 hp) if it will work. also thinkin about LT1 GM (275-300 hp). still early enough to Dream though. thanks in advance. Later- Dan
IP: Logged
09:10 AM
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
well, for the moment, we're content with the 205 hp that it already has. we've been nickle-and-dimed to death, and are just putting the engine in the car, then relaxing for a while. in a car this small, that set-up is going to produce an estimated mid 14 seconds on the 1/4 mile. however, once we've got it settled in the car, and have a bit more cash to spend freely, I'm looking into buying an after-market boost chip to put in the ECM. with one simple change, it's been known to boost the engine to 240 horses, giving an estimated high 13-seconds. then, if we really want to zoom, the next-size up turbocharger is only a few hundred dollars, and would provide approximately 315-325 horsepower. This would be a scorching mid-12 second, if my numbers are right (and they probably aren't.)
anyway, we've got high hopes for this motor. maybe too high (because 12 seconds is usually a $30,000+ thing), but we'll see. first, we have to get it working. haha!
(edit) That's $30,000+ on the motor, alone, thing...
[This message has been edited by Mr_jacob7 (edited 10-05-2009).]
IP: Logged
01:32 PM
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
say that o.k. its close. I hate math anyway. I'll keep watchin' and chattin' cause I don't know squat about engs. hope to learn from you and all the other threads i've scoped in the archives. Wanna do something with this Mera: . something boss. have seen New crate LT1 for under $2000 new. just don't want to modify the Frame. so far its the 3800 II SC. Later- Dan
[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 10-11-2009).]
IP: Logged
04:15 PM
PFF
System Bot
Oct 6th, 2009
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
current (205 hp): 14.48 Sec with boost chip (245): 13.64 Sec With Boost chip and bigger turbo (320): 12.48 Sec
like I said; i doubt it's all correct. we'll just have to see.
Well, your current est. I'd say might surprise you, it could be quicker... You'd also be surprised as to how hard it is to break into the 12's. There are a few other things you'll have to change in order to upgrade to a larger turbo as well.
Looks good so far, can't wait to see it in the car ( I vote custom mandrel bent 2.5-3" with the flowmaster muffler.
[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 10-10-2009).]
We had a complete McLaren turbo setup sitting in the shop a while ago and determined that it would not fit the Fiero engine compartment very easily. Although we have never done this swap, measurements indicate interference problems will need to be overcome. Its a unique swap for sure. Good luck with it.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
IP: Logged
10:19 AM
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
So how is the overall fit and deck lid clearance? This is the only 3.1L grand Prix 3.1 turbo install that I've seen and am curious if my measurements were correct.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
IP: Logged
02:56 PM
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
it doesn't clear the springs for the decklid. those are going to have to come off, and then we'll see if it fits. right now, i'm skeptical, but we jsut wanna get the motor actually working, first.
my thoughts are a custom hood, and probably a lift-off one. that'll be interesting.
IP: Logged
03:02 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15482 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
it doesn't clear the springs for the decklid. those are going to have to come off, and then we'll see if it fits. right now, i'm skeptical, but we jsut wanna get the motor actually working, first.
my thoughts are a custom hood, and probably a lift-off one. that'll be interesting.
From our measurements we found that the alternator would contact the deck lid and there would be some interference with the deck lid hinge brackets. There was also some issue with the crossover pipe and exhaust but it was so long ago that we had the McLaren setup that I don't remember what all the issues were. Keep us posted and keep the pictures coming. If you succeed you will be the first one to complete this swap. ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 10-10-2009).]
IP: Logged
07:55 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
we're close. it's in, and we're just hooking up, and working out kinks. found a nice place for the intercooler, underneath (where the Duke's catty was). deck-lid's definately one of our probs, but i think scoobysruvenge said something about a mod for it.
what's your story?
IP: Logged
08:27 PM
Oct 11th, 2009
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Custom2M4: Well, your current est. I'd say might surprise you, it could be quicker... You'd also be surprised as to how hard it is to break into the 12's. There are a few other things you'll have to change in order to upgrade to a larger turbo as well.
Looks good so far, can't wait to see it in the car ( I vote custom mandrel bent 2.5-3" with the flowmaster muffler.
250 WHP can crack 12's in a Fiero.
IP: Logged
10:24 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15482 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
we're close. it's in, and we're just hooking up, and working out kinks. found a nice place for the intercooler, underneath (where the Duke's catty was). deck-lid's definately one of our probs, but i think scoobysruvenge said something about a mod for it.
what's your story?
First my congratulations on getting that engine in place. As for the alternator you can most likely low mount it using a Fiero alternator bracket. As for my familiarity with this McLaren setup; about five years ago we had a complete OEM 3.1L turbo kit here ( turbo, crossover, exhaust manifolds, piping etc) that came off of a wrecked turbo grand prix with 8K miles. We planned to install it on a 2.8L. We took some measurements and decided that the fab work was more than we wanted to cope with. If I recall the exhaust exited towards the rear and the crossover presented interference problems. The turbo used on that kit was also a very small Garrett T-3, probably great for low end performance and moderate top end work. That setup should run really great in a Fiero and you will have a very unique and quick car.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I'll definately try the low mount, but if not, i'm sure we'll work something out. it's just cosmetics. ;] as far as the exhaust, it matches up, here, exactly where we want it. we couldn't have asked for a better spot. idk what the problem with yours was... :\
wait, the way you were picturing it, did you have the name-plate faceing the back of the car, or the front? because we've got the name-plate facing the front (which really bothers me.)
------------------ "Be not led astray, bretheren beloved..." -James 1:16. _________________________
Orange 1984 Fiero; McLaren 3.1 Turbo.
IP: Logged
06:57 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15482 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
I'll definately try the low mount, but if not, i'm sure we'll work something out. it's just cosmetics. ;] as far as the exhaust, it matches up, here, exactly where we want it. we couldn't have asked for a better spot. idk what the problem with yours was... :\
wait, the way you were picturing it, did you have the name-plate faceing the back of the car, or the front? because we've got the name-plate facing the front (which really bothers me.)
Boy this is ancient history!!!!-LOL!!!! One of the things that I recall was that the 3.1L manifolds did not fit the 2.8L as they have two different style heads so you obviously don't have this problem. The exhaust exited at the rear so routing the exhaust was difficult. . I also believe that the turbo came very close to the deck lid and it had an exhaust shield over it. My memory is being called upon to go back 5 years and a dozen engines so all of this may not be right on. Keep up the good work!
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
IP: Logged
11:22 PM
Oct 12th, 2009
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Any one interested ??? I have some Fiero accessory brackets that have been converted to fit the 2nd Gen/ 3rd Gen aluminum heads, Gen 3 heads, intakes, throttle body, turbo block and the turbo crank that fit the Mclaren engine listed here. Gen3 from Gen 3 Top end is good for 40% more flow and a lot more HP getting you closer to that 300 + HP mark. I was going to do this swap, but have opted for another engine and trans combo, I also have a Getrag Fiero 5 speed I will no longer be using. I will let the lot go at a very reasonable price. Remember if you are going to use the Fiero accessories, you will need an 88 balancer to match the belt and neutral balance TGP crank. I would use the TGP water pump and accessories and relocate the alternator, this is my opinion of course, but I did a lot of research on this engine swap and know a lot about the pros and cons of this swap, so if I can help let me know.
IP: Logged
11:26 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15482 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Not bolt on for sure but almost anything should be able to be modified to fit. I don't believe that here is not much of a choice here as that alternator is way up there but not having done this swap I can't say for sure. Thats one challenge. If you look at the way the exhaust exits a creative plumbing job is in order here. All in all you've got to admire this guy for taking on a swap that no one has done. I'm sure that he will complete it, but as in any swap, mods and fabs seem to be the rule.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
IP: Logged
12:11 PM
PFF
System Bot
Oct 15th, 2009
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
throttle cable works perfectly. a little mod (a ghetto hole-drilling extention that really came out pretty well) fixed it all up, and i get from idle to full power with the pedal, as is expected from an automobile.
Transmission cable works perfectly, as well. some small modding to the bracket for the cable was needed, but that's all taken care of and we have all gears synched with the shifter.
intercooler's almost done, i believe... my dad was working on the air hoses. we had to mod some of them, but they work realy well.
i'll put a bunch of pictures on in a few mins. have to chill for a few mins, as i just got home from school (an hour ago.)
still no verdict on the deck-lid. thinking about a "6-pack" scoop, or something similar. (6-pack was the hood scoop used on the 'cudas.)
going to finish the water system, and air system, and i'll start on electrical, tomorrow, as well. we're getting close, guys!
------------------ "Be not led astray, bretheren beloved..." -James 1:16. _________________________
Orange 1984 Fiero; McLaren 3.1 Turbo.
[This message has been edited by Mr_jacob7 (edited 10-15-2009).]
IP: Logged
05:10 PM
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
Okay, got some pictures. (picture on top. caption for it, below)
This is the engine in the car.
This is just cosmetics. i need to get a turbo badge, because the 3.1 alone doesn't mean much. (driver side) (the blue is painter's tape.)
This is the mod we made for the throttle, which wasn't quite long enough. this works great, though.
This is how the ECM is. they're both pretty much the same size (the duke's and the 3.1's), but the duke had it's plugs come out of the top, while the 3.1's are coming out of the side. basically, i have to turn the ECM sideways. :\
This is the intercooler's home. (where the catty was)
We modded the black air hose above the turbo. it was origionally facing right into the driver's seat, but we cut and angled it down, and it worked beautifully. (i'm thinking Divine Intervention is at play in theis swap.)
you can see the bracket (to hold the decklid in the open position) is knocking against the air hose, here. they're definately going to have to come off.
even when they come off (they're not, in this picture) it's going to hit the alternator, as you see here.
It's already close, and we've got another foot to go. Decklid's definately going to have to be fixed.
Anyway, there's some of the pictures. if there's anything in particular that ya'll wanna see, let me know, and i can snap a shot.
------------------ "Be not led astray, bretheren beloved..." -James 1:16. _________________________
Orange 1984 Fiero; McLaren 3.1 Turbo.
[This message has been edited by Mr_jacob7 (edited 10-15-2009).]
IP: Logged
05:45 PM
mtownfiero Member
Posts: 1779 From: Mansfield, Mass Registered: Mar 2007
You wont have that problem with the decklid and the alt if you switch the oil pan and acessories setup to the 87-88 fiero style. I have pics if you want too.
Whats the point of having an IC if you are going to run the piping right over the turbine housing before it goes in the tb? Especially without a heat shield. Seems like you are going through extra effort to have he IC when its just getting super heated again, instead of just going straight to the tb and having a water/meth if you are turning up the boost.
------------------ By:Custom2M4 in process-12" front brakes using '88 calipers and '88 brakes in rear '88 rear suspension, Held adjustable links solid mounted 94 3.4TDC, 60-1 BB turbo,A/W IC, Tial 38mm, QuarterMaster button flywheel/twin disk clutch, ARP hardware, fully balanced bottom end, Ported Heads
IP: Logged
12:21 AM
Mr_jacob7 Member
Posts: 377 From: Silver Springs, Florida Registered: Jul 2007
well, got the water hoses all worked out. trying to fit a new air filter in the spot where the current side scoop is. worried about rain getting in, and making the air damp... rigged something up that will suffice, though. we dropped the engine a little more. gonna figure out a way to get it to stay like that, and the decklid will actually almost close. can't find a way to mount the cooler, without it looking stupid.
electrical still haunts us, though. (we have detailed diagrams, but it's stil not going to be fun.)
we'll see what tomorrow brings. (after church, of course.)
later, guys.
------------------ "Be not led astray, bretheren beloved..." -James 1:16.
