quote Originally posted by boretti: Im running the comp cam 260H From Fiero store. My idle is still pretty nice. I have a video of the engine idling by the way. Anywhere on the forum I can put that? Or does it have to be on youtube?

Youtube would probably be the best location as it is one of the least intrusive sites as far as pasting ads on or before your video shows. Post video of the car being driven to if possible.

Why do people think they need to upgrade the bottom end of the 60* engines? I have been running 400+ WHP for years with no issues. I run hypereutectic pistons you can get off the shelf and ARP rod bolts. That's it. Unless you are revving over 7500, there is no need. Spend your money elsewhere.

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62 Buick Special
86 GT, 5-Speed
87 GT, 3.4l DOHC Turbo 415 WHP, 11.9 @ 118
88 Toyota Supra Turbo

[This message has been edited by Matt Hawkins (edited 10-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: Why do people think they need to upgrade the bottom end of the 60* engines? I have been running 400+ WHP for years with no issues. I run hypereutectic pistons you can get off the shelf and ARP rod bolts. That's it. Unless you are revving over 7500, there is no need. Spend your money elsewhere.

We want to run more than 400 hp.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: We want to run more than 400 hp.

well, technically 415whp, is around 475 crank, that's more.

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1986GT 4-speed DOHC and 1987GT Auto

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: Why do people think they need to upgrade the bottom end of the 60* engines? I have been running 400+ WHP for years with no issues. I run hypereutectic pistons you can get off the shelf and ARP rod bolts. That's it. Unless you are revving over 7500, there is no need. Spend your money elsewhere.

Are we talking a 3.4 or a 2.8?

quote Originally posted by boretti: Looks like i might get hold of a pair of mls gaskets from cometic. Ill se what kind of torque they recommend. Thats probably going to make some difference.

So far the best gaskets we used on Turbo Buicks are the Cometic pushing anywhere from 28-35psi boost without any issues, they are made of layered Stainless Steel. The only issue we had with them was coolant seepage between the head and the block. The cure for that is to spray the Copper sealer on both sides and let it tack dry then put them on, no more leaks. The other good thing about Cometics is that; you can reuse them for at least once. I have seen people use them 3-4 times.
Just remember the head gasket is like a fuse and if you tighten the grip there then the next weakest link will go if it detonates or things starts to move on the bottom half of the motor due to excess power.

HTH
Prasad
Good luck

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"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
1986 GT (waiting for Buick GN setup trasplant)
1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8
1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH)
1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet)
1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph)
1965 Mustang Fast back
1936 Auburn Kit (GN power train in process)
1993 40th Anniversary Vette
1999 Audi A4 1.8 Turbo Quattro
2000 Escalade
Other cars; 1997JaguarXJR, 1988XJ6,1989XJ6 & 1984 Mercedes AMG 500SEC

I'm with Matt here. Assuming safe tuning is used, 500 crank horsepower shouldn't be a problem on stock crank. **** , I'm gonna try it with a completely internally stock 3.4 DOHC with 110,000 (or so) miles on it. So far its taking 320 whp like a champ. We have NEVER seen a crank fail due to too much power on one of these engines. I don't even think that I've heard of stock rods failing because of too much power accompanied by a safe tune. Pistons? Well I dunno. And I know that there have been cases of 2.8's throwing rods, but I'd be willing to bet that was on engines that were poorly maintained or were way out of tolerance.

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180* t-stat, cams, 96-97 intake swap, FFP pulley, A/C Idler, P/S idler, ported exhaust mani's, ported lower intake, sheet metal upper intake, 3" Flowmaster exhaust, EGR delete, K&N filter, Magnecor 8.5mm wires, 36# Injectors, T-62 Turbonetics T3/4, Haltech E6K, Liquid-Air intercooled, Synapse Wastegate. Shooting for 450+whp at 15 psi.

Mr. Borretti,

I am curious as to how high your engine RPM goes and at what RPM the power falls off???

Was there any work done to the Fiero heads and or manifold performance wise?

Are you running Comp Cam lifters and is there any float at high RPMs?

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: And I know that there have been cases of 2.8's throwing rods, but I'd be willing to bet that was on engines that were poorly maintained or were way out of tolerance.

The original 2.8's had poor lubrication of the rod bearings. Starting in '88, the rod bearing lubrication of the 2.8 (and all other 60 degree V6's) was improved significantly. I'd almost guarantee that the rod bearing problems you've heard of are on '87 and older engines.

This on the subject of 2.8 - 3.1/3100 - 3.4/3400 – LX9 3500 engine platforms

Some of you guys state no need for a forged crank, people make 400 HP with the stock one all the time. I don’t see a lot of people claiming 400 + HP with the Pics and Dyno sheets to prove it, but as we can see there are a few like Mr. Borretti

Not that HP is not a determining factor in whether or not one needs a forged crank, the decision is usually made on the expected RPM of the engine. The need for a forged crank can come on a 250 HP engine, it depends at what RPM a particular engine or engine configuration is designed to operate at.

The formula is simple in its most basic form… add RPM get HP, but with RPM comes exponentially higher loads on the internal components, especially the crank and rods.

Add a turbo and add a whole lot more load and stress, along with a whole lot more heat. Once prolonged heat enters the picture strange things start to happen in the cast metal world, as well as stressing the delivery of oil through out the entire engine.
The shrinking and swelling further fatigues the cast components, slowly in most cases, but fatiguing them none the less.

Don’t get me wrong, the merits of the stock cast crank are well proven at a reasonable RPM, but with HP going above 350 and RPM pushing beyond 6000 it makes sense if for nothing but insurance that all your hard work, cash and time will not be wasted foolishly.

The rods on the other hand I have little faith in, I initially purchased a Mclaren turbo 3.1 engine to do my project with. After tearing the engine down I discovered a bent rod while inspecting the engine, it was apparent that the it was not a catastrophic failure maybe from a hydro lock, but bent none the less.

Something to chew on.

I spin my engine to 7200 RPM and make 415 whp. I have posted my dyno plots and 1/4 mile times. I bet there isn't another GM 60* engine in the world that makes that much power and has as many miles as I do on mine. This year alone I have put 11k miles on it and almost 60k in it's life. I certainly don't drive it easy and have broken 4 or 5 transmissions.

I hear that people want to make more power, and that is fine. But what trans are you going to use? The 282 is on the ragged edge with my setup. More power and spinning it faster is probably not the best choice. Don't think of 400 whp as not being enough until you try it.

[This message has been edited by Matt Hawkins (edited 10-22-2009).]

Matt,

I would be interested in looking at your dyno sheets if you still have them, it sounds like a great build, do you have a thread here at PFF on your car???

How about the F40 6 speed, surely a man who can afford to replace 5 transmissions could afford a F40 swap.

Hey, Borretti
I am considering swaping a 3800sc into my 2.8v6. I was wondering what is a rough estimate of what you spent on you fieros engine?
Maybe i wont have to swap if its a reasonable price =)?

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Mr. Borretti, I am curious as to how high your engine RPM goes and at what RPM the power falls off??? Was there any work done to the Fiero heads and or manifold performance wise? Are you running Comp Cam lifters and is there any float at high RPMs?

Hi
My rew limit is set to 6700. I set it there because I kept accidentally hitting it. It starts losing momentum from 4500 but the increase in rpm keeps the hp up so it feels like the same pull til it hits the limit.
The heads are ported on exhaust and intake. The hole around the valves is made a little bigger. The shark finns before the intake valves are ground down. the headers are made for me from stainless steel.
The lifters are the ones that came with the cam. With stainless valves and performance valve springs. I dont think i experience any floating. Well i dont rev wery high either.

I am hoping Boretti, and maybe others will see this thread again and post pics of their Turbo setup in the engine bay. Something like a top view straight down. I am trying to see how I can place a Turbo on the exhaust manifold while still keeping the EGR valve where it is. It appears not very easy so far.


This may sound silly , but would an egr valve work if it is laying on it's side, or even upside down? That would probably work!

quote Originally posted by blkpearl: I am hoping Boretti, and maybe others will see this thread again and post pics of their Turbo setup in the engine bay. Something like a top view straight down. I am trying to see how I can place a Turbo on the exhaust manifold while still keeping the EGR valve where it is. It appears not very easy so far. This may sound silly , but would an egr valve work if it is laying on it's side, or even upside down? That would probably work!

I would suggest starting a new thread inquiring about such a thing. But, I think hardly anyone is still running an EGR on their turbo setup. If you think you will fail emissions without the EGR, the turbo is going to be an ever bigger issue.

I have built up the engine and put it back in. I went with the ARP studs and the severe duty gasket from felpro.
I also redid the intercooler arrangement.

http://img51.imageshack.us/i/img2740b.jpg/
http://img688.imageshack.us/i/img2739s.jpg/
http://img215.imageshack.us/i/img2738g.jpg/

[This message has been edited by boretti (edited 03-14-2010).]

Thanks for the pics Boretti. The setup looks great, and gives me a good idea of where exactly the Turbo could go. Looks like the EGR was removed?

Thanks. The EGR is gone yes. I would recommend to do that. Its going to be mostly trouble if you keep it.

Find a set of cometic head gaskets for a 3.1L and use those. they should work, and they are not that expenssive..

Glad you got it all back together! Do you plan on getting it on the dyno again? I'd like to see you squeak out some more hp from the 2.8.

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'88 GT- 3800 Turbo Best E.T.- 11.654 Best MPH-120.65
gmtuners.com -Build info

I had no problems using Felpro head gaskets, heads were also ' O ' ringed.

Looks like a good build

[This message has been edited by skuzzbomer (edited 03-15-2010).]

Just gonna get it running now and then set up an appointment on the dyno. It wouldn't start today. Looks like the coil somehow just failed during winter. Get a new one and try.

Wow, and people say that I have a lot of piping!!

Hehe, its a lot. Do you have pictures of how you did it?

I'm using a 3.8L engine and an intake manifold from a camaro. IDK if its even possible for you to use the camaro 2.8 intake on the fiero 2.8. If it would work, it would put the TB on the pass side. Here is a picture anyway.

Its an older pic, but you get the idea.
Click Here

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 03-16-2010).]

Took the first drive with my fiero today. It's not yet mapped with the new cooler.
http://gallery.me.com/kboretti#100249

[This message has been edited by boretti (edited 05-07-2010).]

I liked that video. About the intercooler, how does it get cool air? Did you cut a hole in the decklid?

I did
http://gallery.me.com/kboretti#100261

[This message has been edited by boretti (edited 05-08-2010).]

sorry if this is a dumb question, the Lx9 is news to me. Can i steal the crank out of that and put it in my 2.8? Or would it have to be modified?

Bump to keep this thread alive

this thread is amazing, nice work on the 2.8

I apologize if I missed this, but would anyone mind dumbing this up? Basically let us other guys know exactly which forged crank will work, and would it need to be modified in any way? (vehicle model and years that its in) Also what forged connecting rods and pistons would work? im going the route a 3.4 myself, so I would like to know anything and everything about this that I can.
Thank you in advance, and that is the sickest 2.8 fiero i know of!

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86 2.8 gt

i am actually doing a 3.4 pr build myself, thats why i dug this old post up. From reading it seems like the bottom end on the 3.4 can be left alone, seeing as it could handle upwards of 400hp and has a 9:1 compression ratio. It seems like some top end work for boost prep and computer managment is what makes these engines throw nice power. Unless someone says i'm out of the ballpark with this (and i beg you do if i'm wrong), I am going to work the stock bottom end with only arp studs and see what happens under some bigger boost

I did a little bit of research, and someone correct me if i'm wrong. The crank I would be looking for would be out of a 04 malibu? I'm kinda confused about one thing though. Further research of mine leads me to believe the cranks are not forged, but are cast steel. Which if im correct is much stronger than cast iron. Would this still work considerably better? Anybody chime in please.

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86 2.8 gt

quote Originally posted by dfinn: i am actually doing a 3.4 pr build myself, thats why i dug this old post up. From reading it seems like the bottom end on the 3.4 can be left alone, seeing as it could handle upwards of 400hp and has a 9:1 compression ratio. It seems like some top end work for boost prep and computer managment is what makes these engines throw nice power. Unless someone says i'm out of the ballpark with this (and i beg you do if i'm wrong), I am going to work the stock bottom end with only arp studs and see what happens under some bigger boost

Well not the whole bottom end. You need a good forged piston. I had some custom made by Ross Racing and they are still in there almost 20 years later (boost dumps at 13.5 psi).

The crank and rods seem to be quite durable, but I'd start thinking about maybe replacing the rods if you were going much above 300 BHP - not sure where the danger line is but wouldn't want to cross it.

One the LNF 4 cylinders, we are seeing bent rods when you get into the 350whp range and up, but some guys seem to exceed that for awhile. We are seeing more cases of the 'Big Bang' catching up with some of them, though.

BTW, no problem on the LNF head gaskets with boost up to 30 psi. I've been using the Felpro HD ones on the Fiero and have never seen any problem up to the 13 psi level.