Here is my solution to the height problem…

I have 6 ½ inches of room below the deck lid to the top of the lower intake to work with.



I need the room below the intake for the discharge plenum, so I need to modify the mounting of the stock fuel rail.



Milling the mounting bosses away and relocating the brackets closer to the rails should do the trick.



With the fuel rail mounting out of the way I will mill a ¼ of and inch off the lower manifold deck.



Once the deck has been milled I will weld two plates one on each side 1 x 2 ½ x however long I need them.



Before the plates are welded a canted hole the size of the runner will be drilled into the plate at each port to extend the runner further to the outside of the blower.



Once the plates are welded I will then add some short tube stubs to the plate for plenum mounting.



Once these simple modifications are done we are ready to set the blower on top for a measurement.



As you can see the red line is the lower intake height before it was milled down a ¼”, this puts the blower right against the deck lid.

A small scoop is probably in order, but I will try to fit in without the scoop. Maybe just a small blister above the throttle body like seem on earlier Eclipse hoods.

Add the plenums and I am in business.



I will be working at it this week and will post with some actual pics when I get started.

Thanks for looking

OK I can't take your MS Paint drawings anymore.

Get Alibre, its free even!

They let you download a "trial version" for free, which disables the high-level fancy tools after a couple weeks or you can actually the software for keeps for $97.
It even spits out handy file formats that you'll be able to send to others with Unigraphics and other popular CAD/CAE softwares.
https://www.alibre.com/

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 02-23-2010).]

Actually it’s Power Point, but close enough Kurt.

I am sick of it to Kurt, but it saves me a lot of time and money… it also lets me throw away bad ideas before I cut and waste any metal on them only to find out they won’t work.

And as for the C-note software goes, I have all but finished the design side of this and am ready to work in aluminum from here on in.

I’ll save the cash for some HP goodies.

Thanks for the interest.

BMG Metals is just 6 miles from work so I decided to make a quick lunch time sortie to dig through the drop pile.



As you can see there is a large selection of drops to choose from, the trick is not getting charged too much for it.



More drops…



After a quick look around I came up with a 37” piece of 6061 aluminum tube to use for the plenum runners.

A charge of 1.25$ a foot for the drop and I was 3.75 lighter, they even cut a 6” piece off it for free.



The tube will need to be put in a vice and egged a little to fit the 1 ¼ x 2” holes in the intake, the 1” block should make this a little easier as it can be shaped to accept the tube.

With pipe in hand I was off… back to work…

I will be getting some shop time in tonight and hope to make some progress.

I started by setting up the 1.125” plate in the mill by leveling and squaring it with a dial indicator.



Once the plate was set up a truing cut was made to insure that the edge was square and free of any minor dents and dings the edge may have suffered.



With every thing set I indexed the plate.



Now that I had a nice edge, I began the milling with an 11/64 tool to make the cut.



The mill settled in at .070 at a pass without much fanfare.



After many passes the plate was finally cut, a tool change to a nice finishing bit and a final pass to make it look sexy.



With a nice finish on the edges I was ready to move to the next step.



With plate in hand I set it on the runners and contemplated on the welding that needs to happen in order to attach this plate to the lower intake.



Out of time I cleaned up…

I will index the lower intake ports on my next trip to the shop and begin the port work to the plate.

Thanks for the interest.

I left off with a freshly cut plate in our last episode.



I started by cutting up some 1 ½” 6061 into 4 pieces a fish mouth and 15, 30 and 45 degrees.



A closer look at the fish mouth.



A quick check of the fish mouth spacing.



At 15



At 30



At 45



I settled in with the 30 degree cut, a look from the top shows the over hang.



An overlay of the pipe and a sharpie does the trick.



An overlay with the fish mouth and some more sharpie work and I was ready for the other side.



Measuring center for the other side.




A quick measurement and I was ready for the another overlay.



Overlay of the upper intake ( I knew I cut this for a reason)



With the intake port marked I was ready to look at it on the engine.









I was ready to get serious, you can remove marker but you can’t put aluminum back. (without welding anyway)

Measure twice cut once.



With some hesitation I started to drill, but I stopped and measured it all one more time.



An angle finder on the drill, a wipe of my sweaty palms and the whine of the drill and I had my hole.



A flip of the plate and a touch with a die grinder to test how hard the aluminum is going to be to remove for the port work. (not too bad)



Out of time again I cleaned up.

On the next trip to the shop I will use the mill to remove as much of the material as I can before I start hand porting this.

Thanks for your interest.

Riding home Friday evening I was thinking on the plate design I had begun to fabricate on my last trip to the shop. The thought of how hard it was going to be in retrospect to make six of these ports and get them evenly CC’d was indeed a large order.

I woke Saturday with the problem filling my head with doubt… I got to the shop and looked at the intake intensely for a half an hour or so playing around with some of the angled tubes I had cut.

Before I went the plate route I looked around for some oval tubing that would fit around the port nicely but had not luck.

So I decided to chuck a small piece in the vice and give it a squeeze to see what I could do with it… I started with a small 30 degree scrap.



Setting the piece on the intake looked promising.



A little work with a body hammer and I had a better shape. I will use a wooden form to get a finished oval, but this is fine for now.



With the test piece a success I began to make some more 30 degree cuts at 2.5” long.







The process was going smoothly with 3 of the 6 pieces made and the intake was starting to take shape.





After a little more fab work I had all six pieces cut and ready for the next step.





Laying some of the 3” box I have on top to get a feel for what king of space I will have.





I will not be using the box I will be using the 2.5” tube I have for this, but you get the idea.

The ports on the lower intake will need some material built up around them on two sides… You can see the gap if we look at this photo again.



The next step will be to pull the lower intake for welding, but that will have to wait for my next sortie… Sadly I was out of time again.

Thanks for your interest.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge:

Dude, you can quit working on the 3x00 motor, I found you something better. Its in the far background of this pic.

(kidding)

Nice progress

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 03-01-2010).]

Thanks

The answer from Magnason superchargers engineer “Simon” is every thing past the throttle body, but do not include the supercharger volume.

This means I will need to trim a few cubes off the plenum runners.

From 160 Cu (2 x 2 x 20) down to 120 or so, when I do the exact math I will post what I come up with for the Intercooler and related piping volumes.

I went to the bone yard with my brother yesterday evening, the local one price fits all yard had this 3500 intake manifold for 19.99$



I don’t need it (yet) I hope to start some welding on the intake this week end. I know that when cast aluminum is saturated with oil or some other substance it can bleed into the welds.

I’ll pay the 20 dollar insurance fee, it was a good price and if I screw up I don’t need to wait to find a replacement. (I’ve waited long enough)

When I got home I found the oval tube waiting for me. After opening it I found it to be a very high quality extrusion, not 15$ a foot nice mind you, but a very quality piece.





I will hopefully get started Saturday morning, the welding should go very quickly, it will be the set up of the jig to ensure that the tubes all fit the same.

A piece of angle, some vice grips and some careful measurements should do the trick.

Thanks for the interest.

I got home Friday and to my surprise the house was devoid of life… The note on the table read “back late… dinner in oven on low”

I quickly shoveled some casserole into a disposable cup grabbed a plastic spoon a hurried off to the shop before you could say chicken casserole.

I set the chop saw up and got ready to makes some cuts on the expensive oval tubing I purchased.



I set up the first cut at 30 degrees just like the round tube I egged in the vice before.



I made the first cut and everything looked OK



All set I began to make the 30 degree x 3” with a flat opposite of the angle cut.



With all six made it was time to move to the next step.



A quick clean up with a die grinder and I was ready to test fit the runners.



With every thing looking good I used a piece of angle iron and some vice grips to mock up the runners…







With everything clamped up I was ready to get it to the bench and start tacking it together when I discovered we were out of argon.



This was a terrible thing because I wasn’t sure if I could find anyone Saturday that was open. I would have to wait and see Saturday morning as it was already late Friday evening…

Excellent documentation of process and procedure. Thanks for sharing. I've thought before that this would probably be the most appropriate manner to achieve excellent horsepower in our cars. However, thinking and doing are not the same. Congrats on doing. I'm watching with interest.

Ken

------------------
'88 Formula V6
'88 GT TPI V8

Thanks Kennn,

I think a m90 from a T-Bird would work very well on a 2.8… it blows from the back rather than the bottom and could easily be mounted several inches lower than the bottom discharge style superchargers.

The smaller M62 also comes in many configurations, is physically smaller than the M90 and would be easy to adapt to the 2.8 / 3.4 engines.
In fact it is narrow enough that it would probably fit between the lower intake runners without modifying the lower intake

Don’t get me started… I’ve been looking at the 2.8 in the Fiero and thinking of the ways I could easily package a supercharger under the factory deck lid, it would be far less complicated than stuffing the M112 in there.
You could even mount it on the trunk side of the block and use the stock intakes blowing through the stock TB.

Let’s see… add a super charger to a bone stock 2.8 and get 40% more HP = 196 HP on the stock components… open up the exhaust a little and you’d be well over 200…

Again thanks for your interest…

Pressure ratio (boost) is the dependent variable in this situation. You need blower speed and engine volumetric to get boost, not the other way around.

Kurt,

I am unsure where you are going with this???

1.9 absolute is roughly 14 lbs above atmospheric or 14 lbs of boost no equation needed here.

Blower RPM is as you can see on the map 12,000 RPM… Note where these two intersect.

These in combination with CFM place you on the compressor map above.

This shows the efficiency of the blower at a given speed (12,000 RPM), pressure ratio (1.9 absolute or 14 lbs of boost) and the amount of air flow (650 CFM)

This could be for any engine not just mine.

The compressor map shown here in this thread is intended to display how much heat the blower will make at 14 lbs of boost (pump gas limit) with the current pulley configuration I have, not how much boost the blower will make.

I might have missed something here, so if this doesn’t satisfy let me know

Thanks for your input

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Pressure ratio (boost) is the dependent variable in this situation. You need blower speed and engine volumetric to get boost, not the other way around.

I agree with kurt here. On my l67 when i had a 3.4 pulley I was running around 10psi, I let the engine breath a little better,I put high ratio rockers on and it dropped to 7-8 psi. Boost is pretty relative, you might get more than 14 psi with a 3" pulley if your heads can't flow it.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Kurt, I am unsure where you are going with this??? 1.9 absolute is roughly 14 lbs above atmospheric or 14 lbs of boost no equation needed here. Blower RPM is as you can see on the map 12,000 RPM… Note where these two intersect. These in combination with CFM place you on the compressor map above. This shows the efficiency of the blower at a given speed (12,000 RPM), pressure ratio (1.9 absolute or 14 lbs of boost) and the amount of air flow (650 CFM) This could be for any engine not just mine. The compressor map shown here in this thread is intended to display how much heat the blower will make at 14 lbs of boost (pump gas limit) with the current pulley configuration I have, not how much boost the blower will make. I might have missed something here, so if this doesn’t satisfy let me know Thanks for your input

Here's a new one, since yours is missing bottom axis labels.

The blower efficiency map works like this.
For a given operating point, you'll know the blower speed. You can see that as resistance at the output increases (pressure ratio increases) the amount of air pushed through will decrease, due to slip past the rotors.

What you don't have a way of knowing yet is what the pressure ratio is, as you only get a pressure ratio from resistance at the blower outlet. This is to say, that if you spun the blower with the bottom disconnected from your intake, even at 12000 RPM, the pressure ratio would be 1:1. If you bolt the blower down to the engine, and then take 3 of the intake rockers off so the blower has to exhaust through only 3 cylinders, your pressure ratio will be astronomically high.

Until you build your motor, you won't know how "deeply it can breathe" so you won't know how much restriction it poses to the outlet of the supercharger, so you won't know a real "boost" number.

The CFM at inlet number is purely a function of blower inlet speed, its not a place where you can input your engine parameters to get a useful boost level.

Of course, boost in psi is really a meaningless number in the grand scheme of things unless you're comparing two identical (ie stock 3800) engines, because as Justin said, the more you do to increase flow, the lower the registered "boost" you will record, even though you are filling the cylinder with more air and making more power.

The "real" measurement of power is either CFM through the MAF or knowledge of injector pulsewidth while knowing injector size. These criterion will tell you how much air and fuel is being burned, and to a large degree, how much power is being made.

Thanks guys,

Great information as I am new to the supercharger world and still learning, your input is greatly appreciated

The map was purely a tool to look at the heat or efficiency of the blower at Max or close to the maximum potential of the M112 on street gas with my current pulley set up.

Thanks for the input

oh yeah, forgot to finish what I was gonna tell ya.

So, as you've probably figured out by now, 1250 cubic meters per hour is about 735 cfm.

You've started with an engine making 200-210 horsepower, which takes something like 315 cfm ROUGHLY, BALLPARK, etc.

So it appears you're going to put over twice as much air into the chamber each stroke, and at least twice as much fuel.


It appears you'll be putting over 100hp into the blower drive belt, hope you got something good planned.

There are several things that seem to come up in almost any blower conversation… at the top or near the top of list is belt slip.

My 3500 has a 6 groove pulley, I considered swapping the blower pulley to a 6 groove, but after some home work I quickly abandoned that idea.

This means that I will need an 8 groove balancer for the swap. I have several ways to achieve this.

1 get and 8 groove balancer and modify it… I picked this 4.6 for unit up on ebay for a song and 12$ shipping.







I may try to machine the 3500 balancer down to just the crank sleeve then machine the center out of the 4.6 balancer the same size as the crank sleeve from the 3500 and weld them together.
Then machine the weight of the balancer down to the same weight as the 3500 balancer.

The second method would be to find an 8 groove balancer ring that will replace the 6 groove. You can have the balancer rebuilt for 115$ and have the new ring bonded to the 3500 balancer.

This would be easiest and I will be making a junk yard sortie to look for just such a balance with an 8 groove ring that I could cannibalize. If one exists that is.

I am researching the viability of this now.

I will be using 8 groove accessories from what ever I can get them off of at the boneyard on the cheap. I will low mount the alternator and AC while custom mounting the accessories I will get a nice 180* wrap on the belt to keep slip to a minimum.

Another problem might be the clearance between the balancer and the frame rail… The 2.8 balancer is already smacked up against it.

So I have a lot of angles to work out and a lot of work to do…

I will post progress as it happens.

Thanks for the input.

My bro found this last night…



I plan to call them later today... I will let you guys know what I find about 8 groove availability and cost.

I do not know what the 3500 balancer looks like, but the mid 90's 3.1 and 3.4 FWD versions are 6 rib with excess width (I normally turn this portion off for clearance), but you could use this space to turn the additional belt grooves. This balancer will bolt on and can be purchased new on ebay for under $50 (used to be $8 each a couple years back).

Guru,

This is a great idea... and much better than anything I’ve come up with so far… I will be looking at this very closely tonight to see if I have the extra material on the face of my balancer.

If not I will see if the 3.1 is similar. The local bone yard has balancers for 11.95 you pull.

Thanks very much for your input…

I have been watching your F40 build and think your doing a great job on it. I have been looking into the F40 swap, but I have to finish the engine first.

Thanks again.. I included a positive rating along with my thanks.

Hope it works for you!

I have been watching your thread close as well... the ones with over the top fabrication/machining are the most interesting to me.

Keep up the good work!

Sadly my balancer has no face material to remove…



Making it to the shop I started with a few measurements… starting with the 3500 balancer.



It measured 6 ¾ OD and the inside diameter is not even close to 4.6 balancer I have… the pulley shape is all wrong where it mounts to the balancer… the short and skinny here is, I cannot bond the 4.6 pulley ring to 3500 balancer.

The 4.6 balancer measures 6 7/8 OD and as you just heard the ID isn’t even close.



The weight of the 4.6 balancer is also much greater than the 3500 balancer.

With all that said I will be going with Fieroguru and his idea to use the 3.1/3.4 balancer pictured earlier in this thread.
Machining this piece for two extra grooves should be very easy and within my means.

I will try to get to the junkie this weekend to get my hands on a 3.1/3.4 balancer, but they are calling for rain… We will see.

Again I am no expert on anything… well maybe changing my mind… but other than that I have to read, study and confer with the experts on the varied problems I need to solve and I have done some home work on balancers…

What I understand is that diameter is important… this is because as the weight moves further away from the centerline of the crank it changes the “harmonic” a better word may be the dynamic.

The thickness and diameter of the rubber isolator between the inner ring and outer ring determine how much dampening the balancer will have.

Of course whether or not the balancer is neutral balance is important as well, my balancer as well as the 3.1/3.4 are neutrally balanced.

The weight of the balancer is also very important… Just from looks I would say that the 3.1/3.4 piece is the heavier of the two and could machined to remove some weight.

Looks can be deceiving though and if it is lighter weight can also be added.

Every little piece of this project has been a real learning experience. I am always surprised at how something that seems so simple can have so many little details wrapped inside.

More fun to come as it happens.

All my procrastination has been helpful with keeping mistakes a minimum, but all good things come to and end…

Saturday morning came and it was time to make some progress… I began with a few measurements from the blower discharge flange and writing them down and measuring them again.





With some recorded measurements I set up a piece of ¼” plate in the mill and got to work on the blower discharge flange.



With a 5 ½” wide piece cut I was ready to move to the next step…





A quick cut long ways down to 14”



With the 5 3/8 x 14” plate cut I test fit it to the bottom of the blower.



Everything looking good I cut a 3 ½” piece for the blower discharge ramp.



With the two pieces cut I played around with the fit and angle.





Sliding it under the blower plate you can see there is ample room and then some for this angle to be reduced allowing the blower plate to be mounted lower.





With all looking well I laid the 3 ½ piece over the blower plate and marked it for machining, adding a ½” to the measurement for the ¼” blower ramp sides I was ready to move on.



I set the blower discharge plate up in the mill trued it and was ready to mill out the blower discharge hole.



With everything set up in the mill I got started with milling out the hole.






With all the milling done I had my blower discharge plate ready for a test fit.





Every thin looked good… A quick layover of the 3 ½ discharge ramp shows a good fit…



Next I set to work on milling the hole in the blower plate itself.





Finishing the blower plate hole I was ready for a test fit.





A quick fit to the bottom of the blower and all was still good.



A lay over on the intake also looked good…





A quick shot with the ramp plate.



A check to make sure the discharge plate will fit through the blower plate shows a tight fit, but still good.



With all that done I trimmed the plate down on both ends within a ¼” of exact (I little material to play with if I need it)







Another test fit… very close to actual size and looking good.



Setting the blower on top shows no ears removed on this side…



And two ears to remove on this side…



I was now time to seal the blower up so I could trim the ears…





One ear removed via sawsawl ( I will mill the rest off later)



The second ear removed…



With both ears removed I set the blower on top…



A close look shows no interference…



A look at the blower discharge flange from the bottom of the plate…



A test fit of the blower ramp shows that the blower can go much lower. I only need 3 ½” for the discharge her I have 8 or 9 inches.



With this I was all out of time for the weekend.

The next step will be to narrow the blower plate another inch to 1.5” this should leave me an inch or so above the deck lid.

I will post it as it happens…. Thanks for looking.

Any plans to lower the engine/transmission to assist in head room for the blower? The center is of the decklid has a bubble up top that you do not have on the sides. Also there will not be much left of the passenger decklid support channel.

You might just want to run w/o a decklid (just keep the portion to cover the trunk) or use glass hatch to show off your work.