that would be a great idea, BUT... the transmission & Oil pan are about an inch apart, & there is no "Clear through" way to even see where the crank meets the seal , less clean it. the only way he's going to know if it's the Seal, Or leaking at the Pan is to separate the engine from the trans. Thats why I said ,"Look at the OIL TUBE first, running down from the Dist, separating the engine should be a last ditch effort. wouldn't they feel foolish if they "pulled the engine, separed it, & found," oops, It's Not the seal ! ?
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03:06 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I have seen a TON of 'rear main seal' leaks that were just the distributor O ring. The way it sits, it is very hard to tell its leaking, and it will run down the engine and drip like a rear main.
Check real close and see. Spray some brake cleaner on the area, it will dry quicky, then run the engine and see if it looks moist around there.
that would be a great idea, BUT... the transmission & Oil pan are about an inch apart, & there is no "Clear through" way to even see where the crank meets the seal , less clean it.
Lou, what I meant was that it may not be at the rear of the engine at all... we're all just guessing it may be there. I wasn't even insinuating that we'd be able to tell what was leaking by a photo if indeed the leak was at the rear of the engine. If by chance it turns out that it is leaking at the rear, then he shouldn't jump to conclusions that it's the main rear seal. It could be just the pan, the cam cover, or as you suggested, from the distributor shaft.
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06:23 PM
30+mpg Member
Posts: 4056 From: Russellville, AR Registered: Feb 2002
I jacked the rear end up and took a look under it, but i couldnt even begin to tell where the leak is coming from because it seemed to be dripping down all over everything, so we are going to wash the underneath tommorrow so we will be able to see where the freshly leaked oil is coming from....
This undoubtedly sounds like the work of a half ass mechanic. Any legitimate shop would have not let the car go if it had an oil leak. Good luck getting it fixed.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:05 PM
Amida Member
Posts: 2355 From: Seattle, WA. USA Registered: Jul 2003
Oil leaks leave a shiny wet trail from wherever the source is. With that amount of leakage it should be easy to spot. Take a flashlight & mirror & snoop around starting from the top side & work your way down to the bottom. Also, drag your fingers around gaskets & seals. If you feel/see oil on our fingers then you're getting close to the source. Check the oil pan bolts, new gaskets may settle requiring you to tighten the pan bolts a little more.
The shop did inform you of the leak, but It's unfortunate that they didn't see/realize the severity of the leak beforehand. If you hired them to install what you give them, then that's what they're going to do, leaks 'n all. Hopefully it's not a leaky main seal, if it is then the fault goes back to whoever rebuilt the motor.
using pictures mulletproofmonk sent as a guide, i looked for pudles of oil here, i havent looked with the car running yet because it is dark and hard to see anything, I tried to take a detailed picture of the puddle but it is hard to wedge my phone in there and get a pic
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10:09 PM
PFF
System Bot
Amida Member
Posts: 2355 From: Seattle, WA. USA Registered: Jul 2003
Puddles of oil on the top side = puddles of oil on the ground. It looks like you have more than one leak source. Possibly intake manifold/head seal, or distributor, & valve cover gasket. Oil trickling down the rear of the motor can make the appearance of a leaky oil pan/main seal. You're getting close, but further snooping required.
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10:24 PM
Apr 18th, 2010
Indiana_resto_guy Member
Posts: 7158 From: Shelbyville, IN USA Registered: Jul 2000
1 piece rear main seals are like Fort Knox, when installed correctly they don't leak for a LONG 6 figure mileage time. Even on a grooved crank they do very well. Since the engine arrived attached to a transmission it is obviously a used motor and without a solid history I'm not sure the rebuilt factor is relevant anymore. If the rear seal is the problem the shop did you a disservice by not at least recommending you have them replace it as it would be hard to miss on removal of the flywheel and installing the flex plate.
As a matter of fact, any irregularity they noticed should have been mentioned to you before install to avoid situations like this as well as put a little more cash in their pocket and give you a piece of mind. Maybe it's the distributor seal as some have suggested or a problem near the filter. I don't recall mention of the valve cover gasket being a possibility as well.
It's unfortunate but now days you have to spoon feed a lot of the service providers with common sense instructions they should already have.
I observed a poor customer's ~$3500 bill for a double cylinderhead replacement on a V6 Dodge intrepid with a blown head gasket. The tech said they shopped on Car-part.com and couldn't find an engine. I checked and found a complete motor with nearly the same 87k miles on it as what they were working on within about 50 miles of the shop (and several others) while the car was in the shop. One cylinder head cost as much as the used low mileage engine ~$850. The complete engine swap would have saved the customer about $1600 plus the possibility of future engine failure due to water in the engine oil. What do you think.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 04-18-2010).]
If the engine was still attached to the transmission when you bought it and the shop removed the transmission, flywheel and flex plate and didn't see gobs of oil inside the bell housing, I find it hard to believe that it is the rear main seal unless the engine was sitting for a very very long time. (ie: enough time for the rubber on the seal to dry rot. I just don't think the installation would have damaged it so either it was leaking before and they blatantly ignored it, or the leak is coming from somewhere else. This is also assuming that this "rebuilt" engine wasn't "rebuilt" and then mated to the transmission without ever having installed it or adding fluids. Just my .02 in my limited experience.
Its obvious you are not a mechanic but your putting in a good effort. If the shop quoted you a price to fix the leak, they probably know where the leak is, if not it wouldn't be a bad Idea to get another shop to look at it.
As a matter of fact, any irregularity they noticed should have been mentioned to you before install to avoid situations like this as well as put a little more cash in their pocket and give you a piece of mind. Maybe it's the distributor seal as some have suggested or a problem near the filter. I don't recall mention of the valve cover gasket being a possibility as well.
It's unfortunate but now days you have to spoon feed a lot of the service providers with common sense instructions they should already have.
Sometimes seals can be funny, It might only leak when it gets oil pressure. I doubt the shop ran the engine outside of the car. I agree if it was my shop it would have been pulled apart and the customer would have been charged for the parts but not the labor, even that would leave some customers ungrateful after the bill goes up and the cars stays at the shop 2x more time than it was supposed to.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 05-31-2010).]
Since people didn't look at the other thread, I separated the transmission and there is no rear main seal. Since the shop had to take off the 4 speed/clutch/flywheel to put on the automatic/torque convertor/flexplate they should have noticed there was NO rear main seal. It was obvious to me and I am not a mechanic working at a shop...
WOW! What a shitty shop! I still don't know as if there is any liability on their behalf but not noticing that is nearly impossible and not informing you to buy one or even throwing in one for free speaks volumes for them. They can see that you needed their professionalism to make sure this swap was done correctly and apparently could have cared less. I am sorry for this shitty situation dude.
So, i went to the shop today and i showed them the picture of the no seal, and i asked them howcomethey didnt notice when they did the swap, andthey went onto tell me that the flexplate was already bolted on to the engine and ETC, they kept spitting off in mechanic lingo, and i said "well, from my understanding,it was a manual transmission, i have an automatic, and when you switched it over this rear seal should of been exposed" to which they told me that theengine was on a wooden crate (the engine stand we brought it in on) and they were taking the transmission off from above and they dont inspect engines. They assumed that it was a perfect engine. they basically just walked circles around me, i dont know nearly enough to stand there and argue with them. But it sucks, i happened to see my old engine outside when i got there, it was sitting on the engine stand, and it wasnt hard to see a rear while stand up looking down on the engine. So because they dont inspect engines means they do it with their ****ing eyes closed?
idk, there is no way they can be held responsible, because if i go talk to them,they just tell me how im wrong and start speaking their mechanic lingo, and im left confused, and unable to argue back.
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11:05 AM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
1 They should have noticed once the flywheel was off that the seal was missing. I see some value in the argument. It sure would have been nice if they did notice it and it got fixed before the engine was installed in the car.
the other argument is
2 All engines need to be assembled with the rear main seal in place This argument is without a modifier like should. Anyone who assembles an engine without a seal is clearly not doing it right.
Which argument has more weight? Clearly #2. Sorry to say I don't think you can hold the shop that installed the engine responsible. Their job was to install an engine you delivered to them that they were told was a good working engine. Any responsible shop would do things like check and make sure there is oil in the crankcase before starting it. A responsible shop however would NOT check for the installation of a proper rear main seal during the installation. Has anyone looked to see if the front seal is proper? Nope - because it's not part of the install.
I'm sure this isn't what you wanted to hear but I can't see holding the installing shop responsible for the mistake of the engine assembler.
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11:23 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I feel your pain myself. Since you supplied the engine, they wont be responsible for the engine itself, only the labor and parts they supplied. I always get them to sign a paper noting any damage on the car, and by signing it theyre responsible for any new damage. If they didnt sign such a statement you may be screwed on the damage they did...you have no way to prove they did it.
Im dealing with sort of the same problem. I did a rebuild on my Coronet engine while a local 'reputable' shop did my heads and install hardened seats. They were to install them and finish from there to get the car running. All they did was to tear them down and polish the valves, and painted the heads. They also neglected to put in valve seals (must have gotten distracted during assembly). My brand new engine (so I thought) blew out 5 quarts of oil on the way home and locked up. Im still fighting with them. They had the car from first of March. Supposedly theyre rebuilding it from scratch. Im now only wanting it to start and move as I already have another new engine coming that Im putting in myself. I wont trust his engine rebuild around the block. Yes, I already filed a lawsuit for $7000 in damage whether they have it running or not. ($4500 for new engine installed, $2500/ or return the car I traded them for the work.) At least your car still has a working engine
Lesson learned...............Dont take your car anywhere for service on anything unless you watch what theyre doing the entire time.
Were still trying to get ahold of the PO of the engine to see if he did put the rear seal in when he rebuilt, in which case could mean foul play on the mechanics part, or if he did indeed forget to install it
The PO had NAPA Motors rebuild the bottom end of the motor including dipping the block, grinding the crank, bearings, cam, cam seals. Wouldn't the rear main seal be installed at that time? PO thought that the rear main seal might be leaking because the crank could have been ground too much... Obviously that isn't the case...
Also the PO said that the motor set for an extended amount of time after being rebuilt (about a year sticks in my mind). Based on the rust that is on the end of the crank and around the lip of the block I would say that it set for awhile. Now my arguement is that if the motor set around long enough for that metal to rust, shouldn't the groove for the rear main seal also have rust built up in it? Since it is clean and clear, I cannot believe that it set without a seal and stayed rust free...
They intended to change that rear seal, removed it, got distracted, forgot about it and put the flywheel on. A couple of weeks ago after putting the flywheel on my engine I skipped tightening the bolts down and was in the process of centering the clutch disc beneath the pressure plate before I realized it. No one takes a rear main seal off an engine that is going to be left sitting in a corner somewhere, it makes no sense. I believe they intended to change it as a precaution or apparent necessity and forgot to install the new seal.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-03-2010).]
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11:13 AM
phonedawgz Member
Posts: 17091 From: Green Bay, WI USA Registered: Dec 2009
From what I understand it was receintly rebuilt but not yet ran. It seems to make more sence to say the seal was left off then (You can't put the seal on while it is still on the engine stand) than to say the installers took it off (they knew it was just rebuilt and the seal should have been new so they had no reason to believe it to be bad) and then forgot to re-install one.
Note - The (facts) stated here, used to base my conclusion, are only from my understanding of what happened from reading the thread.
Originally posted by phonedawgz: From what I understand it was receintly rebuilt but not yet ran. It seems to make more sence to say the seal was left off then (You can't put the seal on while it is still on the engine stand) than to say the installers took it off (they knew it was just rebuilt and the seal should have been new so they had no reason to believe it to be bad) and then forgot to re-install one.
Note - The (facts) stated here, used to base my conclusion, are only from my understanding of what happened from reading the thread.
The motor was rebuilt and then attached to the 4 speed transmission to be installed in the car. The engine/transmission set that way until I bought it and sold it to Xeps. He then had the shop install it in his car which is an automatic. At THAT point the shop removed the 4 speed, clutch, flywheel and installed the automatic, torque convertor, flex plate...
From what I understand it was receintly rebuilt but not yet ran. It seems to make more sence to say the seal was left off then (You can't put the seal on while it is still on the engine stand) than to say the installers took it off (they knew it was just rebuilt and the seal should have been new so they had no reason to believe it to be bad) and then forgot to re-install one.
Note - The (facts) stated here, used to base my conclusion, are only from my understanding of what happened from reading the thread.
You can put the seal on while the engine is on an engine stand. That's where my engines have been when I've done it. I just find it hard to believe you can miss the absence of that seal when raising a flywheel up to it.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: You can put the seal on while the engine is on an engine stand. That's where my engines have been when I've done it. I just find it hard to believe you can miss the absence of that seal when raising a flywheel up to it.
That is kind of my point. You remove the flywheel to bolt the flexplate on... I also don't like the fact that they tried to tell him the flexplate was assembled on there when they got it... It truely looks like they pulled the flywheel, thought "that seal should be replaced", pulled it out and forgot to reinstall one (maybe they went to lunch or it was the end of the day and they forgot). I don't think that they were trying to do malicious damage, I think maybe they had good intentions but forgot it and are in CYA mode...
The motor was rebuilt and then attached to the 4 speed transmission to be installed in the car. The engine/transmission set that way until I bought it and sold it to Xeps. He then had the shop install it in his car which is an automatic. At THAT point the shop removed the 4 speed, clutch, flywheel and installed the automatic, torque convertor, flex plate...
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:
That is kind of my point. You remove the flywheel to bolt the flexplate on... I also don't like the fact that they tried to tell him the flexplate was assembled on there when they got it... It truely looks like they pulled the flywheel, thought "that seal should be replaced", pulled it out and forgot to reinstall one (maybe they went to lunch or it was the end of the day and they forgot). I don't think that they were trying to do malicious damage, I think maybe they had good intentions but forgot it and are in CYA mode...
So I still don't get it. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. They were pulling one tranny to install the other tranny, and they knew the engine was rebuilt but not installed in a car, correct?
So why would they have thought "that seal should be replaced"?
Originally posted by 87antuzzi: Im confused now. Is xeps car at muttletproofmonks place???? It the no main seal engine xeps engine???
Let me fill in the history of what happened here and Xeps (Luke) can correct me if I state something wrong...
I bought a car and the motor (with attached 4 speed) from fieroluv and sold Xeps the motor. I asked Xeps who was going to install the motor and he said he had a shop local to him that knew Fieros and would do it for $500. So Xeps had the motor installed by the shop and they ended up charging him $900 for the install. Now when he goes to pickup the car, the shop immediately tells him that it has leaking rear main seal and it would be $xxx to fix it because they have to drop it out again. This seems reasonable at that point because I assumed that it was a seal leaking and not a missing seal.
So at that time Xeps posts this thread. When he posted, he never trashed me or even listed my name as the seller. I could have said "sorry, that's tough luck", but I made the personal choice to make the situation right. I offered to pull the motor and replace the rear main seal if Xeps paid for the parts. Madess (my best friend) towed Xeps car to my house for me and is "helping" me (I say "helping" because he is doing the bulk of the work and has a trick to doing this).
So Madess and I get to the rear main seal (or where it should be) and no seal. So this is where the debate comes in. When the shop installed the motor in Xeps car, (I know some of you will get tired of reading it) they exposed that rear main seal and should have offered to replace it (at a cost of course). Again, to me it appears that the seal was removed based on the lack of rust...
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk: When the shop installed the motor in Xeps car, (I know some of you will get tired of reading it) they exposed that rear main seal and should have offered to replace it
So still I don't understand why they should have offered to replace a brand new seal?
quote
(at a cost of course). Again, to me it appears that the seal was removed based on the lack of rust...
Actually when I look at the bore the seal goes into on the upper sides I do see rust.
Originally posted by phonedawgz: So I still don't get it. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. They were pulling one tranny to install the other tranny, and they knew the engine was rebuilt but not installed in a car, correct?
So why would they have thought "that seal should be replaced"?
Correct, they had to swap transmissions, so they should be looking at that crank just like in my picture, twice. Would you notice that the seal was missing if you were a mechanic? Again, if the motor set without the seal, why isn't it oxidized like the end of the crank and block? Hell, I should go get his old blown engine and pull the seal to see if it rusts in the lip...
