i emailed the moderator@fiero.nl or whatever the address is. no response yet... hes probably busy.

Ummm... It says L32 now.

Hah. Well, L32 was the RPO for the 3.4 in the 93-95 F-bodies as well it seems.

Haha I see that now

yea it was the 3.4. I thought someone was telling me to get that motor instead of the L67 in the car club my freinds are a part of. But then I looked at the 3800 wiki and saw that was the SCIII. Looked more into it and made my decision.

i ordered my L32 from morad. great guy to do business with. orderd it saturday and it arrived this morning to the distribution terminal ready for me to pick up.

the motor has 72k on it and is from a 05 GTP. perfect. now i just need a 98-03 PCM since the 05 wont work.

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: it looks like the GTP FPR is inside the tank with the fuel pump. expensive combination. someone said they fit it into their fiero... easier said than doen. fun :\ lol maybe ill end up using an adjustable FPR to reach that 60 psi...

I've been using the L32 fuel rails on pretty much all of my L67 swaps as of late. Only requires one fuel line be run up to the engine (less possible points of failure/leaks vs. 2 fuel lines) and it makes the bill for buying aftermarket braided AN line and fittings a little cheaper. I also usually cut the stock regulator off a set of L67 fuel rails and set those up to work with the L32's returnless fuel rail system as shown here:



Here's what you would need to buy for AN fittings if you decided to go this route (you would also need a 37 deg AN flaring tool): [all "Earl's" part numbers]

962406ERL – AN -6 male Tee STEEL
561806ERL – AN -6 steel tube nut (need 2)
561906ERL – AN -6 steel tube nut sleeve (need 2)
804606ERL – AN -6 45 deg swivel hose end
800106ERL – AN -6 straight hose end
981506ERL – AN -6 union (or can get this in stainless)
581806ERL – AN -6 tube nut (or can get this in stainless)
581906ERL – AN -6 tube nut sleeve (or can get this in stainless)

The last three parts on the list above are what is mating to the L32 fuel rail, and the part numbers I have provided are for aluminum fittings. The L32 fuel rail is made from 400 series stainless steel. Aluminum AN fittings will work with it, but the stainless versions of these fittings would be a better choice. You will also need a couple of feet of -6 stainless braided fuel hose.

-ryan


------------------
7+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures...

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-04-2010).]

swet, thanks ryan!

what about the fuel pressure requirement differences between the two motors? the L67 is like 43.5 and the L32 is like 60. the L67 FPR covers this? ill be contacting you more in the future since your pretty familure with all of this.

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: swet, thanks ryan! what about the fuel pressure requirement differences between the two motors? the L67 is like 43.5 and the L32 is like 60. the L67 FPR covers this? ill be contacting you more in the future since your pretty familure with all of this.

Stock L32 engines run a fixed fuel pressure (spec is 55-60psi). This pressure does not change based on engine load or boost. The L32 PCM's programming has compensation built into it to account for this "no change" in fuel pressure.

L67 engines have a fuel pressure regulator rated at 3.5 bar = 50psi. That's the static fuel pressure with no vacuum or boost. But this fuel pressure regulator references manifold pressure which means with vacuum present the fuel pressure will be less (down to 43 or so PSI) and with boost pressure it will rise above 50psi, 1psi per pound of boost present. That means if the blower is producing 10psi of boost, you should be getting 60psi of fuel pressure.

What makes the L67 way of governing fuel pressure different from the L32 way? The L67 type setup maintains a consistant pressure drop across the fuel injectors. That means no matter what the vacuum or boost is in the intake manifold, there will always be a 50psi drop of pressure between the rail and the manifold. If you are going to use an L67 PCM on an L32 engine, you should be using an L67 fuel pressure regulator or other regulator that references manifold pressure because the L67 PCM's software does not have the compensation built in to accomidate a fixed fuel pressure regulator.

Can an L67 PCM be tuned to work with a fixed fuel pressure system? Sure, but it is going to involve a lot of tuning work to make it work right.

-ryan

i want to call this the XgA L32 Swap.. XgA being XgovernmentAgent now that i am no longer in the military, my current name isnt suitable and XgA is.

ohh ok, that makes sense. i was thinking that under throttle, it would be the same as the L32's. do N/A FPR's change psi as boost goes up? if yes, then i can use the C6 fuel filter.

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-04-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: i want to call this the XgA L32 Swap.. XgA being XgovernmentAgent now that i am no longer in the military, my current name isnt suitable and XgA is. ohh ok, that makes sense. i was thinking that under throttle, it would be the same as the L32's. do N/A FPR's change psi as boost goes up? if yes, then i can use the C6 fuel filter.

Does the C6 fuel filter's regulator reference manifold vacuum? I don't think it does. And if it does not, then it is a fixed fuel pressure regulator setup. Like I said before, you can make this type of regulator work with an L67 PCM, but you will just need to do a bit of tuning to get it to work right.

nope, no vacuum line. so it is a fixed pressure. makes sense then. older method here i come.

------------------
First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: the motor has 72k on it and is from a 05 GTP. perfect. now i just need a 98-03 PCM since the 05 wont work.

Why won't the correct ECM work?

as far as i know, the 04+ need all the other modules to work. ie, TCM,BCM, gauge cluster and anything else that is computer in the car. even the stock stereo.

The 04+ L32 has a PCM (controls both the engine and the trans), there is no seperate TCM (Transmission control module). The only other modules needed to use an L32 PCM are the BCM and VATS modules from the donor car. And that's because nobody's tuning software can switch off the VATS/PassKey in the L32 PCM's programming. So the BCM and VATS modules need to be installed in the Fiero if you are using the L32 PCM.

Then there's the issue some people are having with the electronic throttle body used on the L32 w/ 04+ PCM where it won't allow full power take-offs from a dead stop. The currently available tuning software doesn't give us access to the Electronic Throttle Control governing tables in the programming. Many people have asked the tech dept. at HP Tuners to add support for these tables in the programming for these 04+ L32 PCMs for years and they have refused to add it.

So it is better to just install a cable-operated throttle body on the L32 engine which allows you to use an older generation OBD2 PCM which there is more tuning support for.

-ryan

another way for the government to control us. its starting...

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-05-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: another way for the government to control us. its starting...

I don't think HPTuners is the gov't. Last I checked, they weren't running for office.

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: nope, no vacuum line. so it is a fixed pressure. makes sense then. older method here i come.

You can tune it...

Mght cost more. Well see what my tuner says for cost wise and what my income is when that time comes.

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: Since I'm going to be using Darths method for the returnless system, using an existing L67 FPR, can I use the L67 injectors on the returnless rails?

Yes.

quote also, as far as the harness and PCM go that I'm gonna need... I'm wanting to have AC. I read, but very briefly, that il need the 03 PCM and harness. Since I'm sticking to the getrag, I can opt out anything that is involved with the auto.

You would only need an 03 PCM if you were using an 03+ 4T65-E trans. Since you are using a manual, you can use any L67 PCM from 96 thru 03. Hell, you could even use an OBD1 PCM if you wanted to. But a 98-01 L67 PCM would be the best choice due to availability and support.

-ryan

score.

I like the Support I can get with it. I'll go 98-01.

What sensors are what on the motor? And what connectors go to what sensor? I really don't want to buy an alldata plan for the GTP L67 and L32. But I need any and all electrical info for both motors that I can get. Any any additional info I'll need for the motor.

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-06-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: What sensors are what on the motor? And what connectors go to what sensor? I really don't want to buy an alldata plan for the GTP L67 and L32. But I need any and all electrical info for both motors that I can get. Any any additional info I'll need for the motor.

For the most part, the L67 and L32 had the same sensors. The differences were in the MAP/Baro sensors (L32 had a baro sensor the L67 didn't use and different style MAP sensor vs the L67's MAP sensor), different throttle body and MAF; but that's about it. Since you are going with the cable-op throttle body, that will take care of the sensors relating to that which will leave you with the MAP sensor that has a different connector. You can either change the connector on the L67 harness so it plugs in to the L32's MAP sensor or you can install an L67 MAP sensor. Everything else uses the same electrical plugs (aside from injectors which you are changing anyway).

As far as locations are concerned, here is a quick rundown (if you are using a cable-op L67 throttle body):

-MAF, IAC, and TPS are located on the L67 throttle body
-Coolant temp sensor is in the lower intake manifold just under the t-stat housing
-MAP sensor is located on a bracket that hangs over the rear valve cover, it would have a vac line going to it from the lower intake (the other sensor that looks identical to this on your L32 engine that has no vac line going to it is the BARO sensor. It is not needed if you are using an L67 PCM)
-EVAP purge solenoid on the L32 mounts directly to the supercharger next to where the throttle body bolts up
-EGR is next to the EVAP and is mounted on it's own bracket connected to the lower intake and exhaust manifold using corrigated pipes
-Ignition module is mounted on the front cyl head by the belts under the ignition coils
-Crank sensor is mounted to the timing cover behind the balancer
-Cam sensor is mounted in the timing cover below the water pump
-Intake air temp sensor is mounted in the induction tubing (L67/L32) or in the air cleaner housing (Fiero air cleaner)
-Oil pressue sender mounts in the oil filter adapter housing which bolts to the side of the engine that faces the trunk on the timing cover
-Rear knock sensor is in side of the block that faces the trunk just above the oil pan
-Front knock sensor is next to the starter (part of block that faces front of car)

NOTE: the 3/8" hose nipple that comes out of the top of the L32 blower housing near where the EVAP purge solenoid mounts is the crankcase breather port. You must either mount a breather filter to this or run a hose from this to your induction tubing (between air filter and throttle body). Do not connect this to a vacuum source, plug it, or leave it open to atmosphere without a filter.

-ryan

is there a certain PCM number i need to make sure i have when i get it? for the 98-01. how difficult is it going to be to hookup the digital cruise with this?

i figured that was to the intake tubing. ill probably just cram a filter onto it lol.

im going to get pictures of all the sensors and connectors on the harness and label them on here so they can be identified easier in the future.

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-07-2010).]

You're using a cable driven throttle body, right? In that case I'm pretty sure you can do digital cruise independent of the PCM.

I know I'll need a 4k PPM signal. No problem with that. Yea, I'm converting to the cable driven. N* or L67 TB n MAF

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: I know I'll need a 4k PPM signal. No problem with that. Yea, I'm converting to the cable driven. N* or L67 TB n MAF

Then I think you should be fine if you hook it up as per Darth's Digital Cruise thread. Right Darth?

well, it looks like this week im not doing a damn thing.



*EDIT* wow, since this is my 5555th post... is that like 777 on a slot machine?

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-08-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: is there a certain PCM number i need to make sure i have when i get it? for the 98-01.

Any one of the below will work...

16236757
09356741
09357034
09361735
09374997
09380717
12209624

quote how difficult is it going to be to hookup the digital cruise with this?

Won't be very difficult. Just follow my digital cruise wiring instructions (you can download them here: http://www.gmtuners.com/files/index.htm . Even one of the aforementioned 3800 PCMs needs no connection to the cruise except for the 4k ppm VSS output (there are two other optional connections you can make, but they are not necessary).

-ryan

lets play the identify these sensors and connectors game! i have a good idea which ones are what for the sensors thanks to darth and his informative post up there. but i want to double check so i know whats what. and with my very iffy memory now from the brain injury, this will help me to remember.

first is going to be the sensors.


#1. MAP, has the vac line going to it
#2. BARO, no line going to it. im guessing that is for know the atmospheric pressure??
those other 2 connectors are the injectors. i know those well because they were a pain in the ass to get off. never delt with those kind before.


#1. to brake booster line
#2. EGR
#3. ETC/DBW TB connector
#4. Boost Bypass Valve and vac distrobution point


knock sensor?? it want connected when i got the motor.


OPS.. maybe fuel pump cutoff too? i think GM stopped doing it this way in 99...


generator


EVAP purge solenoid... this connects to the EVAP canister correct? if so, whats the point of the green knob thingy?


ETC / DBW TB control


?????


crank sensor? or cam? one of the either. which ever this is, i didnt see the other.


ICM and coil pack


CTS


heater core lines? not necessary to connect correct? just loop them into each other?


i need to get an AIT sensor. any specific one or will any from any year do?

thanks for the informative posts ryan!


------------------
First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-09-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: lets play the identify these sensors and connectors game! i have a good idea which ones are what for the sensors thanks to darth and his informative post up there. but i want to double check so i know whats what. and with my very iffy memory now from the brain injury, this will help me to remember. first is going to be the sensors. #1. MAP, has the vac line going to it #2. BARO, no line going to it. im guessing that is for know the atmospheric pressure??

Yes, used by the Series 3's PCM to tell it atmospheric pressure - probably to help it better control the fly-by-wire throttle body opening events.

quote knock sensor?? it want connected when i got the motor.

Yes, that's the knock sensor. Should have another one that looks just like it on the other side of the block. And this one you've shown was probably unplugged by whoever removed the power steering pump or transmission from this engine.

quote OPS.. maybe fuel pump cutoff too? i think GM stopped doing it this way in 99...

Oil pressure switch for a warning light. GM never used any oil pressure switches or sending units to cut off the fuel pumps in any of their vehicles. Earlier vehicles used the oil pressure switch as a backup to turn on and run the fuel pump should the fuel pump relay fail. That's it. In any case, the switch that is currently on this engine you got will NOT work in your swap - you will need to get one for an 88 Fiero 2.8 and you may need to get a 90 deg, 1/4" pipe thread "street" elbow so it will change where your new oil pressure sending unit sits once installed to clear your transmission or axle (depending on what you're using).

quote generator

The plug-in connector on this alternator has 2 terminals. Should have red and grey wires going to it. The red wire will need to be wired up to the PCM, but the grey wire may not be used - or it may, depending on what PCM you end up using (what service number and what year programming).

quote EVAP purge solenoid... this connects to the EVAP canister correct? if so, whats the point of the green knob thingy?

That's a test port GM put on there so you could do a pressure/leak test on the EVAP system. You can remove that connector from the purge solenoid if you press on one side of that white clip. All you need to do once that's removed is just run a vac line from that port to both ports on top of your Fiero's EVAP charcoal canister that originally hooked up to your stock Fiero engine (use a vac tee).

quote ETC / DBW TB control

That will be getting replaced with a cable-operated throttle body if you want to use a Series 2 PCM...

quote ?????

Boost bypass solenoid. You can hook it up if you want, but I remove these from my swaps. All they do is give the PCM the ability to greatly reduce supercharger boost - which it will do if the auto trans is in reverse gear and during a number of other select driving situations. They usually cause more problems than they are worth so I just remove them. All you need to do is plug the vac line that runs to it from the lower intake manifold. Disconnect the line that runs from it to the boost bypass valve actuator, but don't plug that port on the actuator (leave it open).

quote crank sensor? or cam? one of the either. which ever this is, i didnt see the other.

It's the Cam sensor. The crank sensor is behind the balancer and the connector for that faces the side of the engine the starter is on (which would be the front of the car when installed in the car).

quote CTS

You will need to replace this with the dual output, 3-wire version used in 1997-99 Grand Prix GTP's so you have an output for your Fiero's coolant temp gauge. The 3-wire sender/sensor you need to get also requires a different wiring connector than what's on your harness now.

quote heater core lines? not necessary to connect correct? just loop them into each other?

Depends if you are using a modified Fiero 2.8 T-stat housing on this engine or not. And it also depends if you have an 87-88 Fiero or an 84-86 Fiero.

In my swaps, I use the stock t-stat housing that comes on these engines (not a modified Fiero 2.8 t-stat housing). I run a hose from the top connection you have shown in your picture to the smaller of the two lines that run up to the heater core (should be the one that originally connected to the stock Fiero 2.8 t-stat housing). Now, if you have an 87 or 88 Fiero, the return line from your heater core should already be hooked up to the right side coolant tube. If so, you can use the remaining heater hose connection on the 3800 as a coolant fill point and cap it off once you've filled up the cooling system. I hook a short hose with a 180 deg bend (to allow for some engine movement) to the ones in my swaps and run them to a remove fill point like what I have shown here:



IF you have an 84-86 Fiero, then the return line from the heater core in your car needs to get back to the engine somehow. You can buy a special adapter that goes in-line with your lower radiator hose that will allow you to plumb it in there or you can run the heater return line all the way up to this other port coming out of the alternator bracket on your engine (the lower one shown in your picture). But filling the cooling system with this line in place can be a challenge. In the past, I have hooked up a tee fitting in-line with this return hose and ran another hose to a remote fill point I added, similar to what I showed above...

quote i need to get an AIT sensor. any specific one or will any from any year do?

Did you mean IAT (intake air temp) sensor? If so, you can use one from pretty much any GM car that had an EFI engine. You can even use one from a stock Fiero 2.8.

[/QUOTE]

yea, thats what i ment for the OPS. typo brain fart lol. i have a different iol pressure gauge in the car, and i have the existing sending unit still. so it should be no problem to move that from the LX9 to this motor.

yea, good riddance to that DBW crap. i dont like em

more problems than what i will have.. yea, im disconnecting it.

for the CTS, the L67 harness will have the correct connector right? given i get the 97-99 harness.

im going to make that modded T-stat housing... if i can find one. yea, its an 87. ah ha.. i see. i like that.

yea, IAT. well in that case, im glad i have a few lying around lol.

thanks again darth
------------------
First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 08-09-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: for the CTS, the L67 harness will have the correct connector right? given i get the 97-99 harness.

Depends on the car. If you need to buy a new connector/pigtail for this dual-output sensor, the AC Delco p/n is: PT1825

quote thanks again darth

no prob!

can i get a harness that matches any of those PCM #s listed? or do i need a SC'd specific one?

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: can i get a harness that matches any of those PCM #s listed? or do i need a SC'd specific one?

You can use pretty much any 1998-03 W-body 3800 harness, SC or non-SC. Non-SC harnesses are usually cheaper and easier to find. The only thing you'll need to do for your swap if you get a non-SC harness is change the MAP sensor connector and probably lengthen the wires for it if you want the MAP sensor in a different location than where it is on that harness. The non-SC harness also does not have the wiring for the 2 speed fuel pump controls or the boost bypass solenoid - neither of which I install in the swaps I do so it shouldn't be a concern.

well that greatly opens up my options since those are dime a dozen at the pull a part out here. now that i can search for what car those PCMs and harness's come in, that greatly opens up my options. there are plenty of series II's in pull a part. only actual L67 part ill need now is the MAF and TB. or a 2000+ N*.

Don't want to detract from the thread. Americasfuture2k you have a PM.

lol, good way to get my attention

I have an L32 project waiting for me to do it or skip it. This thread may help me decide.

------------------

Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 5 speed
304rwHP/366rwTQ

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: well that greatly opens up my options since those are dime a dozen at the pull a part out here. now that i can search for what car those PCMs and harness's come in, that greatly opens up my options. there are plenty of series II's in pull a part. only actual L67 part ill need now is the MAF and TB. or a 2000+ N*.

You can also use a 1996-99 Northstar or Aurora V8 throttle body. It has a bolt on MAF housing that uses a similar MAF sensor like the stock L67 TB uses. The stock Fiero throttle cable will work with the stock throttle cable bracket that comes with these 96-99 throttle bodies (Fiero cable will need to be modified slightly). All you will need is an adapter plate and digital cruise cable that matches this throttle body (recommend you get this cable - and possibly grab the whole digital cruise servo when you get the throttle body if you are going to the junkyard). Here's a picture of one I installed on an L32 blower:



Dave @ www.tripleedgeperformance.com made the 96-99 N* TB to L32 blower adapter plate for me. I think he's the only place you can get it from. You can contact him via his website and see if he can get one made for you if you want to go this route vs. using the 2000+ N* TB.

The 2000+ Northstar TB uses an external MAF and different cable hookup system. I don't have any experience with these.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-11-2010).]