I have a vehicle with HID's, and a vehicle with H4's, so I know what both setups are capable of. I'm not willing to pony up the bucks for a "done right" HID conversion. And the H4 setup I have (on a motorcycle) puts out more light than any vehicle I have or have owned (except the HID vehicle). So, I'm interested in an upgrade to my Fiero's headlights, but I'm not really interested in anything that requires fabrication. I'm looking for a bolt on upgrade. My research shows a lot of praise for SilverStars, and for H4's. It seems that people who have had both prefer the H4's, so that would probably be my preference. A sealed beam would be fine too, but it needs to be better than an H4 setup.
you could do a flush mount conversion and then go from there with more affordable bulbs that put out more light. i belive the flush mounts use 93 camaro lights
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02:14 PM
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
OK. Never mind. After doing some MORE research, I found the most popular options.
1) SilverStar sealed beam units. Fairly cheap and a fairly good upgrade. Much better than stock.
2) Hella E-code H4 Conversion Kit http://www.rallylights.com/detail.aspx?ID=744 A little more expensive, but a significant improvement in lighting compared to 1), and a HUGE improvement over stock. And it offers quick & easy bulb changes. Lots of options in H4 bulbs.
3) Truck-lite. P/N 27009 H4 conversion kit. buddycraig's writeup here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...70315-2-075733.html. Slightly cheaper than 2), but headlight buckets must be modified. I couldn't find any direct comparisons to 2), but they both use H4's, so the light output is likely similar.
4) Hella 90mm projectors with Fiero1Fan's custom headlight buckets. Slightly better lighting than 2) or 3), and a MUCH improved appearance on the car. Also quick & easy bulb changes. A LOT more expensive than 2) or 3), and much more labor to install. Needs additional wiring harness.
5) HID's. Even more expensive, and I haven't seen a bolt on solution yet. Every one, so far, is a one of a kind.
6) Flush mounts. Still more expensive, and prone to poor lighting on the sides and in the center, HID or halogen. And ditto on the one of a kind thing.
7) HID's in non-HID reflectors. Not DOT legal. Generates glare for oncoming traffic unless you go to lots of trouble to control the light pattern. Not interested.
I'm going with option 2. Option 4 looks to be the best, cost is no object, bolt on option, and looks REALLY good on the car. Options 5 & 6 offer still better lighting and appearance, but at significant costs. But I'm primarily interested in function, so option 2 wins.
[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 11-16-2010).]
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05:47 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40936 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I had some lights similar to option 2 in a car that I sold a couple of months ago. The housings were made by APC. ("Import tuner" parts section at Autozone.) The lenses were just clear plastic. Didn't have any optics at all.
The hedlight buckets did require some modding (the hole had to be enlarged) but it was quite easy using a jig saw. Took about 30 seconds per side.
The light output was amazing. Much better than the Silverstars in my current car. They were kind of difficult to aim. I annoyed people in front of me until I got it right. Still could see quite well.
I have the Hella H4 kit with 80/100 bulbs and it reallly lights up the road.
Have you driven the car for long periods with the lights on? I'm wondering if the wiring gets hot because the 800/100 bulbs draw more power than the stock lights. I tried a headlight upgrade years ago and melted the headlight bulb connectors.
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10:39 PM
Nov 16th, 2010
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
2) Hella E-code H4 Conversion Kit http://www.rallylights.com/detail.aspx?ID=744 A little more expensive, but a significant improvement in lighting compared to 1), and a HUGE improvement over stock. And it offers quick & easy bulb changes. Lots of options in H4 bulbs.
Excellent choice. See this thread for some beam comparisons previously posted on PFF. I highly recommend that you start with the standard 60/55 Watt H4 bulbs; you can always experiment with higher wattages later. FWIW, use of higher wattage bulbs than standard probably voids any regulatory compliance. See this thread for more discussion.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-16-2010).]
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10:58 AM
Rick 88 Member
Posts: 3914 From: El Paso, TX. Registered: Aug 2001
Have you driven the car for long periods with the lights on? I'm wondering if the wiring gets hot because the 800/100 bulbs draw more power than the stock lights. I tried a headlight upgrade years ago and melted the headlight bulb connectors.
I have used these Hella lights on my car also, and I thought that they were a significant improvement over stock. I also installed the YellowStar bulbs which have a distinctivly yellow color. I thought they worked well especially in rain, snow or fog. In my opinion this is probably your best choice as far as cost/benifit analysis goes
~ Bob.
------------------ "Its nice to be important. Its more important to be nice."
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12:37 AM
James Bond 007 Member
Posts: 8871 From: California.U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2002
Did you have to buy the Headlamp Wiring Harness allso (just the wireing harness seems a bit pricey)?
I'd say "it depends". If you use the standard 60/55W bulbs, I'm sure the stock wiring would be fine. If, like mike-ohio, you go with something like 80/100W, then you're probably pushing it with the stock wiring. If your stock wiring is in good condition, it will probably handle it. If not... if some of the connections are a little iffy, and have too much resistance, that could result in excessive heat and melted connectors. In which case you'd need the new harnesses.
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11:00 AM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
I just did a reverse swap, HIDs to H4. I did the HIDs a while ago on my 86GT and for whatever reason -probably I did it too cheeply- the low beams were near useless, way dimmer, worse than even the stock lamps. Whereas HID enclosures -lamps- could also fit some H4 bulbs I went that route. The H4 high beams are not what the HIDs were, but overall I'm happy. So my vote for a cost effective setup would be the H4s. I'll be going with H4s for my 87GT too.
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08:18 PM
Nov 18th, 2010
zmcdonal Member
Posts: 1679 From: NW, Indiana Registered: Oct 2005
I originally upgraded from regular sealed beams to silverstar sealed beams. While better then stock, they still leave much to be desired as far as looks and performance go. So I was looking for an upgrade. I was originally looking into option 2 that you have listed. But, I loved the low-profile look of option 4.
quote
Originally posted by Formula Owner:
4) Hella 90mm projectors with Fiero1Fan's custom headlight buckets. Slightly better lighting than 2) or 3), and a MUCH improved appearance on the car. Also quick & easy bulb changes. A LOT more expensive than 2) or 3), and much more labor to install. Needs additional wiring harness.
I'm going with option 2. Option 4 looks to be the best, cost is no object, bolt on option, and looks REALLY good on the car. Options 5 & 6 offer still better lighting and appearance, but at significant costs. But I'm primarily interested in function, so option 2 wins.
I saved my money and went with option 4, the Hella 90mm projectors, and I will tell you, I COULD NOT BE HAPPIER. They really are not bad to install, and the wiring is no big deal if only run two at a time. I just made simple harness with no relays or wiring to the battery like Orief has a write-up on. So I wouldn't let the labor and wiring steer you away. Also there is a write-up on here on how to use an HID kit with the 90mm's in case you didn't see that. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/079597.html Which I am still debating as my next upgrade.
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04:29 PM
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
I have the f1f buckets with the 90mm projectors and a harness made by synthesis here on the forums which allows for all 4 lights to be on when running the high beams. It is like driving with aircraft landing lights. It also lights up signs and things on the side of the road well and is really easy on the eyes light wise. Its more expensive but well worth it and its worlds better then stock or any stock replacement I've seen, and it gets rid of the surprised frog look.
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09:58 PM
Nov 30th, 2010
hairballrm Member
Posts: 768 From: Philomath Oregon USA Registered: Nov 2009
You should seriously consider dual Hellas if you do any foul weather night driving. I have failing eyesight and driving my Fiero on rainy nights with stock lights felt unsafe. Keeping the lows burning when you bright up is a huge advantage. Mind you, I have now spent more on my headlights than I paid for my car.
I'm not sure exactly the difference between H4 and what I've got... but I bought these from the Fiero Store many years ago (10+) when they first started selling them, and they are vastly superior than the standard replacement bulbs.
Basically, they replace your headlight bulb with one that has a replaceable bulb. I'd assume you can basically swap out these bulbs for any style of bulb you want without having to replace the entire assembly.
I use these and they were great. Much brighter.
I suppose if you were going to be rally racing, and / or perhaps doing some hard-core driving in the mountains of West Virginia at 3:00am you'd probably want something brighter.
But anyway, these are $69 bucks... and come with new bulbs that are already much brighter than Fiero bulbs.
I'm not a big fan of those sealed beam replacements. A lot of them are cheaply made and suck if you don't know what you're buying. The most simple thing I've found to greatly improve the headlights is to get a pair of the sealed beam silverstar units and realign the headlights. Properly aimed silverstars work great.
Hella's 6054 replacements are great... glass lens and good reflector design. The problem with Silverstars is the short life expectancy... not as big of a deal if the car is not a daily driver though...
I would go further than to call the dual 90mm buckets a slight improvement. If you have to use an 's' word, I would say it is a significant improvement... And the high beams are phenomenal.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-01-2010).]
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09:21 AM
Freshj Member
Posts: 1250 From: Holly, Michigan Registered: Nov 2001
I just did a reverse swap, HIDs to H4. I did the HIDs a while ago on my 86GT and for whatever reason -probably I did it too cheeply- the low beams were near useless, way dimmer, worse than even the stock lamps. Whereas HID enclosures -lamps- could also fit some H4 bulbs I went that route. The H4 high beams are not what the HIDs were, but overall I'm happy. So my vote for a cost effective setup would be the H4s. I'll be going with H4s for my 87GT too.
HID + reflector housings = FAIL. Every time. Most of the light was probably scattering off where you couldn't use it...
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[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-01-2010).]
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09:26 AM
Sep 20th, 2011
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
OK, I'm a great procrastinator. I still haven't pulled the trigger on a set of these, but since winter driving is just around the corner, I'm willing to pull the trigger now. However, when I looked back on this thread, it wasn't clear to me whether I should go with the ECE kit or the DOT.
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: The DOT standards don't allow the beam to sweep upwards forever to the right, and instead requires a flat topped beam to the right, even thought it may be slightly higher than the left. Next, I'll repeat that your 100 watt high beam would void any DOT certification that it may otherwise have carried. Both ECE and DOT standards place upper limits on the amount of light directed upward, to the sides of the road, and near the front of the car.
So does this mean that the ECE or DOT pattern would be better for our cars being operated in the US?
I'm planning on ordering either:
- One of these ECE compliant kits, or - Two of these DOT compliant units
With regard to ECE or DOT patterns. In order to be DOT compliant, headlights are required to reflect light upwards and to the right to illuminate the overhead signs on the highways. ECE headlights DO NOT reflect enough light upward and to the right to be DOT compliant. The ECE headlights focus their light downward onto the road, and as such they tend to appear brighter than the DOT compliant headlights.
The bottom line is that the DOT headlights are 100% legal in the USA. But the ECE headlights do a better of of lighting up the road.
In my state (NJ), the state mandated annual inspection only checks to emissions and the presence of catalytic converters. They don't check the headlights, so I'm running a set of ECE headlights. I know that it is technically illegal, but I like to be able to see clearly even at night, and in the rain. I hope the above info proves helpful. ~ Bob ~
------------------ "Its nice to be important. Its more important to be nice."
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04:44 PM
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
I'm a motorcycle rider, and a bicycle rider. For decades, I've had the policy of safety over legality.
Thanks.
Blinding oncoming drivers is not safety. Projectors with a cutoff shutter are the ONLY safe headlight to use for your retrofit. Save your money and go dual 90mm hellas.
Motorcycle rider for 30+ years and have ridden more than 350,000 miles on a motorcycle. I know safety.
I can vouch for the glass Hella H4 replacements. Mine are the ECE style with fantastic optical quality.
I would never use a low price Chinese plastic housing with china bulbs. They won't last and their optics are terrible. As a low price alternative, consider sealed beam Xtravisions - they are way better than stock and not expensive.
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10:16 AM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
So does this mean that the ECE or DOT pattern would be better for our cars being operated in the US?
I'm planning on ordering either:
- One of these ECE compliant kits, or - Two of these DOT compliant units
Which would be better?
The only significant differences between DOT and ECE compliance is the low beam pattern. The ECE lamps have a flat-topped beam that sweeps up at the right .... kind of a broad V-shape ... while the DOT pattern is flat-topped all the way to the right ... more like a Z shape. In addition, the DOT pattern directs a controlled amount of light up and to the right to illuminate road signs. Most highway signs in Europe are lighted, while those in the U.S. usually are not.
Which would be better? Either would be a vast improvement over the stock H6054 sealed beams. I have had the ECE-compliant Hella HL79567/H6054As on my Fiero for years (the DOT-compliant versions weren't available when I bought them) and they have been fully satisfactory, but I've never evaluated or tested the DOT-compliant version so they might be just as good or even better. If in doubt, I'd just go for the DOT version since they don't have any potential compliance issues in the U.S.
quote
For decades, I've had the policy of safety over legality.
I disagree. With that attitude you are putting your safety ahead of the safety of everybody else on the road. Any DOT-compliant headlight will be "safe" ... and also legal.
quote
Originally posted by timgray:
Blinding oncoming drivers is not safety.
Exactly.
quote
Projectors with a cutoff shutter are the ONLY safe headlight to use for your retrofit.
I strongly disagree, and I have both road experience and experimental data to back up that opinion. Projectors are indeed capable of superior performance, and they are pretty much required for HID installations, but a properly-designed halogen reflector design can provide excellent lighting performance at much lower cost.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-23-2011).]
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10:55 AM
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by timgray: Blinding oncoming drivers is not safety.
I never said otherwise. If you'll notice back toward the beginning of this discussion, I said:
quote
Originally posted by Formula Owner: 7) HID's in non-HID reflectors. Not DOT legal. Generates glare for oncoming traffic unless you go to lots of trouble to control the light pattern. Not interested.
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: I disagree. With that attitude you are putting your safety ahead of the safety of everybody else on the road.
Where did I say that I would sacrifice the safety of others for my safety? The context of my statement was: the safety of an ECE compliant option with more light on the road (with a sharp cutoff to prevent blinding oncoming traffic) vs. a DOT compliant option with more light on road signs (with a sharp cutoff to prevent blinding oncoming traffic). Neither option affects the safety of others. Yes, there are other situations where I'll sacrifice legality for safety, but I won't sacrifice the safety of others.
Both of you, stop implying things I never said.
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02:26 PM
Sep 22nd, 2011
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
OK. Thank you for clarifying that. It must have been the way you worded your original statement that caused two of us to misinterpret it in the same way. To me, it sounded like you were asserting that safety and legality were somehow mutually exclusive. Perhaps I was just reacting to all the previous posts in other threads to the effect that, "Screw legal requirements! Screw other drivers on the road. I'll put whatever headlights on my car I want as long as I think they look cool and provide me with better visibility." To be clear, these are usually the people who are buying HID "conversion" kits with claimed color temperature ratings of 8,000K, 12,000K, 20,000K, or even 30,000K, and plugging them into cheap halogen reflector housings.
In case you missed it, I support the idea of mounting better headlights than the 25 year old OEM sealed beam types ... as long as they substantially improve night visibility and don't compromise safety for me or anyone else. I have done a lot of research and original experimentation on this subject, and I have published my results on PFF for all to see. But in the end, it's your decision. With that, I'll retire from this thread now.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-22-2011).]
Now here is the kicker, everything you can find that is "cheap" I.E. under $200 per headlight will NOT be safe. I had spent nearly $1600.00 over 3+ years in trying different things before I settled on the dual 90mm redesign. anything from ebay is junk, any of them that has a :lens: in the middle is junk.
Every single easy to install retrofit I tried, including the hella H4 retrofit lenses, put a ton of light directly into the eyes of the oncoming drivers. the only way to remedy it was to aim the lamps so far down that you can easily overdrive the headlights at 50mph.
The projector system is the only one I was able to find that does not blind oncoming drivers and sends out enough light far enough to safely drive at 70mph.
And yes, you CAN design a reflector system that works, my Honda Civic does this. but you will never retrofit that into a fiero. not enough depth or width.
If someone has found one that works, I would really like to see the light pattern as shown on a wall and on a long flat roadway using a DSLR set for manual exposure. I was unable to find anything in the H4 retrofits that did not end up making me into one of those jerks that blind everyone else.
[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 09-22-2011).]
Originally posted by Jncomutt: The most simple thing I've found to greatly improve the headlights is to get a pair of the sealed beam silverstar units and realign the headlights. Properly aimed silverstars work great.
+1
If you REALLY want the best "bang-for-the-buck" headlight setup, the Silverstars are without a doubt it. The second point is what is really important as well. One of the real reasons why it is so difficult for Fiero drivers to see, in addition to the age of their headlights, is that they simply aren't properly aimed right. Remember that Fiero headlights go through a tremendous amount of "stress" from opening and closing (they get banged around). Plus they're not exactly "bolted" to the headlight buckets. More like they're "held" in place. Over time, with the banging around caused by opening and closing, it really hurts night vision (on top of the actual light diminish factor from using the lights).
Really one of the best things you can do is buy Silverstars and then simply spend the time to correctly align your headlights. I have the setup in my GT. It's without a doubt been one of the best night driving cars I've had.
Hella sealed-beam conversion kit, hands down. They're the best headlights i've ever seen. They are super bright, and if you pull up to a wall, there's a black line above which the light does not g. They're DOT approved, run about $80 for the pair, and install just loke regular sealed beams.
My 2nd favorite thing about them, besides the light output, is if you cut the back of the buckets just a little more open, you can change the bulbs just by opening the hood, and pulling them right out the back of the fixture without having to remove the housing. Easiest headlights to replace in the world.
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