First page ownage on PFF!!!! =)


Wow..... This is very helpful and cool. I notice you are kind of a neighbor and are located right near my mom's favorite greenhouse.... we should get together sometime and chat. =)

[This message has been edited by LaFierte (edited 03-25-2011).]

That would be great. I have only met one member from this forum so far. I don't get much time away from the shop, but anyone here is more than welcome to come by and check things out/chat anytime. I will be in the shop all day today and tomorrow rebuilding a ford tranny...don't know if this weekend works for you or not? Just shoot me a pm and I'll send you my address if you ever want to stop by.

To update on the project car:
Not much has happened with it in the last couple months as my father had passed away in Febuary and I've been very buisy taking care of the legal documents dealing with his passing.

The last thing I was dealing with on the car was the clutch/flywheel set up. That is all figured out now with the help of Jeremy from spec.
The flywheel: A stock, uncut flywheel for a 99 Camaro V6. Balance matched to a 3800sc flexplate.
The clutch: A kit from Spec with a custom offset disc hub and a throwout bearing spacer.

Originally, I had machine work done to the flywheel to make a custom setup that sandwiched a flexplate and flywheel together. That was determined to be too dangerous to use due to the stacking of rotating components and the danger of the flywheel not enguaging the crank centering flange.

So, I ditched that setup and went with a flywheel only. No stacking. The depth issue I was trying to correct was achieved with the clutch components instead of the flywheel. Spec made a clutch disc with a deeper hub to reach into the bellhousing further. They also made a custom throwout bearing spacer to move the throwout bearing piston deeper into it's bore. This should prevent the HTOB from blowing the piston out from over-travel. There is a link on the first page of this topic that explains in detail the issues I was having with the clutch. Not an issue anymore, thanks to the help from Spec.

It will be some time before I make anymore progress on this car, as I still have my hands full with my fathers passing.

Picked up a set of 09 cobalt ss axles (jack shaft and both axles) They fit the trans correctly. The axle SHAFTS look nice and strong, pretty thick. The jack shaft is a hollow tube but large diameter. The joint ends are about a medium size...only so-so. I think they will hold up to my little old lady driving

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 05-08-2011).]

So are there any mods required to fit the 09 Cobalt axles? Are they plug and play, other than swapping the Fiero outter joints?
Thanks,
Kevin

------------------
85 Fiero-based ASPP GT-40 MarkII. 3800 S/C, Auto, Held suspension all around with 2" drop spindles and sport fr. end. RCC bump-steer correction. Mr. Mike's interior.

Can't say for sure on the outer ends yet, but they plug right into the F40. I will need to fab a hanger bearing bracket for the jack shaft. I thought I read that they plug into the fiero hubs too?

I can say this, they weren't easy to find! Most places selling them only had the standard cobalt axles. It took me a bit of searching to find the cobalt SS axles.

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 05-19-2011).]

So, 1fatcat, were did you find your axles finally? Jack shaft too?

Got the whole set off ebay. The guy sold the set in two different auctions. One auction was for the left axle, the other was for the right axle w/jack shaft still attached. I paid 220 w/shipping in total.

quote Originally posted by CarverToo: So, 1fatcat, were did you find your axles finally? Jack shaft too?

They come up from time to time on ebay... if you can get the full set of 3 for under $300 + shipping that is a pretty good price. You can also purchase them directly from GM as well for about $225 each (total of 3 parts would be around $675+ shipping)

Here are a couple pics of the axles. The very top axle is from a 99 bonneville ssei, just for size comparison. The last pic has the jackshaft removed from the right axle.


So this pic, top to bottom: bonneville ssei axle, cobalt ss left axle, cobalt ss right axle w/jackshaft (jackshaft is not fully snapped into the axle in the pic, because I didn't want to fight to get it back apart again )


This pic, top to bottom: bonneville ssei axle, cobalt ss left axle, cobalt ss right axle, cobalt ss jackshaft

Can you measure the overall length of the jackshaft for me? It looks just like the 9-3/9-5 Saab ones I am modifying and curious if they are indeed the same shaft (just differnet bearing support bracket).

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Can you measure the overall length of the jackshaft for me? It looks just like the 9-3/9-5 Saab ones I am modifying and curious if they are indeed the same shaft (just differnet bearing support bracket).

No problem! I measured it at 17.5" Maybe a few thousandths of an inch longer (.010-.020?), but I would call it 17.5"

Here's an interesting pic for you too. I looked it over for part numbers and found this on the jackshaft bearing bracket. Didn't find any other numbers anywhere.

Just took a look at E-Bay. There's a ton of the CV axles out there. Not all look the same. I expect only the manual transmission ones are of use?

quote Originally posted by CarverToo: Just took a look at E-Bay. There's a ton of the CV axles out there. Not all look the same. I expect only the manual transmission ones are of use?

There are a bunch listed wrong - the eBay "FITS" feature is junk. Many of them say the same axle fits the turbocharged and naturally aspirated 5 speeds and that is wrong. Only the Turbocharged SS (or Saturn Ion Redline - also turbocharged) had the F35 5 speed with the compatible inner tripods (27 spline) for the F40. The naturally aspirated 5 speeds are the F23 and it has axles compatible with a stock fiero getrag (34 spline).

I think the Saab 2.0t and the Cobalt SS half shafts are the same, with same bracket, but the 2.8t Saab has a different bracket; since it's a High Feature V6 instead of the Ecotec.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: There are a bunch listed wrong - the eBay "FITS" feature is junk. Many of them say the same axle fits the turbocharged and naturally aspirated 5 speeds and that is wrong. Only the Turbocharged SS (or Saturn Ion Redline - also turbocharged) had the F35 5 speed with the compatible inner tripods (27 spline) for the F40. The naturally aspirated 5 speeds are the F23 and it has axles compatible with a stock fiero getrag (34 spline).

That was exactly what I found when I was looking for a set. A lot of places were selling the standard cobalt axles and claiming they would fit the SS. You really need to be carefull if your looking for a set. 99% of what I found listed were the standard cobalt axles, but the listing said they would fit the SS....NOT TRUE! Be carefull of what you buy!

Fieroguru, thank you so much for your help and research on this subject! You saved me a ton of money and time! THANK YOU!
Edit: Fieroguru, I think I already gave you a + long ago just because your always so helpfull and friendly, but I just gave you another!

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 05-20-2011).]

1fatcat,

You have a PM

For the 2 Cobalt axles: I get the feeling that the Left and Right shaft are the same from listings I've seen on Rock Auto and Auto Zone?

Except pic shows a spacer/bearing(?) on one of them (to the right).

[/QUOTE]

quote Originally posted by CarverToo: For the 2 Cobalt axles: I get the feeling that the Left and Right shaft are the same from listings I've seen on Rock Auto and Auto Zone? Except pic shows a spacer/bearing(?) on one of them (to the right).

[/QUOTE]

The DS and PS axles are the exact same. The rubber piece on one of them is the seal for the intermediate so the shaft splines on that axle do not rust inside the intermediate shaft.

I finally got around to match balancing my flywheel. I used the stock L67 flex plate, and bolted it to the flywheel with the oblong holes 180* off from each other, then balanced the assembly until I achieved a neutral balance. In theory, this should result in a “mirrored” off-balance of the flex plate put onto the flywheel.

I used 4 bolts, nuts, and spacers to attach the two. Do not use the oblong holes for attaching the two. The spacers are also nuts, just larger nuts so they only act as spacers between the flywheel and flex plate. I then installed a bearing into the flywheel center hole. Part number is: Napa Proformer P6201-2RSJ. “Proformer” is not misspelled, that’s how they spell it. It’s about $5.00 (actually, I installed the bearing first and then bolted the two together).

The bearing is not a press fit, but is very close. So I peened the center hole of the flywheel to create an interference fit for the bearing. I also removed the rubber seals from the bearing to reduce it’s rolling resistance. I then took a bolt, cut the head off and used it with two more nuts to clamp the inner race of the bearing. Then clamped the bolt into a vise…I actually clamped it into a lathe chuck, but a vise will work too.

The assembly will now roll free enough to find the heavy end. At the heavy end, I started drilling holes. I know that sounds sloppy, but I took care to make the holes evenly spaced and drilled small amounts at a time and rechecked the balance often. Also, I was careful not to drill deeper or larger diameters than the stock balance holes, and made sure not to drill too close to the outer edge. I didn’t want to weaken the flywheel. I did the drilling in a drill press, and I would not recommend trying this with a hand drill. Not saying you can’t, just saying I wouldn’t…but then again, if you have a drill press, you wouldn’t use a hand drill either.

I’m pretty happy with the results. It might not be NASCAR specs, but I feel it’s pretty close. I would guess that I removed at least 30 grams to achieve the balance I was after.

Now, some pictures and a short video for your viewing pleasure Sorry the video is so short, but my camera has very little storage.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: The last thing I was dealing with on the car was the clutch/flywheel set up. That is all figured out now with the help of Jeremy from spec. The flywheel: A stock, uncut flywheel for a 99 Camaro V6. Balance matched to a 3800sc flexplate. The clutch: A kit from Spec with a custom offset disc hub and a throwout bearing spacer. Originally, I had machine work done to the flywheel to make a custom setup that sandwiched a flexplate and flywheel together. That was determined to be too dangerous to use due to the stacking of rotating components and the danger of the flywheel not enguaging the crank centering flange. So, I ditched that setup and went with a flywheel only. No stacking. The depth issue I was trying to correct was achieved with the clutch components instead of the flywheel. Spec made a clutch disc with a deeper hub to reach into the bellhousing further. They also made a custom throwout bearing spacer to move the throwout bearing piston deeper into it's bore. This should prevent the HTOB from blowing the piston out from over-travel. There is a link on the first page of this topic that explains in detail the issues I was having with the clutch. Not an issue anymore, thanks to the help from Spec.

In an earlier post, you indicated you wouldn't be stacking flexplate to flywheel. Do I understand there may be issues with the Spec "solution"?

So I was wondering how this latest post/solution helps your situation?

1) The previous post indicates your'd be using a stock, uncut '99 Camaro V6 flywheel - Is that still the case?

2) So you are, in fact, stacking flywheel to flexplate AND adding the bearing to deal with the concerns you had with "the stacking of rotating components and the danger of the flywheel not enguaging the crank centering flange"?

3) The bearing will remain in place for your installation?

Thanks!
Rob

[This message has been edited by CarverToo (edited 06-03-2011).]

Oh, no. I'm not stacking the two to use in the car, just for balancing the flywheel. See, the camaro flywheel is for a naturally asperated 3800 and has a different off-balance than the supercharged 3800. So I stacked the two 1/2 turn opposite of each other, then balanced the assembly until it had a neutral balance. This "should" result (in my simple mind) in the off-balance of the two matching one another.

After the balancing, the flexplate is no longer used for anything. The bearing is just for balancing also, it does not get used in the car.

I have not noticed any new problems with the Spec clutch, I feel that it should work fine.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Oh, no. I'm not stacking the two to use in the car, just for balancing the flywheel. See, the camaro flywheel is for a naturally asperated 3800 and has a different off-balance than the supercharged 3800. So I stacked the two 1/2 turn opposite of each other, then balanced the assembly until it had a neutral balance. This "should" result (in my simple mind) in the off-balance of the two matching one another.

Please excuse my ignorance, I'm not particularly knowledgeable in these kinds of things, but doesn't a standard Fiero 3800 swap involve using the NA 3800 flywheel, machined down to fit in the Fiero tranny? Is there something about the F40 that would require a change of balance on the flywheel?

Edit: Never mind, I'm a moron. With a Fiero transmission, the flywheel does need to be balanced according to the flexplate. Sorry!

[This message has been edited by raccoons (edited 06-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Can't say for sure on the outer ends yet, but they plug right into the F40. I will need to fab a hanger bearing bracket for the jack shaft. I thought I read that they plug into the fiero hubs too?

An update:
The Cobalt SS axles fit the F40 trans properly, but the outer ends are NOT plug and play with the Fiero hubs. I have not taken them apart yet to see if just the ends can be swapped around or not.

Fiero: top
Cobalt: bottom

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: An update: The Cobalt SS axles fit the F40 trans properly, but the outer ends are NOT plug and play with the Fiero hubs. I have not taken them apart yet to see if just the ends can be swapped around or not. Fiero: top Cobalt: bottom

That's weird, this post seems to indicate that the Cobalt SS axles fit into the Fiero knuckles well.

Unfortunately, I've misplaced my spare Fiero axles, so I can't compare them to the Cobalt axles I got myself at the moment.

------------------
My project: 3800 Series III Supercharged + F40 6-speed into an 87 GT. Wish me luck!

quote Originally posted by raccoons: That's weird, this post seems to indicate that the Cobalt SS axles fit into the Fiero knuckles well. Unfortunately, I've misplaced my spare Fiero axles, so I can't compare them to the Cobalt axles I got myself at the moment.

That is weird! I don't know what to say? Are his axles from an SS Cobalt, or non-SS Cobalt? Mine were listed as being from an 09 Cobalt SS.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: That is weird! I don't know what to say? Are his axles from an SS Cobalt, or non-SS Cobalt? Mine were listed as being from an 09 Cobalt SS.

In the second page of that build thread, he posts the following picture of his axles:


I would imagine they're SS axles, as the basic Cobalt didn't use an intermediate shaft. But his axles would have to be from an 05-07 Cobalt SS.

So, my axles are too new? That friggin figures! I bought the wrong parts.

I'll still see if I can swap the outer ends to make them work. I hope so...

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: So, my axles are too new? That friggin figures! I bought the wrong parts. I'll still see if I can swap the outer ends to make them work. I hope so...

Can probally swap out the cage/holder out in the end of the axle to make an outer manuel Fiero CV end fit on the Cobalt axles.....Make sure the outer is a stock unit and aftermarket are smaller and will not fit...

What spine do they have on the bearing end? I assume they are the large 33 vs. the small 33, but they might be 30 as well. I doubt the Cobalt SS would have changed the outboard spline, to do so would have required a new upright, wheel bearings, brake rotors and wheel bolt pattern. It is more likely they sent you the wrong ones. The other axles with the 27 inboard spline are a dime a dozen, but the cobalt SS ones are commanding a premium so they might have sent the wrong ones.

Check the overall compressed length vs this:


Of all the other currently available axles with the 27 inboard splines, the Cobalt SS is the shortest.

You should be able to remove the outer end and swap on a fiero outer... I did that for my G6 axles.

Just a very small update. I think I found a fitting to work as a bleeder port for my hydraulic clutch connection. Sourced from local Napa auto parts store for a few bucks. It wasn't hard to find, I just had not looked until today. Progress is still at a stand still.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: What spine do they have on the bearing end? I assume they are the large 33 vs. the small 33, but they might be 30 as well. I doubt the Cobalt SS would have changed the outboard spline, to do so would have required a new upright, wheel bearings, brake rotors and wheel bolt pattern. It is more likely they sent you the wrong ones. The other axles with the 27 inboard spline are a dime a dozen, but the cobalt SS ones are commanding a premium so they might have sent the wrong ones. Check the overall compressed length vs this: Of all the other currently available axles with the 27 inboard splines, the Cobalt SS is the shortest. You should be able to remove the outer end and swap on a fiero outer... I did that for my G6 axles.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner Fieroguru, but the axles have an outboard spline count of 30 and measure approximately 1.285" diameter on the outer splines. Conpressed lenght is about 24".
It seems that these axles are out of an 09 cobalt SS...the turbo version...rated at 260hp & 260 ft lbs. So aside from the fitment problems, they do seem to be the strongest axles that were ever used in a stock cobalt.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner Fieroguru, but the axles have an outboard spline count of 30 and measure approximately 1.285" diameter on the outer splines. Conpressed lenght is about 24". It seems that these axles are out of an 09 cobalt SS...the turbo version...rated at 260hp & 260 ft lbs. So aside from the fitment problems, they do seem to be the strongest axles that were ever used in a stock cobalt.

That makes the outboard joint the same as the G6 F40 outboard CV joint (they are 30 spline as well). The good news is the star is the same size as the fiero outboard one, so you can swap a fiero CV end onto that axle.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-09-2011).]

So I made a jack shaft hanger bracket and installed a different oil filter adapter, but the passenger side inner axle boot contacts the oil filter...

Turbocharged and supercharged Cobalt SS's have different outboard splines and hubs. It was reqiured to handle the higher ouput of turbocharged engine. This is what I was told by GM performance division engineer at a pre-release discussion in 2008. The axles that will work need to be 05-07, with the supercharged engine, not turbo.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: So I made a jack shaft hanger bracket and installed a different oil filter adapter, but the passenger side inner axle boot contacts the oil filter...

I'm having that problem too. DarthFiero's website shows various other oil filter adapters that will fit: http://www.gmtuners.com/swap/3800.htm (scroll down a bit). The Camaro adapter looks like it should work, I think.

quote Originally posted by FieroWannaBe: Turbocharged and supercharged Cobalt SS's have different outboard splines and hubs.

Yes, but it's the boot on the inboard joint that hits the filter. The inboard joint is actually pretty small and would be in the same location whether you use these axles or the s/c cobalt axles... if using the jack shaft.

I may chop the filter adapter and weld end plates on both halves, then drill and tap the plates to accept threads and relocate the filter with some high temp/high pressure hose.

I rarely post but I've done this swap. I'll assist you any way I can. In order for the cobalt axles to work with this swap is to move the engine & trans 1/2 to 3/4 to the right on the cradle. If you don't the left axle would be too long for the left side and the right wouldn't be long enough causing the boot the be stretched (over extended due to engine not being centered on the cradle for the axles.). the oil filter problem can be solved by a remote filter. you run into another problem with the rear band for the boot on the right side hitting one of the lower bolt for oil filter extension where it bolts to the block. once you get past that you'll be ready to move on to the next obstacle. send me a PM and I'll email some pictures.