So I want to recharge my AC soon since I just put my new engine in. I would like to go with the R12 variety because the air is colder and no retro fitting is needed. However after going to my local shop I hear that it is illegal to buy, sell, or posses any R12 refridgerant. Yet this item is readily availible on eBay at a fairly low price. So I guess my question is "Is it legal and logical to recharge with R12?"
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11:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jan 7th, 2011
86FieroSEv6 Member
Posts: 438 From: Navarre, Florida, USA Registered: Nov 2010
Logical? Hell yes. Legal? Well, only if you're licensed and are using the proper recovery/recycling equipment certified and registered, and the stuff was imported legally into the US with all duties and taxes paid. That having been said, it's pirate's rules . . . . . they can't catch us all! Just one more thing . . . . . a lot of that so called "R-12" is rife with propanes and other hydrocarbons, so be very careful of what you get a hold of . . . . . . kaboooooooooooooooooooooom m m m m
[This message has been edited by 86FieroSEv6 (edited 01-07-2011).]
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12:06 AM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Short answer: Yes. Although it has been illegal to manufacture or import R-12 in the U.S. since 1993, R-12 stockpiles as of 1993 and recycled R-12 are fully legal. I have a local source that currently has several thousand pounds of R-12 in storage ... all 100% legal since it was recycled from a decommissioned industrial air conditioning system. The R-12 in my Fiero came from that source. The retail price of legal R-12 peaked at about $80 a pound several years ago, but has since dropped to below $50 a pound.
It is true that it is illegal to purchase R-12 unless you have an EPA part 609 refrigerant certificate. Even though I hold both EPA 608 and 609 refrigerant certificates, I would be really cautious about purchasing "R-12" on eBay. Scams abound, and you really don't want to pay R-12 prices for propane (which will work but is both dangerous and illegal).
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-07-2011).]
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01:24 AM
TONY_C Member
Posts: 2747 From: North Bellmore, NY 11710 Registered: May 2001
I wouldn't worry about the R-12 being more efficient than the R-134a in a Fiero. Because of the layout of the AC components in a Fiero, it is a fairly large system and that, coupled with a smaller than normal interior space, makes an R-134a conversion work quite well. With a well functioning system you will not notice the difference between R-12 and R-134a and you will save some money too.
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07:45 AM
steve308 Member
Posts: 4029 From: Stafford VA Registered: Jan 2008
Much of the R-12 on e-bay is not "R-12" it's Freeze 12 a blend of 134. It will work ( I use it) BUT once you use it you are "stuck" with a freeze 12 system that is very difficult if not impossible to get a standard shop to work on. Find a shop with a supply of R-12, have them do the recharge after looking for and repairing leaks.
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07:50 AM
BL3200 Member
Posts: 131 From: Harze, Liege, Belgium Registered: Oct 2009
I got the certification after no shop in town said they'd work on an R-12 car, and all wanted $1500+ to convert it over. Getting the EPA Section 609 Certification is ridiculously easy:
I wouldn't worry about the R-12 being more efficient than the R-134a in a Fiero. Because of the layout of the AC components in a Fiero, it is a fairly large system and that, coupled with a smaller than normal interior space, makes an R-134a conversion work quite well. With a well functioning system you will not notice the difference between R-12 and R-134a and you will save some money too.
I had my GT's A/C system recharged with R-12 a few months ago by a old guy who has had an A/C shop for what seems like forever. We talked about R-134a conversions, and he said he's seen many systems in many different cars fail because the components of the system are designed differently. Stuff like the A/C cooler (radiator-part) bursting. I think it has to do with different pressures or something, but he had several reasons why the conversion is not a good idea.
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09:55 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27103 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Much of the R-12 on e-bay is not "R-12" it's Freeze 12 a blend of 134. It will work ( I use it) BUT once you use it you are "stuck" with a freeze 12 system that is very difficult if not impossible to get a standard shop to work on. Find a shop with a supply of R-12, have them do the recharge after looking for and repairing leaks.
Another thing the A/C guy told me was that Freeze 12 is a blend of different gasses, one of them being R-134a, and that if there are any leaks in the system, the lighter gas will leak out first, leaving you with an unknown mixture.
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09:57 AM
TopNotch Member
Posts: 3537 From: Lawrenceville, GA USA Registered: Feb 2009
A conversion to R134, done properly will freeze you out of the car. My converted 88 is cold enough for Georgia summers.
Exactly. The Fiero is a special case. Small cabin, large system, thus holding a large amount of Freon, fairly large condensor which does not have the normal heat load of an engine located directly behind it either all ass up to a very efficient system. And GM (harrison/Frigidaire) components were very good quality as well.
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10:21 AM
PFF
System Bot
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
We talked about R-134a conversions, and he said he's seen many systems in many different cars fail because the components of the system are designed differently. Stuff like the A/C cooler (radiator-part) bursting. I think it has to do with different pressures or something ...
At 130 F (typical condenser temperature under summer conditions) the saturation pressure of R-12 is 181 psi, while the pressure of R-134a is 199 psi. Since the setpoint of the OEM high pressure cutoff switch in Fieros is about 260 psi, the rest of the system should be designed for operating pressures at least that high. R-134a alone will not cause the condenser to "burst."
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... the A/C guy told me was that Freeze 12 is a blend of different gasses, one of them being R-134a, and that if there are any leaks in the system, the lighter gas will leak out first, leaving you with an unknown mixture.
That is correct. According to the EPA, Freeze 12 is a mixture of 80% R-134a and 20% R-142b. There is nothing wrong with using EPA-approved refrigerant mixtures, but most such blends (called "zeotropes") have three characteristics that have to be considered:
1) They don't have a single boiling point for a given pressure, but rather a range of boiling points. As you indicated, when there is a leak one component of a blend will leak faster than the other, which changes the composition (and thus the properties) of the mixture remaining in the system.
2) As a result, in case of a small leak you can't just top off the system. You have to recover the all of the old refrigerant and recharge with new, and you can't reuse the old refrigerant because its composition is now unknown.
3) For the same reasons, charging must be done in the liquid, rather than vapor, phase in order to preserve the proper blend proportions.
quote
Originally posted by steve308:
Freeze 12 ... will work ... BUT once you use it you are "stuck" with a freeze 12 system that is very difficult if not impossible to get a standard shop to work on.
That's an excellent point. Most shops will refuse to work on anything but R-12 and R-134a systems. The EPA requires different service fittings and labeling for each type of refrigerant, and it requires shops to maintain totally separate equipment (including separate hoses and separate manifold gauge sets) for each refrigerant they handle.
It gets even worse. If you just charge Freeze 12 (or any other alternative refrigerant) into an R-12 system and don't change the service fittings and label the system correctly, then YOU become financially responsible if you later take it to a shop and their equipment becomes contaminated. That can be VERY expensive ... proper disposal of contaminated refrigerant, decontamination of equipment, etc.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-07-2011).]
JUST A SIDE NOTE . PROPANE WILL FUNCTION IN AN R-12 SYSTEM . IT HAS THE SAME BOILING / CONDESNSING TEMPS. , SPECIFIC HEAT , SPECIFIC GRAVITY , OIL COMPATABLITY (MINERAL) . BTU'S OF HEAT WHEN EVAPORATED .THERE TALKING ABOUT USING HYDROCARBON BASED REFRIGERANTS IN EUROPE SOON
So I want to recharge my AC soon since I just put my new engine in. I would like to go with the R12 variety because the air is colder and no retro fitting is needed. However after going to my local shop I hear that it is illegal to buy, sell, or posses any R12 refridgerant. Yet this item is readily availible on eBay at a fairly low price. So I guess my question is "Is it legal and logical to recharge with R12?"
The shop you talked to lied to you hard. You can get R12 recharged in a car, I have done it recently (2 years ago) you need to find a shop that deals with older cars or classic cars. The one you went to is ran by guys that barely know what they are doing, I'd avoid them for anything at all.
R12 is illegal to MANUFACTURE in the united states. you can still get R12 cars refilled, you just will not like the price from a Michigan shop. It cost about $325.00 for 12 ounces, they can rob you blind because the legal sources are dwindling.
What EPA said and what DOT/NHTSA said ARE different.
USEPA allow many kinds of things included hydrocarbons. Refrigerant Application doesn't mater to them. Walk in cooler, central air, etc, up to maker of item to decide. Propanes, etc, has an R number assign. BUT DOT/NHTSA bans anything with hydrocarbons in the mix! NHTSA allows R12 and R134a.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
The Fed's Significant New Alternatives Program (S.N.A.P.) only considered the proposed compounds based on their friendliness to the air. There was never any consideration given to performance. Your tax dollars at work.
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10:35 PM
Jan 8th, 2011
30+mpg Member
Posts: 4061 From: Russellville, AR Registered: Feb 2002
tomsablon:JUST A SIDE NOTE . PROPANE WILL FUNCTION IN AN R-12 SYSTEM . IT HAS THE SAME BOILING / CONDESNSING TEMPS. , SPECIFIC HEAT , SPECIFIC GRAVITY , OIL COMPATABLITY (MINERAL) . BTU'S OF HEAT WHEN EVAPORATED .THERE TALKING ABOUT USING HYDROCARBON BASED REFRIGERANTS IN EUROPE SOON
EXCEPT THAT IS FLAMMABLE !!!!!!!!
Gee, gasoline seems to be FLAMMABLE!!!!!!!!!! as well. Most people don't have non-cost reservations about putting lots of that into their vehicles.
Buy a Leaf and avoid all of this...
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12:21 AM
sportcoupe Member
Posts: 329 From: Savannah, GA Registered: Oct 2010
Gee, gasoline seems to be FLAMMABLE!!!!!!!!!! as well. Most people don't have non-cost reservations about putting lots of that into their vehicles.
Buy a Leaf and avoid all of this...
But you don't have gasoline in the passenger compartment. That's where the problem comes in with refrigerants. They are behind the dash (evaporator) and if a leak occurred when using a hydrocarbon refrigerant a fire or explosion could result.
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08:27 AM
FreakyFastFiero Member
Posts: 225 From: Michigan, USA Registered: Aug 2009
Old AC system designed for R12 probably doesnt work properly on propane. If you like hazard and want to try, butane is better and easy, makes about 60-70% of original R12 coolin power, IMO enough (but I didnt try this on desert ). And is very "green", safe for system, for oil and compresor (R134a kills old system, sooner than later, without heavy retrofit - oil and sealing suffer first, next dryer, next compressor). But if you prefer dont think how big fireball will be in accident with pound or two of liquid butane or propane - start lookin for retrofit media, R409A or similar. These mixes are much better for safety than propane/butane, and much better for old system (for mineral oil) than R134a, or any mix with R134a.
Just my observations.....If a car came with R12, I want to keep it R12. Doing a conversion to 134 prob works in a Fiero because of the size. One of my Corvettes with R12 got the 134 conversion by a shop because R12 was like over $100 @ pnd at that time. It never was as cool as it was before. My Firebird, Magnum, Astro, all with 134 never get cold....only cool. I bought the Magnum new and it never was cold and checks at dealer showed it was working correctly. I just rolled the windows down in the summer. Im betting when it gets hot here again, the new Caddy with dual AC units prob wont be cold. I also wouldnt use alternative coolants at all.
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05:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
Boni Member
Posts: 114 From: Grodzisk Maz. Poland Registered: Dec 2010
All true, but one thing - the R12 is not legal here anymore, even recharged, 6 or 7 years ago I saw last bottles, no legal anyway. Some day it will be no choice in US too, only retrofit or mixes. I dont recommend retrofit, and have not any car retrofited, too expensive and too much damaged compressors I saw and you probably right, its less cooling on old R12 system after retrofit. R409A worked fine on one my car, but is expensive, double price as R134a here.
Ralph Nader types: Do NOT read the reply posted below.
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FreakyFastFiero:So has anyone ever used propane? I'd give it a try. If I wanted a safe car I wouldn't have a Fiero
Has and am using R290 in both my Fieros, for years. No O-Zone holes. I can get 17Lbs for $14. Cools better than R12.
BTW My black 2M4 got hit in the front last year. Didn't loose any refrigerant until I had to remove the condenser to have replacement frame metal welded in.
[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 01-08-2011).]
Do a search.... post for Fire with alt Refrigerant in here somewhere. also Try youtube. Ban refrigerant + pressure + leaking hose = Big Fire in engine area. Ban refrigerant in cabin + Dumb Demonstrator = Explosion He was sure it was safe.... He was trying to change laws...
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
To clarify, by "here" I presume you mean Poland. As I posted earlier, "here" in the U.S. R-12 from pre-1993 stockpiles and R-12 recovered and recycled since 1993 is completely legal per the Montreal Protocol and U.S. law. Only the manufacture of new R-12 or import of R-12 is prohibited. See my earlier post in this thread.
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02:24 AM
Boni Member
Posts: 114 From: Grodzisk Maz. Poland Registered: Dec 2010
Ive nevr heard R12 is illegal to use, just illegal to have or install without a permit. What do they do when you drive into the state with an older car with R12, give you a ticket or impound your car because it has R12 ????
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11:34 AM
steve308 Member
Posts: 4029 From: Stafford VA Registered: Jan 2008
This a perfect example of why we neet the FAQ section along with HEADLIGHTS won't come up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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11:46 AM
gmctyphoon1992 Member
Posts: 693 From: Lighthouse Pt, Florida Registered: Jun 2010
Ive nevr heard R12 is illegal to use, just illegal to have or install without a permit. What do they do when you drive into the state with an older car with R12, give you a ticket or impound your car because it has R12 ????
Here in PL nobody investigate on R12 in your car, BUT all CFCs systems are banned since 2004 AFAIK (other hand, all legal problems with different equipment from different states are covered by United Nations Convention on Road Traffic, 1968 Vienna. Or they should be ). There are no bottles, no serivce in any legal AC shop (except retrofit - they should suck out R12 with certified tools and certified personel, and sent to utilization). And about use - car is only car, but in industry I know nobody with CFCs system, all were retrofitted or scraped. You know, in industry goverment inspection works, and they could easy convince you to retrofit with proper ticket...
Just my observations.....If a car came with R12, I want to keep it R12. Doing a conversion to 134 prob works in a Fiero because of the size. One of my Corvettes with R12 got the 134 conversion by a shop because R12 was like over $100 @ pnd at that time. It never was as cool as it was before. My Firebird, Magnum, Astro, all with 134 never get cold....only cool. I bought the Magnum new and it never was cold and checks at dealer showed it was working correctly. I just rolled the windows down in the summer. Im betting when it gets hot here again, the new Caddy with dual AC units prob wont be cold. I also wouldn't use alternative coolants at all.
I vied that with a variable orifice. My 2007 honda civic had AC that was horrible except on the highway. Was told that is normal. went to a friend that runs a Shop and he upgraded the orifice in my AC system with a "variable" orifice valve type and now it blows Ice cold all the time... Idling or at highway speeds. He said most cars dont have them because the part is 8X more expensive than the regular one.
When I decide to fix my AC in my fiero, I'm going to have it all cleaned out and replaced with 134 parts to not worry about it anymore.
Very true, good workshop or specialist could fix or retrofit near anything in AC and cooling, often with reasonable price. F.e there are rare problems with retrofit R12 with mixes like R409A, on systems with flooded evaporator - but good specialist know the issue, and retrofit evaporator too, not only expansion device. But mediocre workshop makes mediocre retrofit, if good enough in all...
Lets say I can aquire some propane to put into the system. I figure I will recharge now and let the car sit until the warmer months then see if AC is cold. If so, I know that the system does not leak a lot. But how do I get propane into the R12 system? I have the R134a adaptors availble to put on if I so need.
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11:41 PM
Jan 12th, 2011
luckynumber5 Junior Member
Posts: 3 From: Johnson City, TN Registered: Sep 2010
Dont use propane, check out envirosafe refrigerants. I have a 10lb cylinder of HC-12 in my garage Ive been using for a while on my vehicles. Works very well in my 93 Sidekick (old r12 system.) On 134 it would get nice and cold after a while on the road but would never get cool sitting still, after I tried the HC-12 mix it would get cool sitting still and very cold while moving.
). And is very "green", safe for system, for oil and compresor (R134a kills old system, sooner than later, without heavy retrofit - oil and sealing suffer first, next dryer, next compressor). But if you prefer dont think how big fireball will be in accident with pound or two of liquid butane or propane - start lookin for retrofit media, R409A or similar. These mixes are much better for safety than propane/butane, and much better for old system (for mineral oil) than R134a, or any mix with R134a.
