yea ive never heard that rattling either. people just beat their fieros too much just put syncromesh in mine, definitely had 5w30 before. guess we'll find out when my new one is running

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: To me it seems the problem is that they run ball bearings to support the input shaft.

LOL... except that they don't.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Your from my state. Bring me the car or tranny and I WILL make it quiet. I can't do it for free, but my labor rate is only $50/hr. I won't do it with fluids, I'll find the noisy part and replace it.

Tough talk. Are you going to hard chrome the input shaft inner race until it's up to size? Install balanced bias springs on the reverse gear?
It's easy to say "things are out of tolerance" without knowing what is out of tolerance, what the tolerance is, how much it's out and how it got that way... much less how to fix it.

If you measured the backlash in the gears, would you even know what a good number is? If you don't like the number you measure, how do you change it?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Yeah my bad, the TSB was not the F40 but the F23, but they are very similar. They are all "getrags" of a sort, so the same fix for heavier fluid is probably appropriate for the 282 and the F40.

Well, they are Getrags, because Getrag, the transmission company, designed them. Depending on where they are actually manufactured and assembled, they may have different tolerances and other manufacturing details, which might require different fluids. And may result in noises occurring in different situations. The TSB you pasted mentions the rattling only in 1st or 2nd gear, for the fix of using the 21018899 fluid. It mentions 2 separate noises in the summary, but only one is listed in what you pasted. I don't know if you omitted it, or if it was omitted from where you copied it from, though. It may actually be more relevant to the 282, but we can't say without knowing what it is.

There was also a rattle in the 06 G6 F40-MT2 that a lot of owners complained about. From what I have read, there seem to be some minor design/build changes in the 07+ F40-MU9 transmissions, which may eliminate this noise. Such fix is not applicable to the 282 however, but does provide another example of how there can be a wide variance of 'noises' one might hear from a manual transmission.

quote Originally posted by Will: ...Are you going to hard chrome the input shaft inner race until it's up to size? Install balanced bias springs on the reverse gear? It's easy to say "things are out of tolerance" without knowing what is out of tolerance, what the tolerance is, how much it's out and how it got that way... much less how to fix it.If you measured the backlash in the gears, would you even know what a good number is? If you don't like the number you measure, how do you change it?

I'm curious to hear your opinion further, are these possible causes, and were they manufacturer defects if some people had the noise from new?

I have some synthetic synchromesh on order and will change my fluid when it arrives. I don't know what is in this car alerady for fluid as I just purchased it, but the previous owner did not service it himself, he frequented a local mechanic shop chain.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Well, they are Getrags, because Getrag, the transmission company, designed them. Depending on where they are actually manufactured and assembled, they may have different tolerances and other manufacturing details, which might require different fluids. And may result in noises occurring in different situations. The TSB you pasted mentions the rattling only in 1st or 2nd gear, for the fix of using the 21018899 fluid. It mentions 2 separate noises in the summary, but only one is listed in what you pasted. I don't know if you omitted it, or if it was omitted from where you copied it from, though. It may actually be more relevant to the 282, but we can't say without knowing what it is. There was also a rattle in the 06 G6 F40-MT2 that a lot of owners complained about. From what I have read, there seem to be some minor design/build changes in the 07+ F40-MU9 transmissions, which may eliminate this noise. Such fix is not applicable to the 282 however, but does provide another example of how there can be a wide variance of 'noises' one might hear from a manual transmission.

That Saturn forum post didn't have anything on sound number 2 posted, but I saw somewhere else, that noise number 2 is normal and can't be eliminated.

I have the F40 which is why I took the subject slightly off topic, but since the F40 and the F23 are "getrag" designs technically it is on topic, although the OP was talking specifically about the 282.

Edit - From a SAAB forum the general consensus is that the F40 rattle is due to regular flywheel in place of the dual mass flywheel. I have no doubt that is true as this has been stated on PFF as well.

http://www.saabcentral.com/...ex.php/t-186254.html

But it wouldn't surprise me if GM cooked up a special batch of gear oil to quiet down noisy transmissions in general due to customer complaints.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-27-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Tough talk. Are you going to hard chrome the input shaft inner race until it's up to size? Install balanced bias springs on the reverse gear? It's easy to say "things are out of tolerance" without knowing what is out of tolerance, what the tolerance is, how much it's out and how it got that way... much less how to fix it. If you measured the backlash in the gears, would you even know what a good number is? If you don't like the number you measure, how do you change it?

Beings you don't know me or my background, I can see why you might want to question my knowledge and skills. The first thing I would do is inspect the shaft for damage or wear. If it was not useable (which I highly doubt for this complaint), I would try to locate a new or good, used shaft. As for any springs, they are seldom bad and can usually be reused. If needed, I would locate new or good, used springs. The way you word it sounds like you might be refering to something non-stock, because there are no springs on the reverse gear. As for tolerances, certain components do have measurable and specified tolerances. Other components do not have published tolerance specifications. This is where experience comes into play. You need to know what your looking at, how to judge it's condition and how to fully inspect the component. I'm not sure if there's a magic number of years that makes a person qualified to do this or not, but I'm currently at 20 years of hands-on experience in the field of mechanical repair. That's approximately 40,000 hours of experience, so I think I must be close at least?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: That Saturn forum post didn't have anything on sound number 2 posted, but I saw somewhere else, that noise number 2 is normal and can't be eliminated. I have the F40 which is why I took the subject slightly off topic, but since the F40 and the F23 are "getrag" designs technically it is on topic, although the OP was talking specifically about the 282. Edit - From a SAAB forum the general consensus is that the F40 rattle is due to regular flywheel in place of the dual mass flywheel. I have no doubt that is true as this has been stated on PFF as well. http://www.saabcentral.com/...ex.php/t-186254.html But it wouldn't surprise me if GM cooked up a special batch of gear oil to quiet down noisy transmissions in general due to customer complaints.

Right. The way the dual mass flywheel is built, helps to absorb some of the engine vibration from going to the trans. Switching to a lightened custom flywheel will definitely make any noise more pronounced if one exists. I have also seen on the G6 forums where people were complaining about stock cars with rattles right off the lot, or which may have developed shortly thereafter. As mentioned on the Wikipedia article, GM also changed the detent in the MU9, which probably helps with reducing any noise that comes back through the shifter itself, as well.

Switching to heavier oil might mask any smaller noises for a while, but over time they will become more pronounced as well. AFAIK, the only way to get rid of any noise for much longer time is to rebuild the transmission to proper fitment as new. And if one's transmission is loud enough to be terribly annoying, it probably needs rebuilt or replaced. Thicker oil might help dampen the sound, but it's more masking the problem, than fixing it.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Switching to heavier oil might mask any smaller noises for a while, but over time they will become more pronounced as well. AFAIK, the only way to get rid of any noise for much longer time is to rebuild the transmission to proper fitment as new. And if one's transmission is loud enough to be terribly annoying, it probably needs rebuilt or replaced. Thicker oil might help dampen the sound, but it's more masking the problem, than fixing it.

This last part does not apply to the F40 as some of them are noisy right off the lot especially with a lightweight custom flywheel. Mine was a zero mile tranny when I bought it, so rebuilding is not going to help much if at all.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: To me it seems the problem is that they run ball bearings to support the input shaft.

quote Originally posted by Will:LOL... except that they don't.

That sure looks like a sealed ball bearing on the back side of the input shaft. And straight roller bearings on the input side of it.

The only place they use tapered roller bearings are in the differential



----
EDIT

Here is what the manual says "The input shaft is supported by a roller bearing in the clutch and differential housing and a ball bearing in the transmission case."

Hmm So I guess it is supported by a ball bearing/roller bearing and no tapered roller bearings that you can shim the clearances out of.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: That sure looks like a sealed ball bearing on the back side of the input shaft. And straight roller bearings on the input side of it. The only place they use tapered roller bearings are in the differential http://i299.photobucket.com...cie282RebuildKit.jpg ---- EDIT Here is what the manual says "The input shaft is supported by a roller bearing in the clutch and differential housing and a ball bearing in the transmission case." Hmm So I guess it is supported by a ball bearing/roller bearing and no tapered roller bearings that you can shim the clearances out of.

The sealed bearing on the input shaft takes the entire axial load from the mesh in any gear.
The sealed bearing on the output takes the difference between the input axial load and the differential axial load.

If those bearings were loose or worn, the transmission would make noise all the time, and the noise would be louder with load. Out of the Getrags I have disassembled, none of those sealed bearings showed any signs of wear (IE, feeling the motion, listening with a stethoscope, etc).

S

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Beings you don't know me or my background, I can see why you might want to question my knowledge and skills. The first thing I would do is inspect the shaft for damage or wear. If it was not useable (which I highly doubt for this complaint), I would try to locate a new or good, used shaft. As for any springs, they are seldom bad and can usually be reused. If needed, I would locate new or good, used springs. The way you word it sounds like you might be refering to something non-stock, because there are no springs on the reverse gear. As for tolerances, certain components do have measurable and specified tolerances. Other components do not have published tolerance specifications. This is where experience comes into play. You need to know what your looking at, how to judge it's condition and how to fully inspect the component. I'm not sure if there's a magic number of years that makes a person qualified to do this or not, but I'm currently at 20 years of hands-on experience in the field of mechanical repair. That's approximately 40,000 hours of experience, so I think I must be close at least?

I work on spacecraft. In the specific failure review board for a current problem, we have over 50 years of combined experience tracking down a PIM source in the RF path of this satellite. It's been four days of continuous testing and we can't localize it.

Experience helps, but isn't everything.

So to elaborate on my previous questions... If you find a dimension (gear backlash, for the sake of argument) that's within spec, yet responsible for the noise, what do you do to it? Cut a new gear from scratch?

My point is this: You don't know what compromises Getrag or GM made between the design and manufacture of these transmissions. While the rattle may not be a "design feature", it may be "built in" by the tolerances, which were in turn driven by the manufacturing process. It could be *extremely* difficult to root out and claiming a-priori that you can absolutely get it done no matter what smacks of hubris.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-29-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Will: My point is this: You don't know what compromises Getrag or GM made between the design and manufacture of these transmissions. While the rattle may not be a "design feature", it may be "built in" by the tolerances, which were in turn driven by the manufacturing process. It could be *extremely* difficult to root out and claiming a-priori that you can absolutely get it done no matter what smacks of hubris.

I think you are right. I saw a recent post on the J -body forum that says GM made another fix to quiet the rattle on the F23 and maybe made things worse.

http://www.j-body.org/forum...f=41&i=47442&t=47351

quote Originally posted by Will: I work on spacecraft.

Good luck with that. Next time I need a saturn V rocket repaired, I'll look you up. Until then, I'll just go with my training and experience with manual transmissions.

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 04-30-2011).]

Good luck with any rattling Getrags you get!

It's normal and a non-issue that is detrimental to the life of the transmission. It is only the slack in the gears, that was designed into the product. ALL Ford Rangers in the 93+ with 4 banger rattled from factory. Just the quircks of the designs.

Hz and .mm have absolutely nothing in common whatsoever and you both know it. The paths of troubleshooting however are identical.

Not sure why someone would brag about their experience, I have worked in both shipyards and the maritime satellite industries, but can relate one to the other in some way shape or form. I don't find myself arguing with myself.

"I would like to agree with you but then we would both be wrong." works for me.

quote Originally posted by Will: The sealed bearing on the input shaft takes the entire axial load from the mesh in any gear. The sealed bearing on the output takes the difference between the input axial load and the differential axial load. If those bearings were loose or worn, the transmission would make noise all the time, and the noise would be louder with load. Out of the Getrags I have disassembled, none of those sealed bearings showed any signs of wear (IE, feeling the motion, listening with a stethoscope, etc).

So now you are saying you took apart the transmission, listened to the sealed ball bearing that you didn't think was a ball bearing with a stethoscope and by using that you determined that it can't be the cause of the noise.

Hmm

quote Originally posted by Benja: It's normal and a non-issue that is detrimental to the life of the transmission. It is only the slack in the gears, that was designed into the product. ALL Ford Rangers in the 93+ with 4 banger rattled from factory. Just the quircks of the designs.

While that is good news many cars do not have it, cars that rolled off the same assembly line. If replacing the transmission is what it takes to make it go away then I will live with it. But I am open to other options. Just hioping to keep the brains storming

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-03-2011).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: So now you are saying you took apart the transmission, listened to the sealed ball bearing that you didn't think was a ball bearing with a stethoscope and by using that you determined that it can't be the cause of the noise. Hmm

It's a *sealed* bearing. It could be a chipmunk bearing instead of a ball bearing...
But that is correct. Of the ones I've taken apart the sealed bearings didn't feel or sound like anything but new.

Also, the sealed bearings take significant axial loading at WOT. The idea that they make noise because they can't take axial loading is preposterous.

quote Originally posted by Will: It's a *sealed* bearing. It could be a chipmunk bearing instead of a ball bearing... But that is correct. Of the ones I've taken apart the sealed bearings didn't feel or sound like anything but new. Also, the sealed bearings take significant axial loading at WOT. The idea that they make noise because they can't take axial loading is preposterous.

By using two tapered roller bearings you are able to control the end play of the shaft. By using one ball bearing that receives axial load only under through put load, that would mean there is no axial bearing load when there is no throughput load. So with no axial load the bearing is free to rattle. That is when you are having the 'rattle' problem correct?

It's not an issue that they can't take some axial load, it's that in neutral they have no axial load.

edit

So the fact that the bearing is sealed would mean whatever you are using for transmission lubrication won't make any difference in the rattle right?
----
Edit
So this problem basically happens in neutral correct? Looking at the input shaft you have the support bearings of the input shaft, the needle bearings of the gears located on the input shaft that aren't engaged, and the 5th gearset, the 5th gear output gear and it's needle bearings turning. Any time any of the gears are not engaged, there isn't a substantial load on those gears. So if the rattle was from the unloaded 5th gearset, wouldn't you have that rattle all the time unless the transmission was in 5th gear? If the rattle was coming from any of the other roller bearings wouldn't that noise happen all the time unless the transmission was in that particular gear? What is different to the rotating masses that are in neutral that only occurs in neutral?

All I can come up with it the ball bearing is not loaded and that allows the bearing to be the sole device to control axial play.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 05-03-2011).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: So this problem basically happens in neutral correct?

Correct in my car’s case. The car is in neutral and the clutch pedal is up and it is clackin’.
If the clutch pedal is down there is no noise.
Idling in a gear down the road I notice no noise.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: While that is good news many cars do not have it, cars that rolled off the same assembly line. If replacing the transmission is what it takes to make it go away then I will live with it. But I am open to other options. Just hioping to keep the brains storming

You should have said "many Fieros" and yes, you are correct. However it will eventually happen. My Ranger was brand new and rattled. My neighbors didn't rattle until after 50k, but nevertheless it started. I suppose it's fractions of an inch difference in the machining that determines when/if it rattles. We're talking about a CHEAP "sports" car, and a GM nonetheless. (double whammy) Japanese tolerances were much tighter then. Nowadays all mfg's are working with extremely tight and accurate tolerances, hence 0W30.

Bearings will not cause this scenario.

quote Originally posted by Benja: We're talking about a CHEAP "sports" car, and a GM nonetheless. (double whammy) Japanese tolerances were much tighter then. Nowadays all mfg's are working with extremely tight and accurate tolerances, hence 0W30.

That is not quite true. Of all the (many) manual transmission GM cars I've ever driven, 1 had transmission rattle. And it was a severely beaten 2.2L S-10.

Of all the (3) manual transmission Hondas I've ever been in, 2 have had severe trans rattles. One I didn't even drive, because I wasn't interested in buying it, because it was way too ricey. I suspect it had the same problem the trans in the other one I did drive though. Third gear was going out.

The Mini Cooper I used to have did not have any rattling problems either.

So far in my experience, the GM cars win here. Also, the 5 speed on the 4 cylinder Fieros was Japanese anyway. And the Getrag is a German design, even if it was manufactured in Indiana.

I don't think the rattling issues here haave anything to do with being designed to do that. And without knowing the entire driving history of the trans in question, or tearing it open; everyone is just making assumptions. If you don't want to rebuild the trans to proper specs, and don't want to just replace it, only option is to change the oil in it, and hope it helps muffle the sound a bit.

quote Originally posted by Benja: You should have said "many Fieros" and yes, you are correct. However it will eventually happen. My Ranger was brand new and rattled. My neighbors didn't rattle until after 50k, but nevertheless it started. Bearings will not cause this scenario.

But then there are these reports:

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I use some variant of Synchromesh fluid and my transmission doesn't rattle even after 180,000 miles.

IN THE DESIGN OF THE OBJECT.

Not a 200k mile honda trans.

Synthetic is a wonderful invention. Hides many things, including things that don't matter.

[This message has been edited by Benja (edited 05-03-2011).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: I don't think the rattling issues here haave anything to do with being designed to do that. And without knowing the entire driving history of the trans in question, or tearing it open; everyone is just making assumptions. If you don't want to rebuild the trans to proper specs, and don't want to just replace it, only option is to change the oil in it, and hope it helps muffle the sound a bit.

I know what you mean about not seeing it or knowing driving history. But people have rebuilt to proper spec and they still rattled.

quote Originally posted by Benja: IN THE DESIGN OF THE OBJECT. Not a 200k mile honda trans. Synthetic is a wonderful invention. Hides many things, including things that don't matter.

Well my 100K mile Getrag still doesn't rattle. I'm pretty sure it has original fluid in it still. And 200K miles should be nothing for a Honda with their superior build quality, right?

It doesn't matter how many miles are on it. There were reports of issues off the line with some of the new G6 with F40 trans, but we aren't talking about those here. Or Ford rangers. And I don't think the issues in the Fiero Getrags with rattling are because of the design of an object in the trans. If it were, then ALL of them would rattle. So it's clearly not that.

The Hondas I drove that rattled horribly weren't rattling because they had 200K miles on them. They were rattling because they previous owners of them beat the piss out of them. The ones I drove without rattles, didn't have the piss beat out of them. That goes the same for the GMs as well as the Hondas. So trying to argue about design, mileage, etc... is pointless.

Is rattling a common problem in manual transmissions all across the board? Yes.
Is it because the transmission is designed to rattle? No.

It is a commonly known issue found in many different vehicles.

It will not kill you.

It is audibly annoying.

There is no known permanent fix.

There are claims of syn oil helping.

Nobody knows why it does it.

It may make girls look at your car more.

There is nothing objectionable or debatable in this post.

The Getrag in my 3.4 turbo car rattles but I have figured out a couple things that people might find useful.

History:
The trans is from an 88 and was swapped into my 86 an unknown length of time before the new engine.

Mileage is totally unknown but probably high.

It does shift well although first can be stiff from a stop.

I drive it very hard, hey thats what I built the car for! I do not drop the clutch but I shift fast and hard.

I have Amsoil Synchromesh in the tranny currently and it rattles at idle with the clutch out.

Here is what I have figured out. If it is rattling and annoying me. If I push the clutch in then let it out very slowly most of the time it will not rattle. Only if the clutch is let out fast. The car can idle and the rattling does not seem to come back until the next time I throw it in neutral and take my foot off the clutch.

I am not worried about it, it seems normal and with the life my tranny lives if its the worst that goes wrong I will be a happy camper!

quote Originally posted by Benja: It is a commonly known issue found in many different vehicles. It will not kill you. It is audibly annoying. There is no known permanent fix. There are claims of syn oil helping. Nobody knows why it does it. It may make girls look at your car more. There is nothing objectionable or debatable in this post.

Ha, yeah... but I don't want people, including girls looking at my car any thinking "what the heck is wrong with that!"

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: By using two tapered roller bearings you are able to control the end play of the shaft. By using one ball bearing that receives axial load only under through put load, that would mean there is no axial bearing load when there is no throughput load. So with no axial load the bearing is free to rattle. That is when you are having the 'rattle' problem correct? It's not an issue that they can't take some axial load, it's that in neutral they have no axial load. All I can come up with it the ball bearing is not loaded and that allows the bearing to be the sole device to control axial play.

You've clearly never worked with one.
And what you said about lubrication is correct... irrelevant to the sealed bearings.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: On a T5 input shaft you have a tapered roller bearing in the engine side of the input shaft.

282 =/= T5

quote Originally posted by dobey: Is it because the transmission is designed to rattle? No.

You know the difference between a bug and a feature, right?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-04-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Will: You know the difference between a bug and a feature, right?

It would be a design flaw, or assembly flaw, or something along those lines that would be the bug. Which is what we are hoping to do something about. To me it is nice to hear different people's input, I hope people post their thoughts, regardless of the egos around here, or whether they picked an unsual way to phase something.

quote Originally posted by Will: You know the difference between a bug and a feature, right?

Yes, but I'm pretty sure the Getrag was not "designed" to make noise. It was designed to transmit energy through a series of gears being moved on a couple shafts. Some of the specified tolerances for the transmission to function optimally may be a range, where when the fitment is more toward the higher end of that range, could cause the rattling noise to occur. But they will still be acceptable for quality control checks. Some transmissions may have even made it through quality control with fitment outside the tolerance range, and may be more suscepitable to emitting such noises. But I wouldn't call those a designed feature. There could be many other reasons for noise to occur, including alloy content being off in a batch of gears that went to the plant for assembly; that could cause increased vibration in the transmission. Probably not part of the design, either.

However, I would say that the transmission was designed such that in such cases of rattling noise in neutral gear, it would not result in failures.

It's sort of like a web browser; you wouldn't want it to just crash and burn every time a web page failed to load, would you? Could be a bug somewhere, but it is handled gracefully. The handling of the failure is the feature, not the failure itself.

Who in their right mind would think someone would design a trans to rattle?

I suppose I should have chosen my words more wisely to avoid the semantically objectionable.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Some of the specified tolerances for the transmission to function optimally may be a range,...

You're *almost* there...

What do you think it *costs* to reduce the production variance such that only one trans in a million rattles?

Well, ...a big negativo.. on the Redline fluid. I changed it, started the car and it was not rattley, until it warmed up, then same old neutral rattle.

Redline MTL
"Recommended for GL-1, GL-3, and GL-4 applications, as well as where most special synchromesh fluids are specified
Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage
Offers quicker shifts, perfect synchronizer coefficient of friction "

Now someone with a rattle switch to Royal Purple and we can rule them all out

Somewhere earlier in the thread, someone mentioned gear lash as a possible cause for the infamous "getrag rattle". I think that's worth looking into. Maybe we could have owners check in with the amount of perceived gear lash in the transmission, and whether or not it rattles at idle. Here's an example:

The FWD Getrag in my Fiero (from an '88 Beretta) was rebuilt by ManTrans, but still rattles in Neutral. It also has Pennzoil Synchromesh fluid in it. But the transmission has noticeable gear lash. For example, I can't coast in 1st or 2nd gear, because the car will start to lurch, thanks to the slop in the gears. To keep the car from lurching, I have to keep the tranny gears loaded, either by accelerating or decelerating.

I should probably also mention that my Getrag is attached to a 3.4 V6 with a lumpy cam and an aluminum flywheel. So the engine is probably dumping a lot of vibration into the transmission.