While reading I noticed that 100% of people who say they run redline synthetic lube (75W-80 GL-4)?, don’t have the noise. Do you think switching to it after one has the noise would make it quieter? Maybe upping the idle a little somehow would help?

--
“On numerous Getrag 5 speeds, they are noisy unless your clutch is depressed. The noise sounds usually like a bag of marbles rattling around inside the transmission”

“Gear chatter- This is when there is plenty of vibration in the transmission area the Gears that are not engaged are vibrating against their mate ,This is not a problem Most big trucks with big gears do this ,its a consequence of having huge gears to handle the capacity (BMWs with v10 always do this). The noise is more when there is a miss in the engine creating a vibration .

Cluster Gear end play- The trans was assembled or there is wear that it now has end-play in the cluster gear assembly rather then preload as it should have.
--


"depressing the clutch pedal should eliminate the noise - Nothing inside the trans should be turning when the clutch pedal is depressed .

If you accelerate in neutral it should also be less noise - the gears dont have time to vibrate back and forth since they are being pushed to spin. I would say when the gears are between being accelerated and decelerated that you would hear it more (at low speeds close to Idle).
To understand it better think of one set of gears (first gear for example)
when in neutral the input shaft is spinning and also spining first gear in the cluster assembly . The input shaft has the power of the engine but the gear being spun in the cluster does not have any load so it spins up and catches the gear that spun it ,and as it bounces it resonates while spinning . This does not happen when it has a load on it .”

---------a different noise? :
“I used to have the birds in the tranny problem, here is how I fixed it:

Changed the fulcrum and release fork, and made sure to grease them properly when I put them back on. This usually happens with age, as the fulcrum begins to become very slightly offround, Allowing the shift fork to not be at the right angle when the clutch isn't depressed, making it come slightly close to the pressure plate, resulting in the TOB rattling around. I diagnosed this problem with one of those fiber optic cameras, and watch the TOB rattle around. “

Found on a Mitsu 3000GT forum, Getrag in a different car but still a getrag:
http://www.3si.org/forum/f3...getrag-noisy-251154/

Another forum:
“It seems to be an official statement from GM.
Diagnosis for Noise #2
This noise, commonly referred to as gear rattle, ... While the noise is occurring, if you press lightly on the clutch pedal without releasing the clutch, the noise will be reduced or eliminated.

Repair for Noise #2
Do not attempt to repair this noise. This is a characteristic of the vehicle and any vehicle equipped with a manual transmission can be made to make a similar noise. Driving at slightly higher engine RPM levels will reduce this noise.”
http://www.j-body.org/forum...i=24710&t=24710&p=22
---
+1 for increase idle rpm I guess....

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Can we run "B&M Trick Shift Synthetic ATF fluid (Grey bottle)" in our getrags? It seems some folk have had results from that.

I wouldn't. You should use Synchromesh. Pennzoil or Royal Purple seem to be what most people go with. The RP is supposedly better, but more expensive. Pennzoil you can find at AutoZone or Advance.

Or replace the throw out bearing.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Or replace the throw out bearing.

New TO bearings don't fix this problem, multiple people have replaced it in their getrags along with other parts and it just comes back.

http://www.3si.org/forum/f3...getrag-noisy-251154/

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-22-2011).]

Can you just run heavier weight trans oil? Maybe throw a bottle of that lucas additive in? A lot of parts stores have it in a gear display where you rotate the gears to see how the lucas additive sticks to the gears and the regular oil runs right off. I've never used it, so I'm not sure if the synchronizers will work properly with it, but I think they would. I could have sworn it says on the bottle that it can be used in manual transmissions. If it has an undersired effect on the synchro's, you can just drain it and try something else.

I read somewhere on the internet that you can run Buttermilk in your transmission and it will make your car faster and get better mileage. You should do that.

Or, use what GM says to use - Synchromesh.
I use some variant of Synchromesh fluid and my transmission doesn't rattle even after 180,000 miles.
(I've used GM, Pennzoil and Royal Purple versions and all performed well)

Just because someone with a different car and a different transmission that happens to be a "Getrag" design doesn't mean what works for them will work for you.
That's like saying you should run diesel in your Fiero because it works so well in your Duramax Suburban.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's like saying you should run diesel in your Fiero because it works so well in your Duramax Suburban.

Really?

You probably have never even seen the inside of a transmission, let alone know much about what lubrication you can use in them. Did you know that your precious synchromesh didn't even come out until well after the end of Fiero production? What did they use back then? Was it buttermilk?

Manufacturers run more fluids than you can imaging in their manuals. From gear lube, to engine oil, to automatic transmission fluid. There's nothing special or fancy about a getrag, the only possible problem you could have by running a thicker, heavier weight oil is the shifting may be stiff when it's really cold. Probably wouldn't be driving a Fiero when it's that cold, but if you are and If it's stiff and you don't like it, then just change back to synchromesh. It won't hurt anything to go thicker. If you went with a thinner lube, then you might have problems.

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 04-22-2011).]

I was lucky enough to purchase a basically new Fiero Getrag that was removed from a front damaged GT that had only 300 original miles. Even with a Getrag with this little wear you can still hear the "rattle" It is just a characteristic of the gearbox. C5 Corvettes with the 6 speed manual make the same noise. Nothing to worry about.

My car had the rattle from when it was new. Pontiac dealer claimed
it was normal. Maybe normal for pontiac, never have had that on any
other vehicle.

I developed the same rattle in my '85 GT 4sp immediately after replacing the clutch, pressure plate, and to bearing. Depressing the clutch in mine makes the rattle go away just like you posted. Gone about 3000 miles this way so far, so at least it hasn't wrecked my car or anything. I'd certainly like to find a remidy to this too, as it's pretty embarrasing sitting at a stoplight and your car sounds all rickety.

quote Originally posted by fiamma: My car had the rattle from when it was new. Pontiac dealer claimed it was normal. Maybe normal for pontiac, never have had that on any other vehicle.

It is normal in a lot of vehicles. Granted, I've never had my Fiero trans rattle, and the one in my Cruze doesn't either, nor did the one in my MIni. However, my S-10 rattled like crazy. Lots of people have complained about trans rattle in manuals on pretty much every car forum there is. In fact, searching for trans rattle on Google, yields 1.76 million results.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Did you know that your precious synchromesh didn't even come out until well after the end of Fiero production?

Not true

I have never driven a Getrag Fiero, but I do know two different Muncie 4-speed's has nothing of the sort. No rattle at all, so I wonder if its really loose tolerances or just a certain type design or configuration.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Did you know that your precious synchromesh didn't even come out until well after the end of Fiero production?

Let's see...
I'm 54. I was hearing about Synchromesh before I was old enough to drive.

Hmmm.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Really? You probably have never even seen the inside of a transmission, let alone know much about what lubrication you can use in them. Did you know that your precious synchromesh didn't even come out until well after the end of Fiero production? What did they use back then? Was it buttermilk? Manufacturers run more fluids than you can imaging in their manuals. From gear lube, to engine oil, to automatic transmission fluid. There's nothing special or fancy about a getrag, the only possible problem you could have by running a thicker, heavier weight oil is the shifting may be stiff when it's really cold. Probably wouldn't be driving a Fiero when it's that cold, but if you are and If it's stiff and you don't like it, then just change back to synchromesh. It won't hurt anything to go thicker. If you went with a thinner lube, then you might have problems.

You are mistaken, as others have already pointed out.
The initial post is referring to 75W-80 GL-4 which is GEAR OIL. The Muncie/Getrag 5-speed used in Fieros does not use GEAR OIL. It can use engine oil, as originally listed in the owner's manual, or Synchromesh as GM later recommended. You could even get away with running ATF, but I wouldn't do it. Gear Oil is much too thick.

"Getrag" covers a wide range of transmissions, and they don't all use the same fluid, so suggesting just because it has the name Getrag associated with it you can use the fluid recommended in something else with the name Getrag on it is just about the same as running diesel in a gas engined car because another GM vehicle uses diesel.

Using the improper lubricant can do damage to your vehicle. Trying to act like you know what you're talking about when you don't does anyone who reads your posts a disservice.
The difference between Synchromesh and Gear Oil is not like going from 30W to 40W engine oil.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: "Getrag" covers a wide range of transmissions

That is true! Getrag does, because it is a transmission company based out of Germany (See http://www.getrag.de/ ) they built the Getrags in a Muncie plant, though. the Actual transmission name is Muncie Getrag 282, or just Getrag 282. The one in our Fieros is the Getrag 282 MG2, while the ones in the 2.0L Turbo Pontiac and Buick cars are an MG1. I am unsure how long they made the Getrag 282 MG2, Getrags on newer vehicles most likely arent 282s anymore, but based off of them, or just very close!

Also about the lubes, Heavyweight oil has a problem in cars with tighter tolerances (the gears are tightly meshed) that the oil actually would cause high resistance, reduce power, and even push out of the way, wear out the thrust bushings, and the like. running too light will make spash lubrication not effective, thus ATF most likely is too light, for it is not designed for it. Syncromesh Fluid most likely has the best additives. I hope my new Getrag doesnt have the chatter... if it does I will do research on fixing the problem, if it really is a problem or just a minor annoyance :P

I'm sorry guys, but you need to check your facts. Synchromesh fluid did not exist until after the fiero was discontinued. That picture of a service manual has to be a revised version. Just check your owners manuals, mine clearly states to use 5w-30 engine oil. As for hearing the term synchromesh years ago, that was probably refering to the synchromesh design of gears...not the fluid. The fluid was named after the gear design. I want to say it was in the 90's that synchromesh fluid came to existance.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12345349/

Amongst all the silliness of using ATF (too thin) or gear oil (too thick) in transmissions, I am mostly seeing people swearing by the GM fluid. And these are people on Honda forums saying it helps with the notchiness that Hondas tend to develop going into 3rd gear at high RPM. And one guy on a Ford forum. And I was actually looking for info on the history of the synchro-specific fluid development.

I never suggested using ATF or gear lube, those were just examples of what lots of manuals use. I suggested a heavier oil or an additive. And by additive, I didn't mean fill the trans with it. There should be instructions on the bottle telling you how much additive to add. Thats why they call it an additive.

So as far as what I'm suggesting by heavier oil, an example would be straight 30 weight engine oil, or 15w-40, or maybe a 20w-50? I don't really know, thats where experimentation would be needed. But I can tell you that any of those three will not harm the components inside the transmission. Obviously, if someone tries it and is not happy with it for whatever reason, just drain it and put synchromesh back in. These types of oils will not harm the tranmission components.

This whole discussion is about gear clatter noise. One way to reduce or eliminate it is by using a heavier lube that can better cushion the parts from slapping against each other.

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 04-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: That picture of a service manual has to be a revised version.

The picture is from a 1988 book composed before the 88 Fieros actually went into production. That's why it also mentions electro-hydraulic power steering fluid. They were planning to introduce that in 1988 Fieros, but canceled it because they couldn't work out all the bugs.

I was wondering about additives too, but don't know what is "ok". Would an additive with moly in it help? Is there a conventional syncromesh vs. high end synthetic synchromesh maybe?

As for different getrags in different cars, I guess the common bond is they seem to have the potential to be noisey. What is unusual is some folks never had a problem, and some folks did, same car, same trans, same fluid. Must just be poor tolerances at the build factory or something. But either way that doesn't matter to me too much.

I am hoping to fire up the brainstorming again on what can be done at the point where peoples trans are already making noise. Since it seems to be shown that replacing parts does not fix it, and is expensive to do.

Any thoughts on idle rpm increase? Thanks all

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I was wondering about additives too, but don't know what is "ok". Would an additive with moly in it help? Is there a conventional syncromesh vs. high end synthetic synchromesh maybe?

If you're running synchromesh already, you don't need the additives, as synchromesh blends already include the additives you'd be adding. If you're running with the Pennzoil synchromesh, perhaps replacing it with the GM Performance, Royal Purple, or Amsoil synchromesh blends would help. If you've just got straight 5w-30 in it now, I'd switch to the synchromesh, and just go straight to one of those 3 higher end blends.

And changing the TOB or input shaft seal wouldn't fix it, since that isn't where the vibration is coming from. To fix it solid, you'd need to tear the whole trans apart, and rebuild the gear clusters, perhaps replacing some of the more worn gears, ensuring everything is fit properly snug and to the right tolerances.

quote Originally posted by Racing_Master: That is true! Getrag does, because it is a transmission company based out of Germany (See http://www.getrag.de/ ) they built the Getrags in a Muncie plant, though. the Actual transmission name is Muncie Getrag 282, or just Getrag 282. The one in our Fieros is the Getrag 282 MG2, while the ones in the 2.0L Turbo Pontiac and Buick cars are an MG1. I am unsure how long they made the Getrag 282 MG2, Getrags on newer vehicles most likely arent 282s anymore, but based off of them, or just very close!

My 87 GT has had the noise since I've owned it (5 years and driving from 103K to 146K miles). The previous owners ran Mobil1 in the transmission. Two years ago, I changed it to Pennzoil Synchromesh. I didn't notice any change in the noise, but it shifted smoother. Both of the Shelby Chargers and the Shelby Daytona I owned had Chrysler transmissions with the gear sets made by Getrag. They used ATF and also made noise with the engine running, tranny in neutral and the clutch released. IMHO I believe it's due to the close tolerances that the gear sets are manufactured to meet.

I just got back from the parts store and I took a look at the lucas additive. Say's on the bottle "quiets noisy engines and gear boxes" "smoothes shifting" "For light duty manuals, add 25% of total capacity, for heavy duty manuals and 50% of total capacity" "NHRA approved".

In the gear display, it has 20% added.

I'm telling you guys, this stuff won't hurt your tranny. I really wish someone would trust me and try it, but I understand the concern. I would try it myself, but my trans doesn't rattle and I think it's the wrong trans anyways.

Good luck guys. (not being sarcastic, I really hope you find a fix) (I wouldn't like an elevated idle, just saying)

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: I just got back from the parts store and I took a look at the lucas additive. Say's on the bottle "quiets noisy engines and gear boxes" "smoothes shifting" "For light duty manuals, add 25% of total capacity, for heavy duty manuals and 50% of total capacity" "NHRA approved". In the gear display, it has 20% added. I'm telling you guys, this stuff won't hurt your tranny. I really wish someone would trust me and try it, but I understand the concern. I would try it myself, but my trans doesn't rattle and I think it's the wrong trans anyways. Good luck guys. (not being sarcastic, I really hope you find a fix) (I wouldn't like an elevated idle, just saying)

The Lucas oil additive is fine. I would start with going to synchromesh blend, and if it is still a bit noisy, add the 20-25% Lucas additive. My trans doesn't rattle either, so no point in me trying it. I would stay away from ATF or straight gear oil though.

Also, the "heavy duty manuals" label on the bottle isn't talking about an HD version of a passenger car trans. It means manual transmissions in heavy duty pickups or tractor trailors or farm/excavation equipment. So don't go adding 50% to a Fiero 5 speed.

Would Amzoil be the top synchromesh performer then? Also is all synchromesh the same viscosity?
Just drain the old and add the new? This will be on a Formula with 76k miles.

It seems conclusive from the responses and posts I have found on other sources, that no one has ever silenced a getrrag once it became noisey.

To me it seems the problem is that they run ball bearings to support the input shaft. Tapered roller bearings can be set up to reduce the tolerances thus reducing noise. Ball bearings don't do well with substantial side loads. Tapered roller bearings do. Now if there were someway to put tapered roller bearings in the transmission, and then shim them to eliminate the slack, I think you could eliminate the noise.

The T5 in my Mustang is designed to use tapered roller bearings shimmed to reduce the clearances.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 04-25-2011).]

I recently rebuilt my getrag 5 spd. myself. I replaced all bearings and took the shafts apart to replace the blocker rings as well and inspected for damage to any of the gears which all looked fine.

When I reassembled the trans I noticed that when I spun the input shaft on by hand it had a rattle to it. Oddly enough when I tilted the trans to sit at a 45 degree angle from how it sits in the car (one axle higher than the other) it got exponentially louder. I could hold the trans, spin the shaft and change the noise just by tilting it. I came to believe the noise was coming from the reverse gear, it kind of sits there and if it spins freely it will make a rattle noise, when I tilted my trans the gear would move enough to spin with the shafts but not enough to engage and that was causing the noise. When I put the trans in the car I filled it with brand new synchromesh and started the car. The noise was completely gone , didnt matter what I did I couldnt hear the noise at all.

Just something to think about.

-Joe

EDIT: oh and when I had the trans out, and engaged it in reverse the noise completely went away no matter what I did. That was what led me to believe it was the reverse gear.

[This message has been edited by joesfiero (edited 04-25-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: It seems conclusive from the responses and posts I have found on other sources, that no one has ever silenced a getrrag once it became noisey.

Your from my state. Bring me the car or tranny and I WILL make it quiet. I can't do it for free, but my labor rate is only $50/hr. I won't do it with fluids, I'll find the noisy part and replace it.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You are mistaken, as others have already pointed out. The initial post is referring to 75W-80 GL-4 which is GEAR OIL. The Muncie/Getrag 5-speed used in Fieros does not use GEAR OIL. It can use engine oil, as originally listed in the owner's manual, or Synchromesh as GM later recommended. You could even get away with running ATF, but I wouldn't do it. Gear Oil is much too thick.

this is slightly off topic, but my F-40 rattles like it has marbles in it too. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has syncromesh in it, and I'm wondering if it shouldn't have gear oil instead? I know it's unreliable, but the wikipedia link for the F-40 says it uses 75W-85 GL-4 gear oil. Just sayin'...

quote Originally posted by jscott1: this is slightly off topic, but my F-40 rattles like it has marbles in it too. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has syncromesh in it, and I'm wondering if it shouldn't have gear oil instead? I know it's unreliable, but the wikipedia link for the F-40 says it uses 75W-85 GL-4 gear oil. Just sayin'...

Some transmissions use gear oil, others use ATF, others use engine oil. It all has to do with the tolerances inside of the transmission. If your F-40 calls for 75W-85, use that

quote Originally posted by Racing_Master: If your F-40 calls for 75W-85, use that

I don't think I noticed that recommendation until now. I can see I need to add synthetic gear oil to my shopping list. Thanks.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: this is slightly off topic, but my F-40 rattles like it has marbles in it too. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has syncromesh in it, and I'm wondering if it shouldn't have gear oil instead? I know it's unreliable, but the wikipedia link for the F-40 says it uses 75W-85 GL-4 gear oil. Just sayin'...

The owner manual I found for the G6 here, says it should use GM Part No. 21018899 Manual Transmission Fluid.

I don't know what blend that fluid actually is, but it doesn't match what the Wikipedia article says. Not sure I'd trust the Wikipedia article here.

quote Originally posted by dobey: The owner manual I found for the G6 here, says it should use GM Part No. 21018899 Manual Transmission Fluid. I don't know what blend that fluid actually is, but it doesn't match what the Wikipedia article says. Not sure I'd trust the Wikipedia article here.

GM released a TSB that changed the oil used in the F40 to address the rattle. I don't know if 21018899 cross references to gear oil or not, but as long as you put in what the manufacturer recommends you should not go wrong...

quote Here is the TSB; Document ID# 854232 Subject: Grinding/Rattle Type Noise Coming From Transmission (Diagnose and Perform Repair) #02-07-29-001 - (01/28/2002) Models: 2000-02 Chevrolet Cavalier 2001-02 Oldsmobile Alero 2000-02 Pontiac Sunfire 2001-02 Pontiac Grand Am with Manual Transmission (RPO M86 or M94) Condition Some customers may comment on a grinding or rattle type noise coming from the transmission. The noise usually occurs with the transmission in first or second gear at low RPMs and can be intermittent. Cause This condition may be originated by the natural harmonics of the engine that leads to a vibration in the transmission. Correction There are two separate noises. Follow the diagnostic procedures listed below to determine which noise the vehicle has and perform the outlined repair. If you are comparing like vehicles, you must compare vehicles with the same motor and similar mileage. Diagnosis for Noise #1 This is a very distinct noise that is usually much louder than the second noise that can be associated with this transmission. If the vehicle is not making any noise when trying to verify the condition, it can be induced by making several tight left hand circles with the vehicle at normal operating temperature. Making a sharp right hand turn will usually stop the noise. While the noise is occurring, in order to distinguish between the two noises, you can press lightly on the clutch pedal without releasing the clutch and the noise will NOT go away or change. As a second diagnostic aid, while the vehicle is making the noise, shift to third gear and the noise will stop. If the noise is determined to be this type, perform the repair for noise #1. Repair for Noise #1 Replace the transmission fluid with Saturn Manual Transmission Lubricant, P/N 21018899. Overfill to a capacity of 2.4L (2.6 qts). A possible side effect of this repair may be a higher shift effort.

Hrmm. That TSB is not for the F40, and mentions using the fluid part # I posted.

The Saturn forum thread seems to suggest that part number was replaced by 88862472 at some point, and one comment says it is a GL4 fluid, but I can't find any more info on it. Found one place selling it, with no picture or additional info, for about $18/qt. Seems it is supposedly thinner than the older fluid, but has a higher viscosity rating.

Some more info on what exactly it is would be useful. It might work well for those having rattle issues in the 282 trans too.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Hrmm. That TSB is not for the F40, and mentions using the fluid part # I posted..

Yeah my bad, the TSB was not the F40 but the F23, but they are very similar. They are all "getrags" of a sort, so the same fix for heavier fluid is probably appropriate for the 282 and the F40.