quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: IMO the returnless idea is not the best one. There are a few speculations as to why gm started doing this returnless fuel idea, and all of the ones I know where not preformance based. The issue with this system in high flow situations, IE larger injectors, there is a burst of needed fuel when you drop the pedal, due to AE (acceleration enrichment), and the returnless system is proven to create a spike of low fuel pressure during this time. Also IMO the biggest problem with the returnless is this fact. Lets say your at a racetrack, you just did a burnout, then pulled up to the lights. The guy next to you takes his time, and your idleing using very little fuel. That fuel not being used is sitting in the fuel rail being heated up to over twice or three times the temperature than what would be noticed in a return system, as fuel is constantly moving through the rail. The returnless system also acts like an intercooler for the rail, keeping it well below actual engine temperatures. Now in your case, the returnless idea is a good one due to the complications of setting the fuel rail system up as you need to with the IC, i mostly posted that information for people looking to do it on stock swaps. There are a ton of pink wires all over the car that get ignition voltage, just because it says "ignition" doesnt mean you have to go poking around the actual ignition area. My idea would be to tap into the injector power wires in the center console.

The point is well taken but consider this view. The return type fuel rail is constantly sending heated fuel back to the gas tank. Eventually the temperature of the gasoline in the tank rises. If the fuel heats up in the rail while the engine is idling waiting for a race, a few seconds of an open throttle will get cool fuel into the rail and through the injectors. So both systems have their drawbacks. According to Ryan at Sinister; he disected the returnless rail and found that it has some kind of internal heat baffle.Ive never cut a retunless rail aprt but this baffle must be put there for a good reason

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Asuming fairly controlled conditions, I think the "gas tank overall temperature" change would be very minimal between a return and a returnless system.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Asuming fairly controlled conditions, I think the "gas tank overall temperature" change would be very minimal between a return and a returnless system.

Not so, resently one of my EVAP lines got clogged resulting in my turbo pressurizing the fuel tank. When the top was removed a nice burst of pretty well heated fumes came out which leads to another reason of probably several that resulted in the returnless system, fumes! Cooler gas, fewer fumes to evaporate in to the atmosphere when the gas cap is removed. Some of the later engines also have a small heat shield on the rail.

Well, I got a few more things done today and I've still got a few to do to finish up the front. Here's the latest shot. The test fit was so good that I'm keeping it there.

Time for a weekend update...

I did manage to try to fit the 4cyl A/C lines to the 3800 Compressor, but found two things wrong. One, the bends in the lines hit the firewall and wouldn't allow me to get a good fit at the compressor. Two, the lines were a bit long which may work themselves out when I get a good fit on the compressor - picts coming once I get more parts for the A/C system.

I'm almost done with the fuel lines. I got the return line setup and connected the fuel rails to the hoses I bought. I then tested for leaks with my air compressor and a -6AN fitting that has a valve stem in it so I can apply air pressure to the system. A couple of the injectors needed tweaking to get a good seal at 100psi, but there still seems to be a small leak around the FPR (not sure what from just yet, but I think I'm going to have to work on that once I get the battery connected so I can test with the fuel pump.



I started on the exhaust, I only got the down pipe and cat installed, having some fitting issues with the Flowmaster I bought (that thing is heavier than I expected). I only tacked up the cat and will do the same with the muffler once I get it in place - then I'm going to take it to someone I know to have it TIG welded.





I also wanted to get a quick picture of the evap canister I'll be using (it included the solenoid on the can), and where I'll be installing it. For the ease of vacuum plumbing, I'm going to mount it just below the expansion fume tank in the right wheel housing. The GM part number for this canister is: #17092109. Someone please confirm my assumed vacuum connections because the three vacuum lines are labeled "Purge" (connected to LIM), "Tank" (to expansion tank), and "Air" (to TB).

Is that your catalytic converter right below the manifold? I've never seen one like that. Can you give us some more info on it?

On my 1990 Suburban the ports on the cannister are as follows - Purge goes to throttle body, Tank goes to fuel tank vent, Air is pretty much open to the atmosphere (there's a little cap of some sort that keeps bugs out).

quote Originally posted by John Boelte: Is that your catalytic converter right below the manifold? I've never seen one like that. Can you give us some more info on it? On my 1990 Suburban the ports on the cannister are as follows - Purge goes to throttle body, Tank goes to fuel tank vent, Air is pretty much open to the atmosphere (there's a little cap of some sort that keeps bugs out).

This is exactly what I got: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...mZ130129947427QQrdZ1. If the link is broken, search ebay for 3" Catalytic Converter High Flow Stainless Steel or seller performance-curve.

Thanks for the info on the canister. + for you.

quote Originally posted by grsychckn: I also wanted to get a quick picture of the evap canister I'll be using (it included the solenoid on the can), and where I'll be installing it. For the ease of vacuum plumbing, I'm going to mount it just below the expansion fume tank in the right wheel housing. The GM part number for this canister is: #17092109. Someone please confirm my assumed vacuum connections because the three vacuum lines are labeled "Purge" (connected to LIM), "Tank" (to expansion tank), and "Air" (to TB).

if this helps heres what I did when I mounted it in the same place:

[This message has been edited by Back On Holiday (edited 07-09-2007).]

Thanks BackOnHoliday - I'll use your pictures to help. I've been checking your build thread often for updates as well - I love it.

I don't remember, did you have to cut your trunk to get your exhaust to fit? Whatever I do with my exhaust, I'd like to avoid cutting the trunk out.

quote Originally posted by John Boelte: I don't remember, did you have to cut your trunk to get your exhaust to fit? Whatever I do with my exhaust, I'd like to avoid cutting the trunk out.

I definitely had to cut the trunk to get both a cat and the muffler in. Some modification of the trunk is necessary when using TOG or SLP headers. I've read somewhere where people have managed to just dent in the trunk a bit so they can route their exhaust, but here in Virginia I needed a cat and wanted the muffler, so no options for me with my TOGs.

Remember when you cut your trunk, your really only making it about 1/3 smaller than it is in full size.

Very Nice job. May I ask how you repositioned the 3800SC tensioner arm up (that was near the old alternator position.) I low mounted the alternator and now when I route the belt over the tensioner to the A/C pulley the belt hits the top of the water pump pulley. It doesn't not appear that these tensioner arms are easily removed from the bracket and repositioned. The arm on my series III is held in place by a strange type of flat nut. Can it be removed and located in a new position? This one is going to take some time to figure out It seems that another tenison may be needed to route the belt higher over the water pump pulley unless it can be repositioned.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Very Nice job. May I ask how you repositioned the 3800SC tensioner arm up (that was near the old alternator position.) I low mounted the alternator and now when I route the belt over the tensioner to the A/C pulley the belt hits the top of the water pump pulley. It doesn't not appear that these tensioner arms are easily removed from the bracket and repositioned. The arm on my series III is held in place by a strange type of flat nut. Can it be removed and located in a new position? This one is going to take some time to figure out It seems that another tenison may be needed to route the belt higher over the water pump pulley unless it can be repositioned.

I had fun doing mine, I ended up taking out the spring, and cut a "keyway" in the tensioner housing. The keyway accepts a peice of metal that is held in by a large hose clamp. It looks sorta funny, but it was really easy to do, and works VERY well, way better than I thought it would. I say it worked better than I thought, because I haven't killed a belt on this swap yet, which has happend on some of my other swaps due to limited grip on some parts of the accessory drive.

we look like brothers!

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Very Nice job. May I ask how you repositioned the 3800SC tensioner arm up (that was near the old alternator position.) I low mounted the alternator and now when I route the belt over the tensioner to the A/C pulley the belt hits the top of the water pump pulley. It doesn't not appear that these tensioner arms are easily removed from the bracket and repositioned. The arm on my series III is held in place by a strange type of flat nut. Can it be removed and located in a new position? This one is going to take some time to figure out It seems that another tenison may be needed to route the belt higher over the water pump pulley unless it can be repositioned.

I'm not quite sure how the Series II differs from the Series III with respect to the alternator tensioners. I do know that I didn't use the stock tensioner, but had to buy one that was designed for a V-6 Ford Taurus. I might still have the product number at home - I'll try to get it tonight.

no, 3/4 german and the rest mixed up of british isle desendants.

my wife said earlier, you look like me when we got married and I wasnt so plump

my wife said earlier, you look like me when we got married and I wasnt so plump


wow I've never heard this type of comment before... Its almost like getting kicked in the nutz...

Anyway can you comment on what parts you've used to build the exhaust, I will hopefully soon be doing the same and I'd like to know what works size wise so I can order stuff... I'm thinking its 3" pipe, small converter and a what 5"radius U bend that you used?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I had fun doing mine, I ended up taking out the spring, and cut a "keyway" in the tensioner housing. The keyway accepts a peice of metal that is held in by a large hose clamp. It looks sorta funny, but it was really easy to do, and works VERY well, way better than I thought it would. I say it worked better than I thought, because I haven't killed a belt on this swap yet, which has happend on some of my other swaps due to limited grip on some parts of the accessory drive.

Yes it seems that the tensioner can be repositoned on some but the series III tensioner arm is held to the bracket by a unusual type of fastener. I've heard that many guys broke the tensioner while attempting to remove it. That fastener is just under the front cap. Sorry to go off topic but this has been a difficult fabrication task to solve.

quote I'm not quite sure how the Series II differs from the Series III with respect to the alternator tensioners. I do know that I didn't use the stock tensioner, but had to buy one that was designed for a V-6 Ford Taurus. I might still have the product number at home - I'll try to get it tonight.

Appreciate the info but how did you remove the original tensioner arm from the bracket? See remarks above.
-----------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by multmigs: my wife said earlier, you look like me when we got married and I wasnt so plump wow I've never heard this type of comment before... Its almost like getting kicked in the nutz... Anyway can you comment on what parts you've used to build the exhaust, I will hopefully soon be doing the same and I'd like to know what works size wise so I can order stuff... I'm thinking its 3" pipe, small converter and a what 5"radius U bend that you used?

hehe what I meant was she said that I looked like greasychicken when I was younger aka just married, less fat which I blame on my wifes excellent cooking


Part Number QTY
SUM-640025 1 Exhaust Tubing, Straight, 2 1/ 2 in. Diameter, 4 ft. Length, 16-Gauge, Aluminized, Steel
SUM-640030 1 Exhaust Tubing, Straight, 3 in. Diameter, 4 ft. Length, 16-Gauge, Aluminized, Steel, Each
BIG-50363FLT 1 FlowTech Afterburner Mufflers Muffler, Afterburner, 3 in. Inlet/ Dual 2 1/ 2 in. Outlet, Aluminized Steel, Chevy/ Pontiac
*HED-12083 1 Hedman 120 Degree Mandrel Bends Exhaust Tubing, 120 Degree, Mandrel Bend, 3 in. Diameter, 6 in. Radius, 18-Gauge, Steel
HOK-12280HKR 3 Hooker Mandrel Bend Tubing Exhaust Tubing, 180 Degree, Mandrel U-Bend, 3 in. Diameter, 6 in. Radius, 18-Gauge
*PSM-82-4218 1 Pacesetter Flex Joint Pipes Flex Joints, Stainless Steel, Weld-On, 3 in. Inlet/ Outlet, Each
SUM-622004 2 Summit Exhaust Tubing Mandrel Bends Exhaust Tubing, 180 Degree, Mandrel Bend, 3 in. Diameter, 4 1/ 2 in. Radius, 16-Gauge
WLK-41095 1 Dynomax Tail Spouts Exhaust Tip, 3 in. Inlet, 3 in. Outlet, 12 in. Length, Aluminized Steel, Each
WLK-41961 2 Dynomax Universal Exhaust Connectors and Reducers Exhaust Pipe Reducer, 2.5 in. Inside Diameter to 2.25 in. Inside Diameter., 4.5 in. Long
HOK-12260HKR 2 Hooker Mandrel Bend Tubing Exhaust Tubing, 180 Degree, Mandrel U-Bend, 2 1/ 4 in. Diameter, 6 in. Radius, 18-Gauge, Steel

* = didnt use
I think I used the sum-622004 for both my bends, been awhile honestly. hope this list helps

quote Originally posted by multmigs: my wife said earlier, you look like me when we got married and I wasnt so plump wow I've never heard this type of comment before... Its almost like getting kicked in the nutz... Anyway can you comment on what parts you've used to build the exhaust, I will hopefully soon be doing the same and I'd like to know what works size wise so I can order stuff... I'm thinking its 3" pipe, small converter and a what 5"radius U bend that you used?

From my summit order:
FLO-53083 MUFFLER (Flowmaster 80 series, 1-3" inlet, 2-2.5" outlets)
HOK-21380HKR J BEND ALZD 3 16GA (2 3" aluminized "J" bend pipes, 4" radius)
STW-MB90250 90DEG BEND (2 2.5" aluminized 90 degreed pipes)

I also got the free flowing cat from ebay. That will be enough for me to finish the exhaust. I also bought some Hooker tips, but they will be too long to work with this setup, so I bought some Camaro tips (only 10" deep).

[This message has been edited by grsychckn (edited 07-12-2007).]

Careful, I use the same kind of cats. They get so hot they glow a little at night. They have no heat shield, so make sure you make one.

I'm running 2 of them with 2.5" stainless all the way back to the supertrapps. (full size trapps, not those stupid looking coffee can ones.)

[This message has been edited by HellYes (edited 07-12-2007).]

I got some work done this weekend, although nothing very visible, I'm just glad I'm making progress. First, I got my plus-itive and minus-itive battery cables run from the front to the back (2-gauge welding cable). I ended up using almost all of my 25-foot piece I got online. I also got my A/C lines worked out. The 4cyl 87 A/C lines were about 3" too long and I had to have them shortened. Luckily a shop near me spliced them up and let me take two pieces home so I could mark them to the right length, then he re-spliced them again ($80 for parts + labor). Here are some pictures of what I've got now, and it fits nicely. I'll be putting a heatshield around the lines to keep them safe from the headers.







I also got a R-134 conversion kit, but am very unsure about which O-rings go where, especially because I don't have the originals that were on my fiero now. I'll have to take a closer look sometime this week if I get a chance. If I can't figure out what to do, I'll post some pictures and see if I can get some help.

Well, the exhaust is now getting TIG welded and while I wait for that to get back I decided to finish up a lot of loose ends. First, the original passenger's side coolant hose I bought didn't fit, so I went to Advance Auto today and got one that does. Below you can see the new hose compared to the old one. The part # of the new one is (E)71317.





Then, I finished wiring up the battery and I now have power again. I've only tested the interior lights, but they definitely work - and the best part was that nothing burned down!

One thing I've not figured out yet though, is what this red connector is for...any help would be appreciated.



And the most frustrating part of the day - I bought some MSD spark plug wires so that I could cut them to length for a nice clean look. However, once I crimped the end and got the boot on, I bent the connector 90 degrees to find out that the boot doesn't cover the entire connector. It sticks out about 1/2". I don't usually get mad, but this is rediculous - anyone know of a reason they might do this? I'm definitely going to call them tomorrow to see what can be done, I paid almost $100 for these wires and the boot sheilds should cover the entire connector.

They are blatently the wrong ends, those are the ends that snap onto the plugs, not the coil packs.

Yeah, I don't think I bought the right set. It looks like I'm going to have to buy new terminals so that the boots I have will cover them entirely. Here are pictures of what I got.

First, the wire with one end pre-assembled (for coil pack).


Next, the wire I cimped and put the 90 degree bend in and installed the boot.


Finally, the terminals and the boots I got in the kit.


None of the boots are long enough to cover the terminals...Looks like I can get shorter ones though from Summit for like $15, guess I'll have to get those.

quote Originally posted by grsychckn: Well, finally got some progress done with the intercooler. Here are some pictures of the heat exchanger mounted. I also mounted the pump just in front of the right front wheel. The fan I'm using is a SPAL 7.5" puller fan and will mount one switch in the dash to activate the pump and the fan. The fan will run whenever the pump is running (at least for now). Picts:

How can a 3800SC intercooler be mounted in front??? You must cool the boosted charge AFTER it leaves the supercharger or turbo in order to be effective. In other words you need an aftercooler.
------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-29-2007).]

It is an air/water type that sits between the S/C and intake. What you see there is the radiator for the water.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 07-29-2007).]

Ok, I got the finished exhaust back today and I mounted it. I still am going to slap a coat of high-temp exhaust paint on it and wrap the cat with a heat shield. I also have to weld up some supports for each side so that the weight of the exhaust doesn't completely rest on the exhaust headers. Pictures:

Well, just a quick update. I found out what that little red connector is - it's the low pressure cut-off switch connector for the A/C. Not sure exactly how that works just yet as I also ran into a problem with my A/C lines and have decided to get Loyde to make custom ones for me (A/C is on hold).

I did finish painting up the exhuast and I topped off the coolant for the intercooler and the engine. The intercooler setup I have with the fan works great and I can turn it on or off easily with the dash mounted switch I installed under the dash. Amazingly it worked on the first try - no issues, no leaks!

I had two coolant leaks however, one at the heater core outlet of the T-Stat housing (fixed by adding another clamp), and one at the water pump where I plugged up the old 3800 heater core outlet. With the plugged hole, I think it was leaking because the expansion plug I used was either not exactly the correct size, or it is sitting slightly uneven. Because I didn't want to drain the coolant and try to take the plug back out, I used some J.B. Weld on the plug and it is holding for now (the real test will be when the motor is running).

I bled the clutch line which was much easier than I expected it to be. I moved the slave cylinder to the highest point I could and used my air compressor + mityvac to bleed the line. The bleeder valve let air in as I was bleeding, but I put some kevlar tape over the threads to ensure a good seal and that worked for now. I imagine I'm going to want to get a new bleeder valve, but I don't have a clue where to get one so I'll leave the kevlar tape on until I can find a replacement. With the clutch bled, I had over 1" of travel on the clutch arm.

I turned the key to ACC and the fuel pump primed with no fuel leaks. However, the problem I have to tackle now is that the radiator fan kicked on as soon as I turned the key to ACC. I'm going to have to figure out if it might be caused by a bad fan relay or if the temp sensor is bad. Any ideas that I could check quickly would be greatly appreciated.

I'm out of town this weekend and next, so I may get time during this next week to track down that stubborn rad fan problem. More picts next time I get a chance to work on it.

Hey man, you're up off 66 by washington. Would love to scope out what you're doing as I'm on the same path (whipple charged 3800 in an '88) Good luck,

Joe

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: Hey man, you're up off 66 by washington. Would love to scope out what you're doing as I'm on the same path (whipple charged 3800 in an '88) Good luck, Joe

Yeah, and I travel down near Quantico every weekday for my job. Anytime you want to take a look at it, let me know - you're more than welcome to come by. I already had another member drive up from N. Carolina to look at it last week. I can meet you near Quantico and you can follow me up to my house, or you can drive up some weekend as long as you let me know.

freeze plugs just do not seem to work very well at all in those coolant fittings. They are far from machine fittings, and usually get a decent amount of junk built up around there that just doesnt wash away. I would get a rubber stopper made just for this application, you can find them at auto part stores and they work very well.

Time for another update. I've had some problems with my radiator fan coming on when the key is turned to ignition. With help from DarthFiero, I've been able to track it down to an A/C high pressure switch that I don't have anything connected to.

I managed to get most of the rear suspension installed, but had to use some old bolts as I didn't buy enough of the new ones to completely replace all the old ones. So, I don't have any of the bolts torqued to spec, but they support the weight of the car just fine for now. I will order what I need tonight and then hopefully I'll be able to get the rear suspension finished within the next week.

I almost tried starting it yesterday, but when I put gas in and primed the fuel pump, there was a fuel leak near the FPR. I soon realized I had the PRJ FPR housing installed incorrectly and even though it was tight, it leaked quiet a bit. Today I went and got some high temp thread sealer and applied it to the threads of the FPR, but now I have to wait at least 4 hours for it to fix - 72 hours to completely cure. So while I waited I went and took some current picts of the car and the engine. The links are for full-sized images.




http://www.grsychckn.com/Fi...rge/engine_bay_2.jpg


http://www.grsychckn.com/Fi...rge/engine_bay_3.jpg


http://www.grsychckn.com/Fi...rge/engine_bay_4.jpg


http://www.grsychckn.com/Fi...rge/engine_bay_5.jpg

Well, I tried starting it today, but no luck. I double-checked the firing order and it all seems right. I know I'm getting fuel, and if the order I have is correct I'm also getting spark. I had to extend the coil pack wires though and I guess I'll need to check to make sure I did that correctly. Below is a video of my attempt at starting. Any advice for troubleshooting would be very appreciated.

http://www.grsychckn.com/Fi...00SC/first_start.avi

------------Firewall
5-3-1
6-4-2
------------Bumper

[This message has been edited by grsychckn (edited 08-20-2007).]