Can someone give me the exact weights of the 88 GT and Formula? Oh and their horsepower too. I can do a rough calculation of what their 1/4 mile time should be.
And to lose weight correctly, you should replace heavier things with lighter components, after you run out of unnecessary items to ditch. If the car is not a full on race car I include the egr and climate controls (not a/c) as necessary.
[This message has been edited by LitebulbwithaFiero (edited 12-15-2009).]
So the impact cross-beams in the doors are only 11 pounds each? So what is the next "big weight" item in the doors? the padding/sound dampening material?
Is stuff like dynamat lighter than that carpeting/padding stuff?
I'm interested in lightening up just the doors for right now. But the rest is pretty interesting too!
Here's an easy one. I never got around to weighing them but I'm sure there is as much or more than a 10 lb difference between the Fiero starter and the late model starter. That's a 3.4 starter but it's pretty much the same as a Fiero starter except for one mounting hole. Although more invasive, the aluminum heads as a pair weigh about 30 lbs less than the cast iron heads. The harmonic balancer on the aluminum head motors would save a few pounds to.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-19-2010).]
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08:44 PM
Aug 20th, 2010
Cro577 Member
Posts: 110 From: Layton, Utah, US Registered: Aug 2010
This thread has got me thinkin about lightening up my Fiero.. Would a choptop lighten up the car much? I mean, your getting rid of glass and replacing it with Lexan, your getting rid of some of the metal, some of the Body panel...
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03:06 AM
Intel Member
Posts: 752 From: Helsingborg, Sweden Registered: May 2002
What about just stripping the body to the frame and drilling 1/8th inch holes every 2 inches? (Kidding!!)
Anyway, that does sound really interesting. "If only" and "What might have been" come to mind often when speaking of the Fiero
Was there a special method to make it, was it some aluminum alloy? According to "Producing the P-Car", 280 stamped steel pieces come together as 6 substructures (minus the cradle), and then put together to form the main body. One could theoretically take the sections apart, get a CAD file made, then to a CNC machine to duplicate out of an aluminum block. Would that work? No idea how much aluminum stock that large would cost, though.
I saw the real thing up close. I wish I would have taken a picture of it. It was at the GM proving grounds circa Fall of 1982. The one I saw was in raw aluminum, built by hand and it was not painted. Quite amazing.
Since Pontiac has closed down, and the Fiero hasn't been made in over 20 years, do you think GM would release the technical specs on that frame?
For instance I emailed the people who designed the F40 transmission for schematics, they very politely emailed me back and said that they couldn't release them because of a NDA they had with Pontiac. Now since the F40 was still in use at that time (and Pontiac wasn't a memory), I can understand that.
But we might luck out in this case given the circumstances. Anyone have any contact information that we could send email or letters too besides the GM corporate? Was this new frame designed in-house, or outsourced?
Afterall, I figured it'd be alot less expensive to have such a thing made if the people have schematics to work from and don't have to do alot of trial and error, no?
Originally posted by Trinten: For instance I emailed the people who designed the F40 transmission for schematics, they very politely emailed me back and said that they couldn't release them because of a NDA they had with Pontiac. Now since the F40 was still in use at that time (and Pontiac wasn't a memory), I can understand that.
The F40 trans is still used in the Saab 9-3 models. There's even an AWD version available.
Thanks Dobey, that slipped my mind but goes to prove part of why they likely couldn't release the tech papers on it.
That, and I'm sure they will seek to preserve the brand and intellectual property from all the now defunct divisions, in the event they want to sue someone else for patent/trademark/copyright violation, to allow them the option of licensing use of the branding to others (such as for the Firebird conversions for new Camaros), or to possibly try to bring back the brand in the future. It's the same reasons they keep re-registering the Fiero and other trademarks when they near expiration.
As for the aluminum frame specifications, there probably isn't all that much to learn from it anyway. It probably wouldn't be very hard at all for an experienced chassis builder to make a Fiero frame with aluminum. GM has been using aluminum engine cradles and such for a few years now, so seeing what techniques they use there should be easy to extrapolate to other parts of the frame and chassis. There's probably not a whole lot of beneift to building a Fiero frame in aluminum for a street car though.
That said, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to gain from getting some 'tech specs' for the trans or chassis, either. The gearing for the F40 is well known, and the case itself isn't much different from other modern Getrag cases. Are you looking for more detailed information about the materials core? If so, the information may be filed with DOT and EPA anyway, for regulatory and legal reasons. At which point, it should be accessible to any US citizen by the Freedom of Information Act, I would think.
Some top motor mount (dogbone) weights ==============================
1984 SE 4cylinder (all parts here are used): bare original dogbone 7" center to center: 0.696lbs poly bushings with sleeves : 0.625lbs weighed together.
7" 1984 4cyl OE dogbone with aftermarket poly bushings and sleeves: 1.321lbs
2 bolts, 2 smaller washers, 1 large washer, 2 nuts: 0.415lbs 7" 1984 4cyl OE dogbone with aftermarket poly bushings and sleeves, OE bolts, washers, nuts: 1.736lbs
============= Late 1986 v6: OE dog bone, 4" center to center version with tapered bushings: 1.118lbs w/ sleeves+rubber bushings (old and deteriorated) bare dogbone by itself, no bushings or sleeves: 0.599lbs
"ultimate dogbone" from Fiero Store, new, with poly bushings and their included sleeves: 2.147lbs
Above are all direct measurements, not arithmetic. Weighed on a 10lb commercial scale.
[estimated: 4" v6 "ultimate dogbone" with bolts, washers, nuts would be about 2.562lbs] The "ultimate dogbone" adds about 1lb vs the OE V6 dogbone and rubber.
dogbone bracket - 2.535 lbs dogbone bracket with 2 bolts, but not the bolt that also goes through alternator bracket - 2.651lbs Not that anybody is obsessing about the difference from including the bolts.. but I might as well be precise.
I had the alternator bracket out earlier but didn't think to weigh it.
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07:53 PM
doublec4 Member
Posts: 8289 From: Oakville, Ontario, Canada Registered: Jun 2003
I looked into polycarb once and after some reading decided it wasn't for me. Its nice but it scratches easily and once scratched you can't buff the scratch out.
quote
http://www.plastics4performance.com/Pages/FAQ
What materials can I choose from? There are four common materials that we use in the manufacture of our windows, described in order of impact strength;
PLEXIGLAS (Perspex) is the most common material used. It is approximately three times stronger than glass of the same thickness and it has an easy to maintain surface. This surface allows minor scratches to polish out, but it can suffer from stress cracking, especially when it is mechanically fixed to the car. IDEAL FOR HILLCLIMB, SPRINT OR TRACKDAY CARS WHERE CONTACT IS MINIMAL
FLEXI-GLASS is our very own specification high impact acrylic sheet designed for motorsports. A cross between Perspex and Polycarbonate it gives you approx seventy five times the impact strength of standard Perspex. It is more scratch resistant than standard polycarbonate and it is tough, weather resistant and UV protected, which means it will give exceptional service as a replacement window. OUR PREFERED CHOICE FOR CIRCUIT RACING, RALLY, RALLY CROSS ETC.
PETG is a new material, which is again, extremely tough with superb optical properties and very resistant to chemical attack. It is primarily used when the need for Thermoform screens arises. We have this material colour matched to our polycarbonate.
POLYCARBONATE The toughest of materials is almost impossible to break under normal conditions. It is 250+ more impact resistant than glass; however its one fault lies in its relatively soft surface and inability to allow scratches to be polished out.IDEAL FOR ROUGH USAGE SUCH AS FOREST RALLY OR RALLY CROSS CARS.
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10:28 PM
doublec4 Member
Posts: 8289 From: Oakville, Ontario, Canada Registered: Jun 2003
Hmm, well I'd be interested in whatever is lighter weight than glass. I keep my windows rolled down all the way 95% of the time. I only have them up in the rain, or when left parked. I wouldn't want them scratched from say, the dew wipes, but I can't imagine the side glass coming in contact with anything else?
..The best economical Fiero made was the 88 4 cylinder with only a Radio, unfortunately Most people like creature comfort like power windows, anvil heavy comfort seats,air conditioning ,,soon you have another 300 pounds ,, the Fiero seats are a winner you can lose 20 to 30 pounds replacing them but lose comfort..this 88 4 cylinder is a sports car ,just barely gets the nod because of power ,,fun to drive but most here want a small block chevy if possible
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04:34 PM
Sep 25th, 2010
Stubby79 Member
Posts: 7064 From: GFY county, FY. Registered: Aug 2008
Anyone know what the GT lace wheels (with tires?) weigh? I had the ones off my (new) GT the other day, and they seemed surprisingly light. I have aluminum 15s on my other car (not a Fiero) and they weigh probably half again what these do! And wo won't even go near what the 16's on my truck weigh... I've also go a set of 16's from an '02 cavalier, and they're very light next to the other set of 16's I was thinking of putting on.
Anyone have any new info for the rest of us? I'll come up with some more numbers soon.
Oh, and I had a door skin, the inner door panel and the power window regulator off as well...the window regulators aren't all that heavy, though a hand-crank one would probably be lighter. I found with the skin and the inner panel off, the door felt a LOT lighter when closing. Nevermind taking out the steel beam (bad idea anyway) -- the skin and panel probably weighed over 10lbs each...I'm sure they could both be done a lot lighter! Modern inner door panels only weigh a few pounds, not 10.
[This message has been edited by Stubby79 (edited 09-25-2010).]
Here's an easy one. I never got around to weighing them but I'm sure there is as much or more than a 10 lb difference between the Fiero starter and the late model starter. That's a 3.4 starter but it's pretty much the same as a Fiero starter except for one mounting hole. Although more invasive, the aluminum heads as a pair weigh about 30 lbs less than the cast iron heads. The harmonic balancer on the aluminum head motors would save a few pounds to.
You can get later model starters that have the exact mounting holes as the Fiero starter. There are threads here about that -- search.
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12:31 PM
Oct 31st, 2010
jim94 Member
Posts: 1226 From: jacksonville, fl. usa Registered: Jan 2010
Can someone give me the exact weights of the 88 GT and Formula? Oh and their horsepower too. I can do a rough calculation of what their 1/4 mile time should be.
Why would you want to do that? Surely there are enough actual measured times that we don't need more hypothesized ones that may or may not be accurate?
You guys think the Fiero is overweight! What about the Solstice? They come in just about 3000 lbs. give or take 40 lbs. depending on model.
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04:27 PM
Nov 1st, 2010
sspeedstreet Member
Posts: 2306 From: Santa Maria, CA Registered: Dec 2002
Here's an easy one. I never got around to weighing them but I'm sure there is as much or more than a 10 lb difference between the Fiero starter and the late model starter.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Not sure what I'd need to search for, but I can't seem to find the right thread which states the year / model I should buy from.
passenger side sunvisor from 86GT w/ mirror attached, no pocket: 0.97lbs Fiero Store psg visor bought in late 90's for an 84, no mirror, no pocket: 0.63lbs
[This message has been edited by armos (edited 11-04-2010).]
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08:34 PM
Nov 5th, 2010
lou_dias Member
Posts: 5347 From: Warwick, RI Registered: Jun 2000
My 88 formula weighed 2780 when it was a street car. The last time I raced, it crossed the scales at 2370 without me in it. It has since lost another 10 pounds or so. That includes 1/2 tank of fuel, 120 pounds of roll cage and a 10 pound halon fire system. My entire exhaust system is 4 feet long (and 99 decibels at speed which would not work on the street either).
I am still finding additional things to remove that are not so obvious and every ounce counts when you are trying to lose weight. I have even gone so far as removing any unused wires from the harness. I still have a single wiper on the driver's side (SCCA races in the rain) but it is powered by a single toggle switch instead of the OE setup. Even trimming excess metal from parts adds up. For example, the steel rings on the rear strut towers that hold the vent screw on each side. Cut off the extra steel that makes it a circle and only keep the one bolt hole the actual bracket attaches to instead.
For a street car, you would not be smart to mess with the door structure. Not only do they provide side impact strength, they also act to transmit crash forces front to rear in hard frontal crashes. There are much easier and safer ways to lose weight.
The hood inner structure weighs about 12 pounds, the trunk lid inner structre weighs about 10 pounds. However, removing either one will require multiple hood pins which make the effective weight loss much less. Not worth it on a street car.
12SI 66amp alternator w/ fan and nut but no pulley: 10.499lbs 84 pulley: 0.342lbs total weight w/ 84 pulley: 10.841lbs v6 pulley probably a bit heavier, don't have a loose one, not a big factor anyway. Figure 11lbs for a V6 alternator.
Don't know if the higher amp versions are heavier. Some parts were replaced but the stator is the heavy part and I left that alone, so presumably it's OEM.
2ndhand info: http://www.s10forum.com/for...-368983/#post5581454 shows that a CS130 weighs 10.4lbs with a pulley on it. Doesn't say the amperage unless it's further up in the thread somewhere. CS144 shown as 15.3lbs.
[This message has been edited by armos (edited 08-22-2011).]
Just a comment on drilling holes in plates; holes (and cracks) create a stress concentration so the force felt by the material at the hole is much higher than the force applied. For example, based on fracture mechanics, a hole in a plate will deform at a stress of just 1/3 of the yield strength of the material, this of course is provided the hole is smaller than the plate. The yield strength is the point at which a metal begins to deform or bend (actually permanent shape change). So the bottom line is science tells us drilling holes dramatically weakens the material.
