very informative thread. what year fuel pump did you use amd from what car?

Bump for freshness, and to mention that I'm about to start working again.

List of things still needing done:

Run wire for second O2 sensor (running a camaro computer and camaro manifolds, dual O2's)
Have exhaust fabbed
re-assemble interior
program ECM
Assemble front brakes and bleed.
Alignment
Drive!!

so I started reading you list of things still to do and misinterpreted it as stuff that was done. I got really excited and a little mad I had not seen the pics... Then I discovered you still had to do that stuff!

Come on Aaron, get that thing finished!

It does look good BTW

Our high temp for tomorrow is supposed to be single-digits..

Besides, I'm sick right now. And lazy. And poor. Did I mention lazy?

Arron
Get of your lazy butt and get it done.

Oh by the way I now haw my own HP Tuners.

See you soon

Joe

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

So far so good Aaron. I'd sure like to see it when it's done!! Are you going to have it at the N.W. Fiero Fest this year?

When you get it on the road, I hope those red poly bushings on those beautiful A-arms aren't to noisy. I changed mine out to the black ones with graphite (when I installed new slotted ball joints), to eliminate the sqeaking and squawking every time I went over a bump or dip. The fronts were the worse, cause they move more. In dry climates, like Arizona, there's probably no problem, but every time it rained, it would wash-out all the silicone lube and start squawking again, and it was so embarrassing. It's quiet now, and doesn't compete with my stereo any more either!...lol.

If I could figure out how to reduce my pictures to 307,200 bytes and 1024 width, I'd use PFF's PIP to post a picture. I don't know why they didn't make it work with a standard camera size..? I'll have to get my computer geek over here to show me how. I've got all the programs down-loaded, just can't figure out how to make all these different things work.

Looking forward to you continuing this thread! You're doing a good job!

[This message has been edited by hypo327 (edited 02-24-2011).]

Yeah, goal is to have it at NW fiero fest. Poly's ok, and my previous car had squeaks, but I'm pretty sure that having the arms all powder-coated along with the LIBERAL helping of goop I shmeared on there it'll be ok for a year or two.

Just last weekend, I got the fiberglass battery tray mounted up, and beginning this afternoon / and into this weekend it's plumbing time: Time to get the brakes all mounted up and bled.

[This message has been edited by aaronkoch (edited 03-17-2011).]

hey aaronkoch
how hard was your harness to do?
i was looking through here and i like the way you layed it all out
any pointers that might help?
thanks,
jason

Harness wasn't difficult with Ryan's diagrams, but it was tedious. I printed the pinouts from www.gmtuners.com, then checked each one off after verifying with a meter. It took me an honest 6 hours of work. Granted, I've never done one before, but I can tell you I still think it would take at least 3-4 if I made another one.

[This message has been edited by aaronkoch (edited 03-17-2011).]

Aaron tried to call you Damn phone battery is dead. I have the fuel line you need.

Joe

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

Ok, got the in-tank tube replaced (oh, how I HATE dropping the tank), and we're back in business.

Also, setting the VATS to PWM and disabling the P-codes for VATS seems to have solved the VATS issue.




Had a squal go through, and had to pull back into the garage, but next up is finishing the brakes, and attaching body panels.

[This message has been edited by aaronkoch (edited 03-20-2011).]

damn man looks awesome and sounds real mean. Get her finished up! I am hoping to get back up there sometime in the next couple months. I had a great time hanging out and hope to make it happen one more time before I graduate. Keep up the good work.

Damian

Nice work Aaron!

You should drive it around the neighborhood with no exhaust like I did.....at 11:00 at night You make a lot of friends that way!

4 1/2 months til Fiero Fest....hope you can get her done by then!

Paul

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http://www.raceme.cc/helmet/

I would have, except the brakes aren't hooked up yet, the interior's not in it, and the instrument cluster is balanced on the steering column (which is also loose, to let me swap the clutch pedal assembly in). That would have been Mr. Toad's wild ride for sure..

I'm hoping to get the exhaust and alignment done this weekend/upcoming week, throw the brakes on and bleed 'em, then go for a ride! It'll look like hell, but after 2 years I don't care. Just wanna drive it.

------------------


Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

Ugh, pulled the oil filter adapter today to make changing the oil pressure sender easier, and found out that it's bone dry.. Fantastic, the oil pump doesn't pump.

I'll have to track that down..

On the good-news front, with Tony's help, i got the brakes bled today. One step forwards, 2 back. I seriously thought about walking away from the project today, but can't being soooo close to done.

Some days, I really do feel like just parting it out...

Aaron, sorry man. But honestly, you are sooooo close. I am really impressed with your progress, quality of the parts, and how solid the car is. You are not far off, and I am sure that the crew will help get her going. (BBQ @ your house. )

Tony

Just to post an update:

Well, good news! I'd simply forgotten to put in the oil pressure relief valve and spring, and without it in the housing, there's no way for the oil pump to suck oil out of the pan. I ran to pull & save, grabbed a plunger and spring, cleaned them up and re-installed the oil filter housing (after pre-squirting the oil-pump full of straight 30w oil), pulled the plugs out, shot some oil in the cylinders with a syringe, pulled the PCU plugs, and spun the motor with the starter.

It only took about 3 seconds for oil pressure to register on the gauge, phew! Even with just the starter, it hopped up to about 60 PSI (still assembly lube in there).

I spun for a while longer to make sure everything was good and lubed, then put the plugs back in and fired her up.

Now, on to the next problem:

Engine runs, but really crappily. I have a scanner, and the sensors are reading correctly. Fuel pressure is good, measured with a gauge, and I can keep the engine running. At idle, fuel PSI is ~50, and it goes up to about 55 when the throttle is blipped.

I have 2 seperate coil-pack / ICU combos, and swapping them makes no difference. Resistance across ALL my coil packs (across spark plug terminals) is ~12.5 ohms on all of them.

My question is this: I removed that weird honeycomb air-straightener that sat in front of the MAF. Is it needed? If I put a clean rag across the opening of the intake tube, it runs better, and sometimes doesn't miss at all. Otherwise, it sounds like it's got just the gnarliest cam in the world in there...

I don't have an exhaust on there yet, just the manifolds, but I don't think that would cause my problems..

Any info you guys can spare would be appreciated. If I don't hear back, I'll go to pick & pull and get another honeycomb mesh thingy and try that. I tried to remove for cleaning before I had snap-ring pliers and damaged the last one..

I have taken out the screen or honeycomb out of severall MAF you will be getting better air flow but it should not cause your problem but I would get your exhuast done then start looking at the tune. After market MAFs don't have a screen

[This message has been edited by JPH87 (edited 05-08-2011).]

I'm running mine without the screen with little to no problems. On your scanner, what is the LTFT and are there no codes?

No coes stored, and no ltfts yet (still zero) as I haven't run it long enough to get it into closed loop yet.

I don't think its MAF related, as it runs theb same / worse without it plugged in.

Probably just crappy old injectors, they sat dry for 7 years before being reinstalled..

Ill grab a fresher set from pick & pull next chance I get.

the honey comb needs to be in there its a weird 3800 thing

bump

I've been working on this slowly, trying to figure out the crappy running.. Here's what I've got now.

First, the injectors:
I had the wrong ones in it. Joe had mistakenly given me a set of 3.4DOHC ones. I went to pull & save, got a set from a wrecked '97 3800NA (same year as computer) and soaked them in a 50%/50% solution of gasoline and techron for 3 weeks. I then rinsed them with electronic parts cleaner spray and they look great.. spray holes look awesome and the screens were clear. I then went and bought new fuel-injector o-rings for all of them.

Old/wrong ones on left, "cleaned"/correct ones on right.









So, I was pretty stoked at this point, popped off the fuel rail, lubed the o-rings with a dab of motor oil, installed the new injectors, and reinstalled the rail.
Pressurized the rail, checked for leaks, and went to start.

Same thing. It is easier to start now, but still runs like crap. The one new thing: If I rev it, as it idles back down, it will sometimes burble on all 6 like it should.

So, the troubleshooter in me gets to work. I have tried the following:

Swapped entire ICM and coil packs - no change
New plug wires
New GM plugs
Measured fuel pressure - 51 at idle, and jumps to 55 when I goose the engine.
Swapped MAF - no change
disconnected MAF to start - runs worse
swapped injectors - little change for the better, but same overall crappiness

PCM reports no trouble codes, all sensors report right with my scanner. MAP, Temp, TPS, MAF.

So, I was pretty frustrated. Tony Kania stopped by last night, so since I had a helper handy, I had him spritz some starter spray in when I started it. VROOM.

Hmm.. ran clean on all 6 when the starter spray is used. This tells me it's DEFINITELY in the fuel system somewhere.

So, in my mind, it's one of the following possibilities:
1) Wiring to injectors is bad / faulty (either poor connections on my part, or swapped injector leads somehow)
2) I missed the correct pins on the PCM for the injectors (not likely, but worth a check)
3) PCM somehow unable to properly ground injectors (also really unlikely, I have really good grounds to the PCM in all the places it needs them)
4) Faulty PCM

Now, in my mind, #1 seems the most likely. I checked with a meter before taping up the harness, and don't think I mis-pinned the PCM plug. If there was a serious internal problem in the PCM, I believe the CEL would stay on or flash.

I don't think it can be the crank / cam sensor, as it does run great when I spray starting fluid in the intake.

Am I missing a possibility? I'll tear the harness off the motor YET AGAIN (ugh) and start checking. At this point, I'm tempted to start over with the harness, as much of a PITA that is, just to eliminate it as a possibility..

I'm lazy and didn't want to look through the whole thread - did you get a noid light to test the firing of the injectors? It's a simple little light that plugs into the injector connector that will light an led every time it's "fired". Other than that I would definitely trace the grounds back to the pcm connector and make sure the appropriate wire goes to the appropriate injector.

Edit: Also with the engine running as bad as you say it is you should be getting a random misfire code. If you aren't getting one that would make me wonder.

Edit #2: This is the image that rock auto shows applies to a 1997 grand prix gt 3.8l N/A engine. It looks a lot different than the new injectors you received and a lot more like the "wrong" injectors you removed. This injector is from AC Delco. Do the injectors have identifying numbers on them?

[This message has been edited by JamesCurtis (edited 06-28-2011).]

Well, I was wondering about that too, but I've never let it run long enough to get to closed loop.. I'll try the noid light for sure, that's a great idea. Thanks.

My SES started blinking 30 seconds to a minute after the misfires occurred, I'm sure there's a minimum amount of misfires that need to occur in a certain amount of time to trip that but I don't know those exact figures. Can you just scan codes with your scanner and get general engine data (rpm, IAT, ECT, advance, etc.) or can you pull some of the enhanced pids such as individual cylinder misfire counts?

Edit: The noid light is really to show if the injector is getting fired at all (light won't light) or if for some reason it has shorted and is permanently lit. You can see random problems as well with the light blinking sometimes and not blinking others, it would probably help for you to jiggle the wire harness around with your hand to simulate going over rough terrain. A good signal will result in a steady pulsating light.

[This message has been edited by JamesCurtis (edited 06-28-2011).]

I can pull any PIDs, but need to know the PID number.

As far as the injectors, the original ones were "denso" brand, and the new ones I don't remember seeing a brand name. I pulled the "new" ones off of a 97 olds. It's possible the ones I pulled were replacement ones. Either way though, switching all 6 injectors to have it behave the same way is odd..

I'll start by trying the noid light at the injector plug.

Hello

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If you assist us by providing your banking information and PIN number, we will pay you a 5% commission on the amount transferred. This means that you will receive $2,750,000 for your assistance. In order to get started, please remove the powdercoated 88 Fiero suspension from your vehicle. Next, PM me for a shipping address. Though I am in Nigeria, the address I will give you is in Canada for security reasons. Please carefully package, pre pay, and ship the suspension and cradle. Once received, I will begin the process of the money transfer so that you can receive your $2,750,000 fee.

Thankin you very much

Mr. Mukwana
Vice President
Finance, Lagos

SWEET. Here comes my choptop. Rofl. Nigerian scam on pff. . What's the world coming to?

This has to be a joke. Where does that guy think he would get posting in a fiero forum? lol

Pretty sure its a weird joke. What would a Nigerian want with powder coated suspension pieces for a fiero?

LOL, yes it's a joke. But you've gotta love powder coated suspension bits.

The car is looking great!

Nolan

[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 07-15-2011).]

Thanking you for your prompt reply.

Here is the proof of the payment I am holding for you as promised.



In addition to the powder coated suspension pieces, please also send a brand new Series III S/C crate motor with Purple Reign mounts, finished wiring harness and Spec 3 clutch for an 88 Fiero. Of course you need to pre-pay for shipping but you will become a millionaire within 48 hours after goods are received. I will wire you an additional $2,000,000 for beechwood Mr. Mike's leather seat covers.

I can assure you that this is 100% real and the pile of money is sitting in front of me waiting to be transferred to you. I will be waiting patiently for your shipment

Mr. Mukwana.... a.k.a. Scam-a-lot

[This message has been edited by cam-a-lot (edited 07-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JamesCurtis: I'm lazy and didn't want to look through the whole thread - did you get a noid light to test the firing of the injectors? It's a simple little light that plugs into the injector connector that will light an led every time it's "fired". Other than that I would definitely trace the grounds back to the pcm connector and make sure the appropriate wire goes to the appropriate injector. Edit: Also with the engine running as bad as you say it is you should be getting a random misfire code. If you aren't getting one that would make me wonder. Edit #2: This is the image that rock auto shows applies to a 1997 grand prix gt 3.8l N/A engine. It looks a lot different than the new injectors you received and a lot more like the "wrong" injectors you removed. This injector is from AC Delco. Do the injectors have identifying numbers on them?

Hey James i have a 98 grand prix with the 3800n/a motor. The injectors in your pic look identicle to mine. Also someone mentioned the honey comb screen before the MAF and it needing to be there,well it doesn't .I removed mine and the car runs normal. I think the screen is a was to prevent crap from hitting and damaging the maf sensor element. I thought the stock v6 (fiero) style fuel pumps had to be replaced with a differant type? Also i have read somewhere on here about "camaro idle" tuning. I'll see if i can find the thread that meantions that. Not sure how there is a differnace between idle speeds,unless there is another factor than speed that is adjusted.

Arron waas all you tuning done by you with HP tuners?

edit to add: found the thread were IAC tables are mentioned.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/114188.html

Darth's post on 02-08-2011 @12:37pm.
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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 07-17-2011).]

quote I think the screen is a was to prevent crap from hitting and damaging the maf sensor element.

If something got into the air stream that was big enough to be blocked by the maf screen, I think you have other much more serious problems. The MAF screen is there to straighten the airflow before it hits the MAF to give more accurate readings. Removing it doesn't seem to make that big of a difference, and definitely wouldn't cause a car to misfire. If we could get some hard numbers out of the PCM such as LTFT and misfire counts on cylinders it would go a long way to telling us what is going on. Have you run a compression test on this engine?

I also have currently sold a 96 bonneville that had a 3800na it had a flashing check engine light. the current owners replaced the coil packs with new and fixed the missfire. i swapped coil packs from several "good" packs and still had the problem. Just a though try "new" coil packs.

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2