Are there any advantages to using the MSD series 6 Ignitions in the 2.8 V6 GT? Does this replace the ICM completely on the distributor? If so, does anyone have any insights to how this affects the performance of the engine? And, if it does replace the ICM, I would assume this corrects the issue of overheating modules...Thanks guys!

I have an MSD ignition control module (6A series) on my duke, its variable and can be used for 4, 6, and 8 cylnder applications.
What I basically see from the way its wired is the connectors that originally went to the coil now go to the MSD ICM and wires from the MSD ICM then go to a remote mount coil (I have a MSD Blaster 2 on mine)

I know the 4 and 6 cylnder Fieros use the same coil so I think it'll work regardless...
It is aftermarket, so I believe it'll be a higher quality and will last longer.

I think Its supposed to remove the rpm limiter and put out a longer spark to burn more fuel during combustion.
It also has a line out for an aftermarket tach.

quote Originally posted by AL87: I have an MSD ignition control module (6A series) on my duke, its variable and can be used for 4, 6, and 8 cylnder applications. What I basically see from the way its wired is the connectors that originally went to the coil now go to the MSD ICM and wires from the MSD ICM then go to a remote mount coil (I have a MSD Blaster 2 on mine) I know the 4 and 6 cylnder Fieros use the same coil so I think it'll work regardless... It is aftermarket, so I believe it'll be a higher quality and will last longer. I think Its supposed to remove the rpm limiter and put out a longer spark to burn more fuel during combustion. It also has a line out for an aftermarket tach.

What he said, i had the same setup on my duke and couldn't have been happier with the results.

the only part of the MSD ignition which is worthwhile is the coil itself
the capacitive discharge box does nothing but burn out dist caps & spark plug wires

if you run high compression or boost, the box will help. but, with roughly stock fuel/air density - the box dont do squat.

just get the coil. it does help, especially in the upper RPMs.
tho, I suppose if you need a rev limiter, the 6a is a expensive choice, but a choice.

I have had the MSD 6 box in my car, with the GM wiring adapter, which makes it easy to bypass.
it made ZERO impact on idle, starting, fuel economy & 1/4 mile times.

Don't do it. No advantage net.

If you have a boosted engine it can help, but on a NA engine it is no help at all. Like Pyrthian said, the upgraded coil is the way to go with good heavey wires. I use the Taylor 8mm.

I had the 6A MSD box and it really cost me big. It partially failed and there was no way to test it. It started emulating a vapour lock problem and I ended up replacing allot of equipment at my expense because every mechanic told me it could not be the MSD bos. WRONG. It turns out the primary circuit on it had loosened and shorted. The only way to isolate the problem was to unplug the unit.

In short, if it fails it can't be diagnosed or fixed. If you have the warranty to have to send it back and they replace it..

It is the equivalent of an automotive toothbrush, and frankly, in you application a total waste of money.

Hope this helps

Arn

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quote Pyrthian:the only part of the MSD ignition which is worthwhile is the coil itself the capacitive discharge box does nothing ...

Actually, CD provides a spark with higher amps & the rise time measured in nanoseconds instead of milliseconds. If you have a leak in your plug wires, the plug will fire before the voltage has had a chance to bleed off.

If one does nothing else to the ignition system, one will see little benefit if the rest of the components are good. However, take advantage of the better spark by increasing the plug gap for better mpg. For details, see Dr. Jacobs book "Performance Ignition Systems".

quote Originally posted by 30+mpg: Actually, CD provides a spark with higher amps & the rise time measured in nanoseconds instead of milliseconds. If you have a leak in your plug wires, the plug will fire before the voltage has had a chance to bleed off. If one does nothing else to the ignition system, one will see little benefit if the rest of the components are good. However, take advantage of the better spark by increasing the plug gap for better mpg. For details, see Dr. Jacobs book "Performance Ignition Systems".

yes, it sure does. but - still doesnt actually improve any aspect of the engines workings.

and - if you have a "leak" in your ignition cable - it WILL blast thru that hole. yes, the plug will likely still fire just fine - for a little while, until that leak is basicly shorting the coil.

and - yes - with just the MSD coil, you can open up the stock V6 gap from 0.045 to 0.060 - which is a good thing.

the MSD coil does more than enough for the V6 ignition. anything more is wasted. it certianly doesnt hurt anything - but - it also gains nothing.

I've had one. I used it. tested it with & without - there are no gains with the MSD box. none. not in milage, not in idle, not in 1/4 mile times.
there are gains with the MSD coil.

once you start with higher compression or boost - then you start seeing gains with the MSD box.

and - they also eat dist caps & ignition wires with the way over the top power being pumped thru.

I also agree with the above, it really doesn't add anything extra unless your using it in a long term race application.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 03-04-2011).]

If any of you are doing this on stock engine... Should not be noticeable different.
If it does... The HEI system has a screwed up parts or you've installed the parts wrong.

"the modules always burn out, must be a string of bad modules..." "the modules just suck..."
when really the engine has a bad coil and was overheating the module.
or the pickup coil is bad and making intermittent contact but the owner think all is just a module again.
just one iffy screw to mount the module can kill it... the mounting screw are also the power ground. (ground wire is a signal ground and there is a difference in the two grounds.)
see my cave, HE ignition in general engine section.

the HEI system is a decent design. Mostly is the owners and even many mechanics diagnose wrong, didn't install the parts correctly, or any number of other reasons, but HEI systems gets the bad rep. (And Yes, some aftermarket parts suck to.) You know you're always in trouble when a mechanic thinks he knows something more than GM does. Examples: A common error when working on coil on cap (V8 HEI) and then the mechanic throws away the ground strap for the coil. Then the mechanic says is that HEI has a known problem but really it has a missing ground. Likewise when replacing DIS modules or coils and the mechanic just throws the shield away instead of reusing it... best case it breaks the module but worse, it can end up being a fire.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

What I am trying to get at, is to keep from burning through ICM modules. I have not been able to run the car that I have purchased as yet, but in my other Fiero, I would go through an ICM at least every 4 months or so. Plus, it always happens at the most inopportune times, IE, driving in the far left lane on the 10 Freeway, at 70 MPH. Im just trying to make the car more reliable, but if it eats through plug wires, that wont help either. I dont really care that much about a "performance" increase. My ideas on performance were more related to reliability. Im sorry my OP wasnt as clear. I have thought about going with DIS, but I dont want the trouble with smog certs, and rewiring the computer/harness. Any additional thoughts?

quote Originally posted by RhinoDj: What I am trying to get at, is to keep from burning through ICM modules. I have not been able to run the car that I have purchased as yet, but in my other Fiero, I would go through an ICM at least every 4 months or so. Plus, it always happens at the most inopportune times, IE, driving in the far left lane on the 10 Freeway, at 70 MPH. Im just trying to make the car more reliable, but if it eats through plug wires, that wont help either. I dont really care that much about a "performance" increase. My ideas on performance were more related to reliability. Im sorry my OP wasnt as clear. I have thought about going with DIS, but I dont want the trouble with smog certs, and rewiring the computer/harness. Any additional thoughts?

The problem is likely not with the modules but rather with your conectors! When you swap out a bad module, coil or other ignition part you unplug the connector and plug it into the new unit, doing that cleans the pins a little in the connectors and thus the new unit works fine, untill the ocnnector corrodes some more, maybe in 4 months? These cars old and near all of them have the origional connectors. Next time you have module failure, dont run off and buy a new, just reseat the connectors a few times and try it again. If that fixed it, it's time to replace the connecotors and moan about all those good module you ditched. The same thing can be sad about sensor connectors; MAP, TPS etc.

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I havent had this problem with my NEWEST Fiero, because I havent had it running yet. On my OLD car though, it seemed to be that the modules were OVERHEATING, because if I just let the car sit for like 10 mins after the car shut off, it would fire right back up and run for a bit, until dying again after a short time. Replacing the module always seemed to remedy the problem. Perhaps I was misdiagnosing it, but it didnt seem so at the time. And I believe that my connectors to the module and the coil had both been replaced by me.

This just recently happened to me with my Grand Prix. It would randomly shut off...then after about 15 mins of letting it sit, it started right back up. I took it to a mechanic who couldnt find anything wrong. I drove it away from the shop and the thing died within 2 miles. I went to AutoZone, bought a new ICM, installed it in the parking lot, and havent had the problem since.

quote Originally posted by RhinoDj: What I am trying to get at, is to keep from burning through ICM modules. ... I would go through an ICM at least every 4 months or so. ... Any additional thoughts?

(re)Read my post above and cave article....

Burning module mean other problem(s) cause overheating the module and other problems.
bad coil
bad tach filter
bad connector(s)
bad/loose mounting screw
bad pickup coil

Most can fry the module.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 03-04-2011).]

If you get the GM harness to go with the box it is easy to disconnect the box from the coil to see if the box has failed. Just unplug the box and plug right into the coil to bypass the box. I went with the 6A box because I read in this forum that the box took over some of the functions of the ignition module and could help lower the chance of failure. I don't know if that is true, and I can't offer any proof from my experiences with or without the box. I've had my Fiero for 15 years, about half of that time was without the box, and never had a failure either way. I do still carry a spare, because you know what will happen if I don't.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: The problem is likely not with the modules but rather with your conectors!

Exactly as Francis mentioned, here's your 1000 word pictures. Listen to the ogres advice too, since you're burning up modules.





I do have a MSD series 6 Ignition on my V-6, maybe smoothed out the idle a bit and a slight imporvemnt in gas mileage. If I were to do it again, I would skip the box and just go with hot MSD coil with good wires. I will say this, that MSD coil will burn up rotors at an accelerated pace versus a stock coil. I was going through modules too at first until I cleaned up all the electrical connections and grounds.

I've been using an MSD 4800V coil PN6226 (looks just like the stock coil, except it's red) for 3-years on my 2.8 V6, with NGK platinum plugs, Magnecore 8mm wires, and a Cardone distributor, thinking it would help h.p., mileage, etc, but without any noticeable problems or improvements that I could tell. I recently did a 3.4 swap and used all the same electronics, but when I went to put the Cardone distributor back on, I noticed The distributor cap contacts were slightly pitted and had white residue on each contact surface, although the rotor looked fine. I had a like new factory style distributor and a new rotor and cap, so I installed them, to see if the cap contacts got hot with it. The NGK plugs looked fine, so I used them in the 3.4 also. I've done nothing to the ECM to compensate any of this.

Do you see any problems I might have in the future with this set-up, and why do you think my dist. cap contacts were slightly pitted, with white residue, like it had melted the contacts ever so slightly over time? I'm thinking I should go back to the stock coil, especially if it's not doing me any good, and just making things to hot. Also, should I gap the plugs differently if I use the hotter coil? All the advertisements (including the F.S. add) say it improves everything with a little hotter coil...?? I know there must be an optimum set-up for the 2.8 and the 3.4. What are they...since I'm just kinda flying by the seat of my pants...?!

I might add...the Fiero Store sells a MSD replacement coil that provides 45000 volts, and they say it makes for better spark and improvement all around. Now my MSD looks the same, but it provides 48000 volts...so is this good, better, bad, or indifferent. For all I know, the F.S. 45000 V coil really doesn't do much of anything performance wise eather?! Expert answer on all of the above please!

[This message has been edited by hypo327 (edited 11-13-2012).]

Gap as VECI label or SM says.

White Ash is a better term... Normal on Dist Cap Terminals. White stuff is rotor metal and some crap transfer to cap terminals. Hotter coil will made that worse.

TFS just copies whatever product marketing docs...

Using Hotter coils may means coil uses more Amps and result can overheat module faster.

Again See my Cave HE Ignition

quote Originally posted by AL87: I have an MSD ignition control module (6A series)

So much misinformation in one post! The MSD 6A is not an "ICM," it's a capacitive-discharge ignition system that in the Fiero is installed between the ICM and the spark coil. The MSD works in conjunction with the stock ICM; it does not replace it. The ICM may last longer, because the MSD box does isolate the ICM from the high-voltage and high-current of the spark coil.

quote ... its variable and can be used for 4, 6, and 8 cylnder applications.

So what? So can the stock Fiero ICM and spark coil. Think about it ... How do the ICM and spark coil "know" whether they're installed in a 4, 6, or 8-cylinder engine? All they "see" is spark frequency. The MSD 6AL adds its own rev limiter, but that still doesn't affect the OEM rev limiter.

quote It is aftermarket, so I believe it'll be a higher quality and will last longer.

"Aftermarket" does not ensure "higher quality." It may mean "different" or it may just mean "cheaper." It may mean "less rigorous testing." It may mean "overdesigned," which may or may not be a good thing. It may mean "designed to avoid infringing GM's patents." It may mean smaller production volume, and thus low-volume production methods. Or it may just be a rebranded part from the same OEM manufacturer that was "selected" during final quality-control tests.

quote I think Its supposed to remove the rpm limiter and put out a longer spark to burn more fuel during combustion.

The Fiero rev limiter function is performed in the ECM, not the ICM. Installing the MSD box does not change that. It is also worth noting that ignition timing advance in the Fiero is electronic rather than mechanical; it is commanded by the ECM, but is performed by the ICM.

The MSD 6A doesn't put out a "longer spark;" it is actually a much shorter (faster) spark, although it may be "hotter." MSD does advertise that the 6A puts out multiple sparks per cylinder event below 3000 rpm, and that may indeed improve combustion efficiency slightly, especially when the engine is cold. The biggest advantage of a capacitive-discharge system like the MSD 6A is that because the rise time of the secondary (spark) voltage is very short (i.e. fast) it may be able to fire marginally fouled spark plugs that the OEM ignition system cannot.

As others have already said, in a street-driven Fiero an aftermarket ignition system is unlikely to offer any significant improvement over a healthy, properly functioning OEM system. Don't get me wrong; I've been a fan of capacitive-discharge ignition systems since the mid 1960s (my '69 Porsche 911S came equipped with one right from the factory), but you gotta' be realistic about it.


Edit: To correct technical details.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-13-2012).]

I remember back when my V6 had a distributer, it could be a pain in the butt sometimes. For example, after it rained I would sometimes get a Code 45, because the ICM mounting screws would get a little rusty from the moisture (and inhibit the ICM ground). I ended up having to slather dielectric grease all over the screws to prevent that. Plus, the old electrical connectors would sometimes 'walk' off the ICM electrical plugs (the retaining tabs were broken).

What a pain in the butt. I definitely do not miss the distributer ignition system.

But to answer the OP question, an MSD box will not replace the ICM. You'll still be subject to embarrassing roadside moments.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: The Fiero rev limiter function is performed in the ECM, not the ICM. Installing the MSD box does not change that. It is also worth noting that ignition timing advance in the Fiero is electronic rather than mechanical; it is commanded by the ECM, but is performed by the ICM.

Yes, using MSD etc box will not disable ECM rev limit. Only a reprogram ECM stops rev limit.
ICM is just a dumb switch/driver after ECM takes over timing. No Logic/commanding involved. (By-pass "signal" Active. See any Fiero SM, 6E3 in DRIVEABILITY AND EMISSIONS, Section C4 HEI)
Rev Limit in simple... ECM just interrupt sending spark on EST output.

quote Originally posted by theogre: ICM is just a dumb switch/driver after ECM takes over timing. No Logic/commanding involved.

The ECM must somehow communicate spark advance information to the ICM. Otherwise there would be no purpose to have spark advance tables in the ECM.

Edit: (I thought spark advance was communicated from the ECM to ICM via a varying DC bias voltage, but the FSM says otherwise.)

Ogre is correct. (No surprise there.) From the '88 GM/Helm FSM: When the engine is running normally, reference pulses from the pickup coil in the distributor are buffered and sent to the ECM. The ECM then calculates the correct spark advance and sends timed pulses for each ignition event back to the ICM. In this mode the ICM does indeed act as just a dumb switch. After all these years I'm still learning.

This means that you might theoretically be able to connect the ECM directly to the MSD box, bypassing the ICM, but you would still have to retain the ICM to amplify and buffer the pulses from the pickup coil to the ECM, and there would still be problems with the engine start logic. Bottom line: You still need the ICM in there, plus it allows you to bypass the MSD box and still get home.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-15-2012).]

If I was going to do this upgrade to the MSD coil, replace everything that's electrical.

-Distributor cap & rotor
-Ignition Control Module
-Pick-up coil
-ICM screws
-MSD Blaster coil

The connector shown above is the pick-up coil.

Old and new parts shouldn't be mixed. That's my opinion, and that's
what I will continue to do.

On a Duke I would just do the coil and wires and increase the gab a bit. Probably not worth the cost of a 6al.

However on my 2.9 (yes 2.9) High Compression, Cammed ported, larger injectors modified V6 with adjustable Fuel Pressure Reg. The MSD was a nice surprise when I installed it. Smoother idle, better off idle torque and it let the engine scream all the way to redline without issue. On top of all that, at cruise of 75-80mph I would get 30mpg out of that car.

Then I moved to the 4.9 The 4.9 is IIRC factory 10-1 compression. With a smaller gap on the plugs and a conservative fuel map to keep the motor glass smooth and get decent gas mileage.
The new chip I had dumped in more fuel and tweaked the timing a bit.

When I installed the FULL MSD on the 4.9, MSD Coil, 8.5mm Superconductor Wires, 6AL Box and gapped the plugs at .060 there was a remarkable change in engine operation. The extra fuel at idle smell went away. Frankly the chip was programed too rich, but the MSD's act of firing each plug several times per crank revolution solved that issue. I also noticed quicker starters, and even with the huge amount of torque the 4.9 already had, it managed to add more off idle torque. It was such a big difference when my box died and I had to go back to just the MSD coil, I thought something was wrong with the car as it tried to stall when I lifted up the clutch pedal. With the Isuzu 5spd and a 4.9 with MSD I could take off without touching the gas pedal or touching it very lightly. It was great. On several road trips I got an easy 30mpg from the 4.9 5spd. It also helped with emission's testing which made me double happy.

I came across this thread as I am about to start another thread about MSD's Digital 6 Plus box and wanted to see if anyone already had one installed.

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