This is interesting, I'd love to see this actually working.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The peak flow of an Eaton M90 at 10 psi is 550 cfm. It must run at 10,000 RPM to do that.. The M90's peak range of efficiency at 5psi stretches from 390 M^3/hr to 480 M^3/hr, or about 230 CFM to 280CFM, To make 250 HP you will need 450 cfm of air (375 C3M) flow but it all about the pressure ratio of boost possible with the supercharger/engine combination. . If you also look at the Eaton compressor map you need a pressure ratios of 1.340 for 5 psi and 3.73 for 10 psi. According to what I read your applications falls way out of the efficiency range of the M90 and thats for the more efficeint genV which you do not have. Horsepower losses also need to be considered. It will take about 20 HP right off the top to drive the supercharger to get the airflow needed to get to 250 so thats power down the drain. Thats 70% of the power lost. Am I wrong about this?

I'm guessing a stock M90 (series II) will make about 4-5 psi on a 4.9. I say this simply because I know they make about 8 psi on a stock 3800 series II. It will be enough to make a noticable differance, but nothing like 8-15 psi will do. Big question is, how much boost will a 4.9 take? Maybe conservative boost is a good thing for this engine? Might run out of air early, but how high does a 4.9 rev?

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 12-31-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: I'm guessing a stock M90 (series II) will make about 4-5 psi on a 4.9. I say this simply because I know they make about 8 psi on a stock 3800 series II. It will be enough to make a noticable differance, but nothing like 8-15 psi will do. Big question is, how much boost will a 4.9 take? Maybe conservative boost is a good thing for this engine? Might run out of air early, but how high does a 4.9 rev?

Yea I'd say conservative boost is a good thing, and it doesn't like to rev much.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Might run out of air early, but how high does a 4.9 rev?

If you go higher than 6K with the stock aluminum rocker bridges... you will pull the bolts through them. If you are going to spin the engine, it needs the allante steel rocker bridges.

I'm working on the same project but having difficulty placing the supercharger without hitting the distributor or fuel rail. I believe its about 6" from the intake manifold to the top of the distributor cap if I remember. This will make it difficult to close the decklid. Anyone have any ideas on modifying the fuel rail crossover pipe? I think in the 3800 the lines go over the supercharger.

I could offset the supercharger 4-6" towards the crank pulley but I would then need to create an accessory drive just for the supercharger. Also the sc outlet would no longer be centered on the intake port.
Its about 11.5" from pulley centerline to intake manifold center.


This pic I stole from page 2 shows what I am talking about. (Less the EGR & throttle body)


------------------
-Kyle
Email: kakagiraffe@gmail.com
Aim: Littlechugger
1988 Notchback 4.9 V8, 5spd Isuzu, Spec Stage 4
True Dual Exhaust, Delta Cam (212,000 Miles)
1992 Honda Accord LX (220,000 Miles) 5spd

[This message has been edited by arte444 (edited 01-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by arte444: I could offset the supercharger 4-6" towards the crank pulley but I would then need to create an accessory drive just for the supercharger. Also the sc outlet would no longer be centered on the intake port.

Not sure if it would work, but could you use the short snout drive of an M62 in place of the long snout drive on the M90? Then you could shift the blower toward the belt side and just make a manifold that channels the air in at an angle. Probably more work than it might sound like

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Also, where's the alternator going to go?

Not sure about that either =) Maybe on the bottom side front or rear, or not at all. Should be able to find a smaller alternator than the cadillac one and put it somewhere though.

there is a 4.9 alt relocation thread, it really easy to do as I have done it. Thing is you lose your ac

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Not sure if it would work, but could you use the short snout drive of an M62 in place of the long snout drive on the M90? Then you could shift the blower toward the belt side and just make a manifold that channels the air in at an angle. Probably more work than it might sound like

Or just use an M62 I guess?

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Or just use an M62 I guess?

That would make the "doesn't flow enough air" problem even worse.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: That would make the "doesn't flow enough air" problem even worse.

Not if...and I mean IF you use an M90 blower with an M62 snout.....or a gen 5 blower with an M62 snout....if it will fit?

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Not if...and I mean IF you use an M90 blower with an M62 snout.....or a gen 5 blower with an M62 snout....if it will fit?

Right, I know, I was just referring to the idea of using an M62 as is. Not sure if snouts are swap-able or not.

quote Originally posted by Will: My dad's done that with both a 400 TPI Chevy and a Cadillac 500. It works, but I don't like distributors. I have no doubt that it made tuning easier, but at this point the optispark is an orphan child and support is going away. There are 24x reluctor kits on the market to run Gen I SBC's using LS1 electronics (including coil per cylinder). I'd go for that. Does Robert have a dyno sheet for his 4.9?

Robert opted to use the LT1 over the LS1 computer because of its ability to control the 4T60e transmission. I'm not sure what you mean about "support", since there is a wealth of info about the Lt1 on the net...

if he were doing a manual swap, i agree, the LS1 route might be a more modern and viable option, but for those using the 4t60e, the LT1 is the way to go... plus it looks very cool

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 01-04-2012).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: If you go higher than 6K with the stock aluminum rocker bridges... you will pull the bolts through them. If you are going to spin the engine, it needs the allante steel rocker bridges.

been there - done that

So what's the status ??

I like the concept - for all those that are neysay'n, to each his own. Build it cause your can or just cause you want too!

Cheers,
Robert

quote Originally posted by 81 4.9L X-11: So what's the status ?? I like the concept - for all those that are neysay'n, to each his own. Build it cause your can or just cause you want too! Cheers, Robert

Ditto. Hey Rob, technically, shouldn't that read 5.1L X-11? the sucker IS bored 40 over

FYI, you do brilliant work.

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 01-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: Robert opted to use the LT1 over the LS1 computer because of its ability to control the 4T60e transmission. I'm not sure what you mean about "support", since there is a wealth of info about the Lt1 on the net... if he were doing a manual swap, i agree, the LS1 route might be a more modern and viable option, but for those using the 4t60e, the LT1 is the way to go... plus it looks very cool http://img.photobucket.com/...nteoptisparcoils.jpg

-LT1 specific parts are not getting more common
-Not much done with the electronics compared to the earlier or later ECM's (IE, LT1 Edit is still on the market and TunerCat has a definition file for the $EE mask, but there's nothing like a Moates Road Runner around)
-It's like the LT5... it was cool when it came out, but is now a white elephant.

Like I said before, I'd go with a 24x reluctor, LS1 computer and coils.

Whenever I see someone attempting to use a M90 supercharger I suggest that the person uses the simulator on the Eaton site.
http://autoapps.eaton.com/S...r/EngineDetails.aspx
I took info from a dyno posting by rockcrawl and plugged it into the simulator. I took the highest pulley value that didn't over rev the supercharger 2.74:1 and zero'd out the inter cooler setting. The numbers are based on a stock series 5 superchargers.
The power went from 158@4000 to 188@4000

I hope these numbers don't discourage you, but set some expectations for you.


EnginePower,129.369 Hp,175.376 Hp,187.967 Hp,176.381 Hp,157.442 Hp,157.442 Hp
EnginePressureRatio,1.762,1.857,1.916,1.958,2.004,2.004
EngineSpeed,3000,3500,4000,4500,5000,5000
NaturallyAspiratedPower,109.96 Hp,145 Hp,158 Hp,156 Hp,151 Hp,151 Hp

I won't be doing anything til my health improves

The drive ratio will be 1.9 with a 7.375" crank pulley and 3.8" sc pulley

About 50hp increase with a factory pulley

Start with 9.5:1 NA and SC, 200 HP at 4400 rpm and 70% VE

Wow, What a discussion.... I have been thinking about this for years.... Just to throw in a little more discussion.... Remember the 4.1 - 4.9 L motors can now be picked up for next to NOTHING.... I have ? 6 now not including the one in my 88 Fiero. I picked up my M-90 for $100.00 years ago... The reason I didn't go forward was the distributor issue. Now to make things more interesting.... I was planning on using a 1994 block - most ribbing for strength... 1990 4.5 crank with LONG rods for less displacement but more breathability... I have written before on the LONG stroke theory... I still say if the distributor can be tackled for little to no money... This Grin worthiness to the most valuable asset. When working on this motor think it is a 289 / 302 ford. and they can be made to perform.... What other low cost aluminum motor can you have??? All hot rodding manual labor techniques can be applied to all motors to make them work better! Now get out there and do somthing to motive me to do something... And the M-62 snout will not fit on the m-90..... I checked already...

quote Originally posted by stickpony: Robert opted to use the LT1 over the LS1 computer because of its ability to control the 4T60e transmission.

Are you talking 4T60E vice 4L60E?

My dad's Suburban is running a 4L80E with the LT1 ECM (8051 I think). It required a signal inverter on one of the shift solenoids, but that's all. I think the 80 defaults to 2nd gear with no voltage on the solenoids, while the 60 defaults to 3rd.

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: I won't be doing anything til my health improves The drive ratio will be 1.9 with a 7.375" crank pulley and 3.8" sc pulley About 50hp increase with a factory pulley Start with 9.5:1 NA and SC, 200 HP at 4400 rpm and 70% VE

Good luck and best wished on the wellness - Sunshine & vegetables !!

If ya can, keep us up on the 4.X Honda..

Cheers

.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-11-2012).]

I'll leave this right here.

http://www.britishv8.org/Ar...-V8-Supercharger.htm

------------------
-Kyle
Email: kakagiraffe@gmail.com
Aim: Littlechugger
1988 Notchback 4.9 V8, 5spd Isuzu, Spec Stage 4
True Dual Exhaust, Delta Cam (212,000 Miles)
1992 Honda Accord LX (220,000 Miles) 5spd

quote Originally posted by arte444: I'll leave this right here. http://www.britishv8.org/Ar...-V8-Supercharger.htm

Oh, my!

.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Are you talking 4T60E vice 4L60E? My dad's Suburban is running a 4L80E with the LT1 ECM (8051 I think). It required a signal inverter on one of the shift solenoids, but that's all. I think the 80 defaults to 2nd gear with no voltage on the solenoids, while the 60 defaults to 3rd.

talking the 4t60e FWD tranny. The LT1 PCM can control the 4t60e with no issues, its been documented on this forum many times. I applaud Robert for doing something that has never been done before, an LT1 ecm and optispark setup on a 4.9L, along with DIS w/coil per cylinder......

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 01-11-2012).]

The question I was trying to ask was does the LS1 computer *NOT* control the 4T60E?

quote Originally posted by arte444: I'll leave this right here. http://www.britishv8.org/Ar...-V8-Supercharger.htm

quote Originally posted by Will: The question I was trying to ask was does the LS1 computer *NOT* control the 4T60E?

it does not, at least, nobody has been able to make it do so yet... who knows though.. where there's a will, their's a way? Robert's expertise is welding, I am sure this helped him lean in the direction of the LT1, since it was probably a lot easier for him to just weld up a hybrid optisparc/ distributor unit. The cool thing is, he took it a step fruther and converted the HEI system to DIS, awesome work.

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 01-13-2012).]

Hmm... I know there are some changes to the way the TCC and pressure control solenoids operates, but I don't know the details right off.

Although I would expect that an LS1 computer could control a 4T65E...

Let me dig around, I know that someone used a TCM (trans controller) from a 6.2 diesel 4L80E and got it to work on a 4t65e trans.

quote Originally posted by chetw77cruiser: Let me dig around, I know that someone used a TCM (trans controller) from a 6.2 diesel 4L80E and got it to work on a 4t65e trans.

we are talkking about the ls1 pcm though, not a separate tcm

I know, just an idea if anyone is interested.

Thanx for the props Mr Pony, but I’m no expert – more of a monkey with a hammer… and a welder! I think the LT1 PCM would work great for this Supercharger project. The SC throttle body uses an IAC and the MAF could be rewired, although I’d recommend using the LT1 MAF (had problems with 3800SC MAF). The distributor & coil brackets would be the only fabrication needed and I’m guess that won’t be an issue - I'd offer but looks like your well ahead on fab skillz. So basically splicing a harness and it would all plug & play. The biggest bonus – you won’t have clearance issue with the dizzy now!

Well thinking about it, you’d need a solution for the SC bypass solenoid…

PS – that British V8 has some fantastic work!

Finally finished the motor rebuild. No upgrades just rebuilt

Within the next month this project will be first priority. The Civic is getting painted and prepped for a couple magazine shoots. Hopefully, things will be moving quickly so we will have to have an upgrade path available

Do you have any more pics if your civic project?

Cheers