Max, looks great and does clean up the intake of the 4.9. on an unrelated thought, maybe you could start your own thread...i would hate to see you associated with FOY.
Max, looks great and does clean up the intake of the 4.9. on an unrelated thought, maybe you could start your own thread...i would hate to see you associated with FOY.
Yea, I should....But Ive already posted so much on this thread.... Im a bit lazy to transfer all the info and pics to a new thread.
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02:49 AM
PFF
System Bot
ace5514 Member
Posts: 692 From: west long branch, nj, usa Registered: Nov 2008
yes i see your point. question... can you still service the alternator and distributor with out removing the s/c? this set up looks great, i can't wait to see what it can do. you should make paterns or drawing specs so this can be reproduced. al
yes i see your point. question... can you still service the alternator and distributor with out removing the s/c? this set up looks great, i can't wait to see what it can do. you should make paterns or drawing specs so this can be reproduced. al
Unfortunately... No... supercharger will need to be removed before I can remove the alternator or distributor cap.
Getting closer to starting the engine.... this is what a have left to do....
1... Plug some holes in the supercharger (I will not use EGR, purge valve port, etc) 2... Install the new 3 inch supercharger pulley I just bought... ( stock size is 3.8 inches ) 3... Buy new allante plenum gasket and bolt down my custom plenum box. 4... Buy new supercharger gasket and bolt down supercharger. 5... Splice in new connectors for the TPS and IAC on the northstar throttle. 6... Run vacuum hoses to power brake booster, MAP sensor, fuel regulator, PCV, etc. 7... Find and install correct size serpentine belt.
And then start the engine for the first time with a supercharger !!!!!
Two things to look out for... vacuum leaks and belt alignment ( high idle rpm and/or belt squeeling )
To actually drive the car down the road... I will need to complete the following....
1... Fabricate a throttle cable mount to the northstat throittle. 2... Run tubing from throttle to a larger air filter away from hot engine bay.
At this point I can drive the car slow and easy.... To floor it, I will need to do the following....
1... Install an MSD boost timing box to adjust ignition timing during boost. 2... Install larger injectors and lower fuel pressure to 30 psi with an adjustable fuel regulator. 3... Install a rising rate fuel regulator in the return line to increase fuel pressure as boost rises. 4... Install the Allante steel rocker arm rails and stiffer valve springs. 5... Install an oil cooler
At this point I can floor it !!!!
Two things to look out for.... preignition and clutch slipping
I will probably need to run high octane... If the octane needed is higher than 93 octane .... then I may have to remove the heads and port the chambers to a lower compression ratio.
.... as for the clutch... it was barely sufficient for the 4.9... and I may have to change to a spec clutch.
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03:12 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
To get it running *RIGHT* you'll need tunable engine management.
The RRFP and boost timing box are bandaids and you'll be taking a risk with the health of your engine by using them.
Also, I may have asked this before... Will you be using the supercharger bypass valve?
Will I agree with you most of the time, but in this case, I think this simple of a setup he is going to be fine with a RRFPR and BTR.
If you are going to try and eek out every last pony and you ARE experienced with stand alone units its a great way to go.
However we have a local Fiero guy that built his own stand alone unit for a Turbo 2.8 thinking it would allow him to make the car perfect. However he found that in low boost under 10psi the stock ECM with a boost timing retard and rising rate fuel pressure regulator had the car running better than the stand alone. GM did a pretty decent job with the timing and fuel curve, and adding a small amount of boost really only needs to have the fuel and timing tweaked a tiny bit to get probably 85% of the power out.
A stand alone is great if you are experienced with tuning and are going to the expense of Dyno Tuning the car.
[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 03-17-2013).]
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03:13 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Will I agree with you most of the time, but in this case, I think this simple of a setup he is going to be fine with a RRFPR and BTR.
If you are going to try and eek out every last pony and you ARE experienced with stand alone units its a great way to go.
However we have a local Fiero guy that built his own stand alone unit for a Turbo 2.8 thinking it would allow him to make the car perfect. However he found that in low boost under 10psi the stock ECM with a boost timing retard and rising rate fuel pressure regulator had the car running better than the stand alone. GM did a pretty decent job with the timing and fuel curve, and adding a small amount of boost really only needs to have the fuel and timing tweaked a tiny bit to get probably 85% of the power out.
A stand alone is great if you are experienced with tuning and are going to the expense of Dyno Tuning the car.
Did Cliff enable nested quotes? Edit: I guess not.
If he put it together himself, I'm guessing it's a MegaSquirt. While MS's primary vritue is simplicity and it's just doesn't have a wide range of capabilities, enough people have made enough power with it that your story, as told, sounds like operator error.
MS isn't the only option. I think a far more preferable option would be a 7730 with the "boosted $8D" code mask developed as an open-source project on www.ThirdGen.org would be a great option for you. The engineering in OE ECM's *AND* OE Code is far superior to comparable aftermarket electronics, *ESPECIALLY* MS.
Without the bypass, your supercharger could run pretty hot...
You talk about dyno tuning like it's an unnecessary expense... I see NOT Dyno tuning as an unnecessary risk. If you get to the point at which you've put 100+ hours and a couple to a few thousand dollars into an engine, you may change your mind.
You've done a lot of fab work and obviously put a lot of effort in. You're much closer to succeeding than any of the dreamers I've seen post about supercharged 4.9's recently. Set yourself up for success now so the job of getting it running and keeping it running is easier down the road.
See why Gordon Murray said "The automotive problem is fundamentally one of packaging"?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-17-2013).]
Did Cliff enable nested quotes? Edit: I guess not.
If he put it together himself, I'm guessing it's a MegaSquirt. While MS's primary vritue is simplicity and it's just doesn't have a wide range of capabilities, enough people have made enough power with it that your story, as told, sounds like operator error.
MS isn't the only option. I think a far more preferable option would be a 7730 with the "boosted $8D" code mask developed as an open-source project on www.ThirdGen.org would be a great option for you. The engineering in OE ECM's *AND* OE Code is far superior to comparable aftermarket electronics, *ESPECIALLY* MS.
Without the bypass, your supercharger could run pretty hot...
You talk about dyno tuning like it's an unnecessary expense... I see NOT Dyno tuning as an unnecessary risk. If you get to the point at which you've put 100+ hours and a couple to a few thousand dollars into an engine, you may change your mind.
You've done a lot of fab work and obviously put a lot of effort in. You're much closer to succeeding than any of the dreamers I've seen post about supercharged 4.9's recently. Set yourself up for success now so the job of getting it running and keeping it running is easier down the road.
See why Gordon Murray said "The automotive problem is fundamentally one of packaging"?
Thanks for your input Will ... I agree with much of what you are saying.
But...
... I don't think the dyno shop is going to give me a perfect remap on my ECM.... They will toss my car on the dyno... Get the ECM tuned at WOT (wide open throttle)... charge me several hundered dollars.... and then I am stuck with the progamming they gave me and hope that it is the best possible tune I can have when I take it to the quarter mile.
I had a friend that took his turbo charged mustang to get dyno tuned with disappointing results.... His car would miss and had flat spots during the trip up the quarter mile...that required another expensive run at the dyno shop to correct the problem.
I talked to another guy at the track that had his corvette dyno tuned at another shop... and his car ran great on the quarter mile... but on the street ...he said he noticed that fuel economy was cut in half !!....He told me that he would carry around two ECMs... one for racing and another unhacked ecm for city driving.
Me... Im gonna try to leave the factory tuning alone. The factory has spent hundereds of hours of R&R... no dyno shop or ecm "tuner" will give you that
Yes... fuel and ignition demands change when an engine gets boosted.... But for the most part... the factory settings are the same until that boost kicks in.... and that is where the MSD ignition box and the rising rate regulator come in.
These items are adjustable.... If you ran too lean or too rich on your last run....you can adjust it.... Igniton timing was too advanced or retaded? ...adjust it.
There is no need to run back to the dyno shop and get your ecm retuned.
When your cruzing ... The factory ecm is working the way it should... relying on inputs from the oxygen sensor and other sensors for good fuel economy.
[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 03-19-2013).]
Here is some good info on getting additional fuel needed in boosted conversions....
The rising rate regulator method is good for low boost applications. About 7 psi or less. The rising rate regulator needs to be located in the fuel RETURN line. For most street applications you would want about a 6 to 1 rate regulator, meaning that for every one pound of boost the regulator will increase fuel pressure 6 psi higher.
So assuming you have a 45 psi stock fuel regulator, the additional rising rate regulator will raise fuel pressure as shown below...
Most stock injectors start to malfuntion at 85 to 95 psi depending on type and design.
So what if you want to run a little higher boost than this?
Then you need to switch to larger injectors.
So now your going to run pig rich all the time?? Yep Now at idle you may smell a little gas out of your tail pipe, and fuel economy will go down.
So you lower base fuel pressure with an adjustable fuel regulator.
You can either replace your stock regulator with an adjustable regulator, or you can put your adjustable regulator in the fuel SUPPLY line before the stock regulator. This will correct your rich condition with larger injectors.
Now don't go and get the biggest injectors you can find. With oversized injectors, you will need to lower the base pressure so low that the injectors with not spray a fine mist anymore. More like an inconsistant dripping will occur, and your idle will be horrible. Just get injectors big enough for the job. You don't want to run less than 20 psi on port injectors.
Now lets do some more math with some larger injectors and a lower base psi to compensate...
These graphs give you a general idea. Not an exact science. In other words you may, (or probably will) need to play around with your regulator settings and/or injectors sizes to get things dialed in correctly.
good luck!
[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 03-19-2013).]
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02:53 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
GM put far more development into the program and electronics, but the original calibration becomes less and less useful the further you get from the OE hard parts combination.
If you don't like the work a tuning shop does, find a different shop. There are all kinds of hacks on the market, but if you find one who knows his stuff, not only does your car work better, you may be able to learn a few things. Just like any other service, if you don't do your homework and ask around, you're going to get what you're going to get.
quote
Originally posted by MaxCubes: Not an exact science.
Very telling.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-19-2013).]
Actually it is a science,EFI works according to Ideal Gas Law and you account for variables when you tune right? That little chip is filled with all kinds of cool scientific-y calculations,just gotta give it the right info for what your desired result is based on your known constants or measurements. Wibbly wobbely timey wimey and all that lol.
You'll get er dun,it's a great project!
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02:20 AM
BV MotorSports Member
Posts: 4821 From: Oak Hill, WV Registered: May 2001
Actually it is a science,EFI works according to Ideal Gas Law and you account for variables when you tune right? That little chip is filled with all kinds of cool scientific-y calculations,just gotta give it the right info for what your desired result is based on your known constants or measurements. Wibbly wobbely timey wimey and all that lol.
You'll get er dun,it's a great project!
I agree that EFI is, but the quote is from the OP's article on RRFPR, which is not an exact science.
Also, fuel calculations don't necassarily follow the ideal gas law.
