quote Originally posted by Patrick: You, perhaps? It's one thing for FOY to regard my comments in a totally negative fashion, even if they weren't meant that way. That's his decision. But I don't take kindly to some guy (who's not Cliff Pennock) telling me when I can or can't post here. That's my decision. Oh, and thank-you for the negs. Much obliged.

Evidently you must have a dog in this fight, or some other interest?

Get off his back and let him do his work. You're not being helpful or constructive.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Oh, and thank-you for the negs. Much obliged.

You got it

Keep at it FOY, sorry that you're being badgered. Some people are foaming at the mouth looking for the next Lloyde or Whodeanie, must be rough being a vendor here...

So, uhh... back to our regularly scheduled build thread?

I'm interested in the same thing as everyone else here... seeing a 4.9 get built up to make some power, and to be reliable. I wish to see FOY succeed. I'd like to witness a positive outcome for both the vendor and the customer.

I was actually hoping to have the car back or an eta of having the car back by today/tonight. FOY any chance on an update?

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

One of the plug wires just wasn't pushed on all the way lol idles much better now. In the morning Michael is going to follow me on a drive to Seattle and back, going through town so we can make sure everything is perfect

I can't imagine anything going wrong AGAIN, so we should be able to head up to you in the evening. If we get done early enough we are going to try and stop into SpeedFactory before they close for a quick run, then drive to you

[This message has been edited by FriendOfYours (edited 12-05-2012).]

On a side note, Patrick is a member of our local Fiero club and I think he was just trying to find out why the car has been delayed so many times, and at least a part in my fault I came in here saying that I was eager to get it back, and couldn't wait to have it, and so on and so on, then not to have it back, he may have felt a little bad for me and was trying to stick up for me.

So you can cut him a little slack. I am sure FOY is doing their best and Patrick is just kind of keeping an eye out to make sure forum members and friends don't get taken advantage of.

So lets all take a big deep breath and relax.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

I'm not worried about him! I didn't know you guys were buddies and good on him for looking out for you

I'm sorry if it appeared I was coming on too strong, but Dave has had a helluva last couple of years with private matters, and I just didn't want to see him get hurt. I know how much he cares about that car.

Group Hug????

or

Pictures of the finished build

Forget the group hugs, we need group booze. Margarita's and Cranberry Vodka after this car is delivered. Well maybe the night after the car is delivered as I'll be drawing too much attention on the road the night I get the car, LOL, I'll be testing out that new suspension in a rather sideways fashion and with our near zero tolerance for booze and cars here, I'd like to keep that car in my hands for as long as possible. (not that I drink and drive)

Its just been a long time coming. Much longer than just the time the car has been at FOY. I built the car back in I believe 2005 in an 85GT which lasted a few years, and then stripped the 85GT putting the interior and body and drivetrain into the 87GT over the course of a year, then the engine developed several issues and been parked while I have been driving my 88GT. Although I love my 88GT, it just does not share a candle to the fun of my 4.9 grabbing gears in a 5spd V8 Fiero is just one of those things that can't be explained. Kinda like trying to explain an orgasm to a virgin.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 12-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Forget the group hugs... Kinda like trying to explain an orgasm to a virgin.

...

This is why David and I don't hug.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: ... This is why David and I don't hug.

Too funny........

Oh Come On Patty, Sweetie, Darling, LOL..........

Through all the Fights, Disagreements and frustration that the 2 of us have had between us. I'll always have respect for your ability to stand up and say what you please when you please. At times you have been a HUGE PIMA, but as I have said, behind your back many a time. Patrick may be a PITA, be he is exactly the kinda guy we need here. (referring to the club) 90% of our members just kinda sit back and watch and say nothing, you on the other hand, say your piece, argue my piece, then I think argue back at your own suggestion, then argue that same topic with 5 other people. Its a great tactic, as it gets people talking and subjects finally get discussed. You have a Huge Red Bar, but guess what, you are still here and that's because at least as many people that don't like you, really do want you here. You have the ability of getting things done. Sometimes you do go a bit overboard and have been asked to clam down.

I'll see ya on Saturday. You are coming right? Especially if I get this car makes it here. I know you said you were deeply disappointed in a few other 4.9 cars you rode in, and I'd like to show you what a properly running 4.9 5spd feels like. I just hope we don't have snow on the ground.


P.S. FOY, Wakee Wakee, Its 6am, time to rise and shine, time to fill that tank, check that air, (especially the rear tires), check the oil and trans fluid, top up the cooling system, and hit the highway. Call me on my Universal Phone line, 778-394-7717 or text me at 604-807-2623 to let me know how the test drive is going. If your cell has a problem getting through to my CDN Number, feel free to call or text my US phone, I'll try to have it charged and handy.

If you don't already have it, my home address is

16908 104th Ave.
Surrey B.C.
V4N 4N2

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

Capt
Keep us posted on the 4.9. You know I am interested in anything/everything 4.9 in a Fiero. Expecting my ECM & reprogrammed chip back any day. Will take some time away durning Christmas. After that looking at nitrous setup as we spoke about. Thanks for your help.

Merry Christmas all.

DARKWING
Mike Parker

Well according to his post yesterday, he was going to be out driving the car in and around Seattle Traffic to give it a good shake down and see just how it handles and maybe even swing by and get it on a Dyno to see how much power it really makes. Then if all goes well, he would try and drive it the 180 odd miles up to my place and drop it off. Its a bit complicated as they will need to clear customs with the car, but that was the deal made in exchange for me making the wasted trip down to get the car and waiting around for several hours just to find out it was not coming.

If they make it tonight, I'll be amazed and ecstatic. If not, well.... with this many delays, its pretty much the norm. I really hate to say it this way, but at first in the beginning it was butterflies in my stomach waiting for it show up, now its knots in my stomach hoping it shows up.

I'm sorry Junior, but I am just frustrated at this point. Maybe its cause I am too over tired right now didn't get any sleep last night and just ugh.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

I cured my frustration issue by owning several Fieros. If one's in the shop, you drive another.

Engine #2 is toast.



I'm coming to the conclusion that this engine can't handle consecutive 5800+ shifts or we are just getting junk blocks. Absolutely no knock, runs great, and then poof. Went to pull the heads off the other motor and the inboard head bolts on the even side all had maybe 10lbs on them, the threads were completely ruined

Calling you now Dave to figure out where to go from here

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: Engine #2 is toast. I'm coming to the conclusion that this engine can't handle consecutive 5800+ shifts or we are just getting junk blocks. Absolutely no knock, runs great, and then poof. Went to pull the heads off the other motor and the inboard head bolts on the even side all had maybe 10lbs on them, the threads were completely ruined Calling you now Dave to figure out where to go from here

I've always believed that the 4.9L engine is just not designed for use at RPM's higher than about 5,000. It's makes for an economical swap and provides the Fiero with a reliable low RPM torque engine having small valves, small ports for use in a heavy luxury car made to provide smooth highway cruising and good mileage. For this purpose it does well.
As for a rebuild, you cannot re-use head bolts on this engine as they are torque to yield. Brand new ones are impossible to find.
It might be best to secure a good used engine ( they seem to be cheap and available) , improve the intake system, exhaust and ignition and leave them be. You have every right to disagree but in reality this engine is not a small block Chevy. It is commendable that you tried to break new ground but sometimes the people that have been there, done that have the best info.
Am I wrong about this?

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Yes. This car was at least as quick as our 12s 3800, and I think we are just unlucky. The ports are small but csn be significantly opened up and if the block could handle it, it was pulling to 6k easily. The head bolts are not TTY. NOT TTY. Reuse them again and again

Dave said he was constantly shifting above 6 but broke the rocker guide. We have been using our steel ones so the block is the next weak line apparently. I'm thinking we may just go with aluminum guides and keep it under 5800

FieroMaster88, PBJ, Myself and I am sure many others are running these motors past 6000rpms on the 1-2 shift, with the Delta Cam and Allante Intake they still make power to over 5000 and shifting at 6000 keeps you right in the center of the power curve on the 2-3 and 3-4 shift. I can't think of his name but the Moose Fella in Alberta I'll bet has had his motor on the high side of 6000 at least a few times. I know we don't like to talk about MTA on here, but he is another one that has been there, and Ryan from the Fiero Racing List that built the very first Cadero can also attest to this. He raced a 4.9 Fiero on the track for more seasons than I can count.

I ran that motor to well past redline so many times that I split the rocker support beam and only after hitting it with the 100hp Nitrous Shot and not retarding the timing at all, I finally slipped a head gasket, and that was not even super severe either. As I still drove the car to and from a club meeting with the nitrous in use. Yes I was getting air into the cooling system but not like jet engine fast.

These blocks don't crack that easy. What's the guy on here that did the crazy roller valve train and a carb on a 4.9 without any issue.

There has got to be something not right with the setup.

I know from talking to the guys on the Cadillac forum that doing head bolts on these motors is a nightmare. Even the simple act of re-torquing the bolts for safety. (not a tear down, just checking the torque) Can cause the threads to let go. The threads in the block are the problems. Most people gently back out all the bolts then heli-coil every single hole. It was a task I did not feel comfortable doing. Heck I make sure and give myself lots of time and make a list of the order when I am doing head bolts on a simple 60 degree V6. On a V6 I only use the bolts twice. Then toss and get new ones. I don't know about the 4.9 ones so I can't comment.

Here are my ramblings.

Are the replacement steel supports made wrong, causing something to be pulling up, or twisting something that should not be twisted? Possibley putting too much pressure on the lifters bottoming them out.
Is the cam wrong, causing spring bind pushing up on the heads causing some un-even pressure allowing a weak spot to be created in the head?

Is there a problem with the coolant routing allowing a hot spot to be created causing the block and heads to expand at different rates, fast enough that when lots of high rpm load is applied it lets go.

How bout the lower intake, I know its tweaked a lot, is there a chance we are into a water jacket, or an un-even bolt torque? Was the angle of the matting surface between the lower intake and the heads changed?

Computer program, I know you had to change my program on my chip as you said it was running too rich? Is it possible that its so lean that the combustion chamber temps are so hot that its frying things? I know retarded timing and lean can run smooth as a baby's but, until (on a 2.8) it starts to glow like a 2 headed frog in a nuclear waste treatment pond, then overheats and blows up. Main cooling system shows nice and cool, however pockets of hot water are turning to vapor around the heads and destroying thread sealant in the head bolts until they work their way loose and POP goes a head gasket.

Hey is there a chance in hell we could make head studs for this thing? Probably impossible to find long enough rod hard enough, and if we did it would be worth more than an entire SBC Swap.

I know these motors are not made out of glass. I did at least 2 years of daily driving hard abuse and destroyed several trans axles, completely destroyed a centerforce clutch, had a deal with the local tire shop to exchange a set of good rear tires every 30 days. I drove my car with the 4.9 in it from Surrey BC to Aurora Oregon, to Astoria Oregon, and down the coast and back with my foot planted most of the time. Even with all that, the motor had no issues.

To have 2 perfectly good motors go POP this fast just due to shifting at 6000 rpms, there MUST be something more to it than RPMS. I could see maybe 7500rpms but that should take out the crank before cracking the block. Unless these motors had problems from the get go, a head that was weak, not blown, and was fine under normal use, but could not handle a good heat up.

There has to more to it. Simple as that.

I am beating my head against a wall here, this will probably be my last post of the night, as I am going to get the kids and wife to bed, then drown myself in a bottle of Vodka and a good car movie.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: I know from talking to the guys on the Cadillac forum that doing head bolts on these motors is a nightmare. Even the simple act of re-torquing the bolts for safety. (not a tear down, just checking the torque) Can cause the threads to let go. The threads in the block are the problems. Most people gently back out all the bolts then heli-coil every single hole. It was a task I did not feel comfortable doing. Hey is there a chance in hell we could make head studs for this thing? Probably impossible to find long enough rod hard enough, and if we did it would be worth more than an entire SBC Swap.

Dave (and/or FOY), I'm just making a wild suggestion here, in case it might be worthwhile... Steve Simpson (fourpoint9) of Jet City Fieros down in Washington State has a friend (Larry) who had a 4.9 Fiero which was rebuilt using (more easily accessible) oversize "standard" head bolts. The block was drilled and heli-coil inserts* were used. It seemed to work. Steve or his friend might have some info regarding this if somehow it might prove to be beneficial.

* After reading Will's post below, I should mention that I have no idea if it was heli-coil inserts which were used or "solid" inserts.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-07-2012).]

This is why its called " breaking" new ground..........

Sad for both of you, lots of hard work and time on FOY's part, and waiting for your car to come back is always hard. Stick with it, you'll get the problem identified and solved.

I love my 4.9/4T60E Formula. But if I was going for more power, it would be the LS route - stupid power right out of the box with nearly unlimited future potential.

Again, hang in there -to you two are a good team - you'll get it figured out!

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: Yes. This car was at least as quick as our 12s 3800, and I think we are just unlucky. The ports are small but csn be significantly opened up and if the block could handle it, it was pulling to 6k easily. The head bolts are not TTY. NOT TTY. Reuse them again and again Dave said he was constantly shifting above 6 but broke the rocker guide. We have been using our steel ones so the block is the next weak line apparently. I'm thinking we may just go with aluminum guides and keep it under 5800

If you stay with it, you may hit on the right formula but evaluate the amount of labor put into the project and the amount of work that might be necessary to get it right. You claim that the head bolts are not torque to yield. You've got me thinking. so to be fair I'm going to open the manual right now to see if I am wrong. Can't find any reference to TTY so you are correct.
The 4.9L caddy engine is no doubt a great reliable, long lasting engine and a huge upgrade over the 2.8L. It gives excellent smooth highway crusing and good gas mileage. I still hope that the project ultimately results in success but as a performance platform I still have serious doubts about this powerplant.


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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-07-2012).]

This isn't my choice of gofast engine either, but there is untapped potential there. I've got my factory service manual right here, no mention of head bolt replacement and the fact that I've done a handful of headgaskets on these and have never had a problem. Aside from these modded motors of course

This is first time we've had this combination and I haven't yet figured out what is going on. Hopefully, we get it all squared away and we can routinely mod like this

[This message has been edited by FriendOfYours (edited 12-07-2012).]

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: Engine #2 is toast. http://i1249.photobucket.co..._20121206_165521.jpg I'm coming to the conclusion that this engine can't handle consecutive 5800+ shifts or we are just getting junk blocks. Absolutely no knock, runs great, and then poof. Went to pull the heads off the other motor and the inboard head bolts on the even side all had maybe 10lbs on them, the threads were completely ruined

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: Yes. This car was at least as quick as our 12s 3800, and I think we are just unlucky. The ports are small but csn be significantly opened up and if the block could handle it, it was pulling to 6k easily. The head bolts are not TTY. NOT TTY. Reuse them again and again Dave said he was constantly shifting above 6 but broke the rocker guide. We have been using our steel ones so the block is the next weak line apparently. I'm thinking we may just go with aluminum guides and keep it under 5800

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Most people gently back out all the bolts then heli-coil every single hole.

Helicoils are a *REALLY* BAD idea. They can't take the tension that a fastener like a head bolt needs. The Northstar community has learned this already.
You need a solid insert, like these: http://www.timesert.com/html/gm.html

If you read up on www.cadillacforums.com you'll find that this is VERY common on 4.9's, just like Northstars.

The problem isn't any assembly error or setup problem. It's just that the threads in the block corrode and weaken. Steel inserts are the only long-term fix.

I've installed Time Serts in my Northstar block and have had no problems. Wcapman and I installed inserts in his fully assembled short block by applying packing tape to the deck surface to keep the chips out of the engine. I don't think that's viable for the 4.9 because the bolt holes are open to the valley and oil drain back holes, but you might be able to make it work.
Otherwise, you'll need to strip it down to a bare block to install the inserts.

If you feel the need to go beyond the stock head bolts:
ARP part number 204-4204 is a head stud kit listed for VW 4 cylinder engines. They are the right size, length and pitch to work on the Northstar, which of course needs two kits. I don't know if they are adaptible to the 4.9 or not.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: As for a rebuild, you cannot re-use head bolts on this engine as they are torque to yield. Am I wrong about this?

While in some applications, the bolts have a limited life in terms of the number of torque cycles, head bolts are *VERY* *RARELY* TTY. The torque + angle procedure is used to assure that the head gasket is properly compressed.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-07-2012).]

Helicoils work great as long as you use the actual GM kit with the 1.5" inserts. We've used them on all the 1,3,4 everytime we do a headgasket

Helicoils are the approved thread repair for the 4.9 but are NOT recommended for the N* as the bolts are smaller and hold more tq

Factory tq values 38 - 68 - 90 for 1,3,4

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: Helicoils work great as long as you use the actual GM kit with the 1.5" inserts. We've used them on all the 1,3,4 everytime we do a headgasket Helicoils are the approved thread repair for the 4.9 but are NOT recommended for the N* as the bolts are smaller and hold more tq Factory tq values 38 - 68 - 90 for 1,3,4

What's "1,3,4"?

I strongly suggest time serts... especially since your customer wants to use N2O...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126271.html

My personal opinion is that I'd rather build an anvil I know can take the abuse than build something that *should* work and have it come back when it doesn't.

What pistons are in the engine?
I have a set of 93-95 Northstar pistons (1.5, 1.5, 3.0 ring pack vice the 96-99 1.2, 1.5, 3.0) on the shelf, with ceramic and moly coatings. Interested?

quote Originally posted by Will: What's "1,3,4"? I strongly suggest time serts... especially since your customer wants to use N2O... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126271.html My personal opinion is that I'd rather build an anvil I know can take the abuse than build something that *should* work and have it come back when it doesn't. What pistons are in the engine? I have a set of 93-95 Northstar pistons (1.5, 1.5, 3.0 ring pack vice the 96-99 1.2, 1.5, 3.0) on the shelf, with ceramic and moly coatings. Interested?

The 1,3 4 reference is for those head bolts receiving a different torque value than the other head bolts on the 4.9L. Strange but true. .

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I was going to do this via email or PM, but in an effort to keep this 100% above board and let the forum know where I stand on this, I decided to post it here.

To: FOY

You asked me on the phone what I wanted you to do faced with not one but two failed motors. Well I was so stunned at the time we spoke on the phone I didn't know what to say, I even offered to have you put "something else" in the car. Anything with similar performance levels. You said converting to anything else would require a full conversion and be too costly. I understand and said Ok, but I still didn't answer you on what I wanted you to do.

Well here is my answer.

I don't believe any "good" motor would explode that quickly and frankly neither did you, or you would not have agreed to build it. You said your prototype intake would be the best thing to happen to the 4.9 and make it a real performer. I was hesitant at first but after a quick think about it, I paid a deposit on the spot and said, well in for a penny in for a pound. I agreed to bring the car to you in a few weeks, and left the engine you provided with you so you could start prepping it for when my car got their. I was really hoping for a 30 day turn around from when I got the car to you and when I could pick it up. We later added on a few extras like suspension work and alignment, which I paid for. Which extended the time frame. There were problems, and I waited, there were unforeseen issues, and I said, yes I am frustrated, really frustrated, but there is no point in getting mad. When you said the car was done and ready to go but I was unable to go pick it up, I paid the balance and we made arrangements that in a week or so I would meet you to pick up the car. When I got their, that didn't happen due to problems. Ok I am really starting to pull my hair out here. However again, getting really angry and throwing fits is not going to do anyone any good. I realize you are just as frustrated at what was suppose to be a simple quick drop and swap, with some extra cool parts added on, and you would finally be able to test a 4.9 with your new parts to show how much power it actually made. I know you said your main mechanic quit on you 1/2 way through this job, which is cause for the delays.
This has turned into a real nightmare for the both of us. You said the people that supplied you the motors will at least warranty them, so you are not out of pocket on them, which is good. Maybe you can take the blown motor to them, and see if you can get your money back but let you keep the core and use the balance of the refund to fix the heads.

What I would like done, is find or assemble a good 4.9, install the parts promised, check to make sure none of the parts are defective or made incorrectly. Dyno test the motor with a rev limit at 5500. Once we know the replacement engine won't explode, drive it up to me in BC and drop it off. I am not asking for a refund, or reimbursement for my trip down, I just want what we agreed on.


P.S.

I just want to add to this, I have done my best to be a good and patient customer and you have done your best to be a good business with me. You have sent me emails and 90% of the time when I called you answered your phone. Heck you even let me sleep on your couch instead of having to pay for a hotel when I came down. I don't have any ill will toward you as a person. This has just been an unfortunate situation that neither one of us could have foreseen.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

Capt. Such a shame ! I wish you luck getting some satisfaction.

As a fellow 4.9 owner, and potential modder who is always looking for "the next best thing", I am also hoping for a good outcome to this.

I haven't commented before now, but I am having trouble believing that the steel rocker supports, or anything else "mechanical" (edit: including high RPMs) have anything to do with the head gasket leaks. (At least I think that was the implication. I haven't reread the thread.)
I'm thinking that something is seriously wrong with the tune, or at least the fueling, that is not immediately showing up as a performance issue or audible indication (knock.) Maybe something as simple as an injector that is flow limited at the upper limits. Wasn't it the same cylinder both times?
Engines leaning out and blowing headgaskets under stress is nothing new. Even happened to Hugh Lemma's twin turbo 383. And that wasn't a used motor. Everything in that build was made of near-unobtainium.

Regroup and go back to basics. Maybe have the injectors flow tested.
Since the intake flow is an "unknown", I might suggest a wideband be plumbed into the exhaust, and measurements made, anytime the hammer is dropped.
Don't keep throwing engines at it.
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Raydar
88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550

Praise the Lowered!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-08-2012).]

For every problem there is a solution. I haven't had an engine let go in the 30 or so installs that I've done but some jobs just don't go easily. We've all made errors and had to take corrective action.
This situation is not unique. What I believe may be happening here is that you are using engines that have been used in low RPM driving situations all of their lives. People who own Cadillacs seldom drag race or go all out. They are typically owned by older drivers that are soft on the pedal. Once an engine has been used that way it won't survive performance use. At least that's what my experience has shown.
Let's look at the positive side. We are now close to winter and the car hobbyist season is coming to an end. Most car hobbyists who live in the colder climates only drive in spring-summer and fall. Point is that you and FOY have time to sit back, unwind, regroup, have a drink and plan the next step. FOY is obviously trying to do the right thing, trying to do what the customer wants and working with a platform that IMO is not easily modified for performance. I don't believe that there are many performance experts on this engine platform and I am not even sure that there are even competent rebuilders who can put together this engine. Read the factory manual. The rebuild procedure is more complex than a SBC, 60* V6, 3800 etc. For instance just the measurement, fitting and index procedure for the cylinder liners is quite complex and needs to be followed precisely.
If you want to still stay with a 4.9L and want more beef; my suggestion is to find a sound low mileage engine (or professionally rebuilt engine). Do not open up the internals but install it as is. Then go out and get a turbo. Size it on the smaller side ala PBJ.. FOY has good fabrication skills and should be able to plumb it easily. Limit boost to 5-6 psi, tune a bit and keep the red line to 5000. While this may not be the solution that you are looking for, that would be my approach. Which ever way to decide to go, good luck with the project and relax ,you will be back on the road enjoying it in 2013.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The 1,3 4 reference is for those head bolts receiving a different torque value than the other head bolts on the 4.9L. Strange but true. .

That's what I was guessing.

I reached out to a few of my off forum 4.9 friends and these were a couple reply's I got from them.


The first is from Tom Hill, of Team Python racing that runs the Pylon Python 4.9 Fiero Race car.

From Tom:

The only reason this engine can't handle sustained 6000 rpm "abuse" is the valve springs. If you are still using stock valve springs they have a tendency to break at that rpm range. Other than that, if the engine is tuned properly, I see no reason you can't be in that rpm band on a routine basis. Our engine was bored, used N* full floating pistons, beehive springs with the spring seats machined, Ford SVT roller rockers on a billet girdle, Allante intake with a modified BBK throttle body, and Windsor pushrods. With a TM125 transmission and a 3.33 final drive, this thing could fry 12 inch slicks on command.

Your engines blowing up may be just a coincidence but I doubt it. These engines are pretty rugged. It would be interesting to take them apart to see just what failed.

Tom Hill
Team Python


The 2nd Reply is from George Ryan George has explained things to me for years regarding what does and does not work on the swaps, including the idea of building a hybrid 4.9 with Northstar parts.

From George:

Mine has N* pistons (of course the sleeves were also machined), Delta cam with longer pushrods with Ford lifters, , Allante intake, the steel rocker supports, 4.1 exhaust manifolds into 2.5" head pipes (goes into a 2-into-1 collector and a single 3.5" tailpipe) and the engine has never given me any problems.

It's predecessor had over 10 years of autocrossing, track days, and a few runs up the 1/4 mile - to practice my ProSolo starts on the Sportsman tree your understand :-) - and a few light-to-light blasts. That engine also had the same cam, lifters, and intake (but it wasn't a 5.0 and it had a smaller exhaust). The only reason I canned it was that I overheated it a couple times before I discovered a leaky water pump and it was starting to lose power. Until it started the overheating problerm this engine took a beating without a whimper.

That is not to say that I didn't have problems - I ate 5 Isuzu transmissions before I put a professionally rebuilt tranny with a Gr8Grip in it. No problems since - - - .

In any case, there is something terribly wrong here. There are many 4.9 powered Fieros out there that are modified as much or more than what you describe and they are not blowing up or giving any problems. Team Python comes immediately to mind, for example. And their engines were WAY more modified . . .


George Ryan


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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 12-10-2012).]