It should be a pretty sweet swap. My understanding is that the 6-Speed will mate up to the 3.5, and as far as I know, the 3.5 has the same engine mounting locations as the 2.8... but that's where it ends... you would need to fab up two mounts for the transmission... and of course the wiring, but it would be really sweet!

quote Originally posted by Will: Not even close to $20K. www.car-parts.com shows LLT's for as little as $1400, with a $2000 example within driving distance virtually guaranteed. LFX's are down to about $1000, as they are also used in Impalas. A Saab F40 will set you back about the same amount. Depending on which DI engine you get, you may need transverse oil pan and manifolds, maybe not. Anyway... the swap won't cost anything CLOSE to $20K.

He was talking about using the LFX, not the LLT. And labor is expensive. I presume he's not doing all the work himself. LFX are not as widely available in junk yards. As I already mentioned previously, an LFX crate motor is going to be $4-5K off the bat. Even if you were lucky enough to find one in a yard, you'd still want to rebuild it, or at least tear it down enough to check that certain parts are still good. You don't know why the car was put in the yard in the first place, and you don't want to just trust an engine out of a car that some kid rolled because he was trying to be fast & furious, and couldn't handle the 3200 lb boat of a Camaro.

A Saab F40 with the High Feature bell pattern is going to be a bit more than that. They are quite rare to find in the US, and you may have to purchase a brand new one, which could set you back another $3-4K. Going with the G6 and an adapter plate will be cheaper, but may also require other changes.

And then there's all the other work to be done.

If you're lucky, and have the skills to do most of the work yourself, then maybe you can do it for closer to $10k. But still not the best way to go for getting 325 HP into a Fiero, and have it be smog legal in California. Anyone who can't do 90% of the work themselves is going to be spending a lot more than $10K to get an LFX with a manual trans, running properly in a Fiero, and yes, it will come close to $20K.

I can't help but read all the back and forth...

If you are careful and know what you are doing you should be able to do a swap of less than $8000 for either a 3.9L or a 3.6 DOHC.

3.9Ls can be had as cheap as $400
6 speeds can be had as cheap as $400
Axles can be had for less then $1000
Exaust (stainless) @$1000
Misc $350-$500
Mounts $400-$450
Computer $100 to $3000 depending on which engine you pick.

You can probably get a 3.6 in the car for less than $9K

Of course this assumes you are doing all your own work.

F40 mounts are available for the G6 trans (I think they fit the Saab trans the same since its mounting holes are the same. It only has a different bell housing)

quote Originally posted by FieroNate: If you are careful and know what you are doing you should be able to do a swap of less than $8000 for either a 3.9L or a 3.6 DOHC.

A 3.9? Yes. A 3.6? Maybe. There are 5 different USDM 3.6L High Feature engines, in wildly varying number of trim levels in various vehicles. The LFX in the 323 HP trim is only available in the 2012+ Camaro. Finding *any* 2012 or newer vehicle stripped in your local yard is going to be difficult, Camaro or not. The LLT is a bit more available, and can be found used, But you're unlikely to find one for less than $1000-1500. More likely, you're going to find the LY7, which has been around much longer, was used in a lot more vehicles, and can be found a little cheaper. But I wouldn't use any junkyard motor without at least a basic teardown/refresh. You should really add $500 to the cost of any junkyard motor; $800 if you have to ship it. You wouldn't want to do all the work to swap it in, and then 3 months later have it throw a rod or something because of damage sustained in the wreck that put it in the yard in the first place, which you didn't look for after getting it.

And then there's the new LF3, the 420 HP turbo 3.6, which isn't even in a production car yet, but is slated for the 2014 CTS.

New things cost new money.

quote Originally posted by dobey: He was talking about using the LFX, not the LLT. And labor is expensive. I presume he's not doing all the work himself. LFX are not as widely available in junk yards. As I already mentioned previously, an LFX crate motor is going to be $4-5K off the bat. Even if you were lucky enough to find one in a yard, you'd still want to rebuild it, or at least tear it down enough to check that certain parts are still good. You don't know why the car was put in the yard in the first place, and you don't want to just trust an engine out of a car that some kid rolled because he was trying to be fast & furious, and couldn't handle the 3200 lb boat of a Camaro. A Saab F40 with the High Feature bell pattern is going to be a bit more than that. They are quite rare to find in the US, and you may have to purchase a brand new one, which could set you back another $3-4K. Going with the G6 and an adapter plate will be cheaper, but may also require other changes. And then there's all the other work to be done. If you're lucky, and have the skills to do most of the work yourself, then maybe you can do it for closer to $10k. But still not the best way to go for getting 325 HP into a Fiero, and have it be smog legal in California. Anyone who can't do 90% of the work themselves is going to be spending a lot more than $10K to get an LFX with a manual trans, running properly in a Fiero, and yes, it will come close to $20K.

As I mentioned in the test you quoted, LFX's are, IN FACT, cheaper than LLT's. LFX's are used in Impalas, while LLT's were only used in the lower production RWD applications. Check the website I linked.

A full rebuild is NOT necessary. I would select from the list an engine the yard had test run, ask about what happened to the car. As long as it was crashed, I'd have every confidence the engine would be fine and deliver a long and reliable service life.

There are a FEW components that may warrant pre-emptive replacement. I've heard things about the reliability of the timing chain guides, for example.

The single connection point for the LFX exhaust will actually make the exhaust easier to fab for a swap as there will be less of it. Imagine if the only exhaust you had to build for a swap was the cat-back... How easy would that be?
Unfortunately, it makes the LFX impossible to upgrade with headers, but at the same time, it's easier to turbocharge.

Again, check the website I linked and you quoted for Saab transmission prices.

No one who can't do his own work and has $20K is going to do this anyway...

Camaros are 4200+ lbs.

quote Originally posted by Will: As I mentioned in the test you quoted, LFX's are, IN FACT, cheaper than LLT's. LFX's are used in Impalas, while LLT's were only used in the lower production RWD applications. Check the website I linked.

I'm sorry, but car-part.com is not an encyclopedia of what engines are in what cars. It's an index of what is available at some parts yards, across the country.

The LLT was also used in several FWD vehicles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine#LLT
In fact, the number of current vehicles with either the LFX or LLT is about the same amount, and the ratio of the engine usage across RWD vs FWD/AWD platforms, is about the same in both cases.

Yes, it's possible to search and do the swap for less than $20K. Even less than $10K probably. But using engines and transmissions of unknown origin or condition is a risk. And as for the Saab trans, there are a crapload available, from the 2.0T model. But the 2.8t + F40 is a much rarer combination in USDM. The 2.0t trans is on an Ecotec and is a different bell pattern. There are also plenty of 6 speeds mated to the B20 engine available, but again, that's a different bell pattern (and I'm not sure it's an F40, or what the ratios are). You might as well just buy one of the NOS G6 F40s for $400-500 at that point, since you're going to use an adapter plate anyway.

But at the same time, you can also go find an LQ1 for cheap, mount it directly to a G6 F40 trans, use the G6 clutch/flywheel, throw a small turbo on it with a few pieces of custom exhaust, and have the same > 300 HP for under $1K, and with much less trouble. Or even better, just mate it to a Getrag and you won't have to mess with finding axles. Cheap, 300 HP, and fully CARB legal. And a DOHC to boot.

Actually, www.car-parts.com *IS* a good listing of what was in what vehicle, because it's backed up by Hollander, to the extent that Hollander is correct, which is darn close to 100% for major components of vehicles built in the last 20 years.

If you checked, you'd see that there are more LFX listings than LLT listings, and that the LFX's are cheaper.

Used engine a risk? Well... technically, yes, just like getting out of bed and driving to work in the morning. A significant risk? Absolutely not. A risk worth spending $500-$800 to mitigate? Hardly.

I know what Saab trans I'm looking for and talking about; there are half a dozen listings under $750.

You're saying that putting together a LLT/LFX swap for less than $10K is risky like flying by the seat of your pants on a stormy night with your hair on fire... And then you say that you can "throw" a turbo on a TDC for $1K and compare that to an LLT/LFX swap? And CARB legal too? Where's YOUR car's BAR Exception number, then?
LOL!

Once the mechanical requirements of simply having the emissions equipment on the car are satisfied, the only thing that *should* be required to make an LLT/LFX swap CARB legal is a tune based on a manual transmission LLT/LFX Camaro tune.

All this discussion is sort of making me laugh.

I bought a 17K mile 3.9L for a fair price and was concerned about the internals. Took it apart and its perfect. I could easily put it back together without new gaskets (the newer GMs use silicone gaskets for everything). A quick coat of copper gasket maker on the plys of MLS head gasket (requires removing the rivets) and things are ready to go back together.

car-part is a nice interchange guide. It'll offer suggestions on cars that use compatible parts.

The big difference in the LY engines is bell housing, fuel injection and cylinder head design.

The 'older' LY7 and LP9 engines appear to be of the same basic platform with different bore and stroke. Both are port fuel injected

The newer LLT is direct injected and probably the engine everyone wants.

I'd be willing to bet you can search car-part for them and find one in the $1200 range. In fact there are 4 of them listed on car-part.com for the 2008 CTS.

Also if you find a car that was hit in the rear you will not really have any reason to worry about engine damage.

If you find a Saab F40 you can almost buy two of them for the price or even buy a G6 F40 for spare parts.

I don't see where the risk is. Most of the engines would have to be seriously abused in order to concern me.

As far as the stock rods go here is a video of an Alloytec in australia making 440 HP and running almost to 9K RPM.

http://youtu.be/SAvqqiygiX0

I think the engine only has cams and an intake on it and of course headers. I found it while researching an LLT swap.

I really think there's no need to be too concerned with the number of junk yard parts that exist. I doubt one of these engines or trans would give too much problem.