Foy, it is easy to understand why one brand of powertrain mounts won't work the same as another. Different mount designs can shift the engine side to side but not front to back. Offering to make an adjustment to Gary after one year is certainly commendable but I am at a loss to understand why the downpipe you sold Gary that attaches to the exhaust, hit the firewall. Not trying to take pots shots here but I just want to understand why it did not fit on Garys setup. Can you fill us in on this?
I bought the parts only a few months ago. July 23 2012
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06:24 PM
Dec 28th, 2012
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15477 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Different mount designs can shift the engine front/rear, left/right, up/down.
Side to side I agree but the mounts MUST keep the powertrain within the cradle. You have hardly any room between the cradle and the 4T65eHD. On each side of the auto trans you have maybe 1" or less for front to rear differences. Even if there waqs more room, if the mounts moved the powertrain back or forward too much, then excessive CV axle misalignment will occur. I find it hard to understand how a crossover pipe will hit the firewall with anyones mounts. Perhaps FOY will comment and enlighten us all.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Side to side I agree but the mounts MUST keep the powertrain within the cradle. You have hardly any room between the cradle and the 4T65eHD. On each side of the auto trans you have maybe 1" or less for front to rear differences. Even if there waqs more room, if the mounts moved the powertrain back or forward too much, then excessive CV axle misalignment will occur.
While there are some constraints that reduce the available room for engine/transmission placement from a mount perspective, there still exists the opportunity for the mounts to have different placement Left/Right, Front/Back and Up/Down to a certain degree. I setup all my drivetrains on a cradle fixture, and record the bellhousing placement vs. cradle centerline (side to side), crankshaft vs. bottom of cradle (elevation) and crankshaft vs. front cradle bolt (front/back) with +/- 1/16" precision and very few end up being the exact same (across different engine/transmission combos).
The comment about CV angles is comical. If you have a lowered fiero, you have probably induced a far greater CV angle change than what is available just from engine placement. In practice, it is quite difficult to get a common fiero drivetrain setup with a "bad" cv angle.
Here is a fun scenario to drive the above issues home... 2 swaps, one with the 4T65e-hd and one with the F40... assume same engine for both swaps.
If you use the same engine mount (same engine placement front/rear) for both swaps, the axle placement coming out of the transmission will be about 1 1/2" different between the two... based on this mockup I did of the 4T65e-hd snout bracket vs. the intermediate shaft coming out of the F40...
So what do you do? Change the engine placement with slightly different engine mount to line up the axles, or keep the same engine placement and let the axles be off 1 1/2" to each other, or split the difference...
If you change the mount design to move the engine... that proves my point about the available range of engine placement with different mounts. If you keep the axles 1 1/2" different from each other... that negates your argument about the CV angle being a significant concern.
Ideally, you would want to take precise measurements from all available transmission options and find the best engine placement that will accommodate all transmission types while keeping the axle angles to a minimum. Prior to 2006 there wasn't a single set of mounts for any engine taking the F40 into consideration, so if someone took a fresh look at standardizing the mounts, they SHOULD would be slightly different than all previous one offered, unless that are just a copy of someone else's previous design.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-28-2012).]
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05:29 PM
svincent550 Member
Posts: 42 From: Apple Valley Ca Registered: Dec 2012
Side to side I agree but the mounts MUST keep the powertrain within the cradle. You have hardly any room between the cradle and the 4T65eHD. On each side of the auto trans you have maybe 1" or less for front to rear differences. Even if there waqs more room, if the mounts moved the powertrain back or forward too much, then excessive CV axle misalignment will occur. I find it hard to understand how a crossover pipe will hit the firewall with anyones mounts. Perhaps FOY will comment and enlighten us all.
I have seen a few swaps where the bottom of the trans was inches higher than the bottom plane of the cradle (most of us have the trans pan somewhat under the bottom plane of the cradle). In the case of this high mounting you can pretty much end up with any part of the motor mounted in any place.
Honestly... I would think it would be fairly obvious that you can't intermix mounts for the very reason that West Coast Fieros, Purple Reign, FieroX, FOY make their own mounting system, in their own shops, in different parts of the country. There was never a factory specification for placing anything other than the 2.5 or 2.8 in the engine bay.
How can anyone expect that using engine mounts... made by hand, none the less... from different vendors would not cause an issue due to what each vendor thinks is the best way to mount an engine. I can understand the frustration of the end user, but in the end ignorance plays a part in this situation.
I currently have a rear F23 mount from Roger Thelin and FOY's front F23 mount along with Rodney's poly engine mount... I am expecting that I will most likely have to fix something to make it work when it comes time...
Good luck guys, I hope this all gets straightened out!
Honestly... I would think it would be fairly obvious that you can't intermix mounts for the very reason that West Coast Fieros, Purple Reign, FieroX, FOY make their own mounting system, in their own shops, in different parts of the country. There was never a factory specification for placing anything other than the 2.5 or 2.8 in the engine bay.
How can anyone expect that using engine mounts... made by hand, none the less... from different vendors would not cause an issue due to what each vendor thinks is the best way to mount an engine. I can understand the frustration of the end user, but in the end ignorance plays a part in this situation.
...
The only observation I'll make, in this regard, is that the manual tranny position is already located. The axles have to stay in the same general location (side to side) or they may bind. Am I missing something? In a 3800/manual swap, wouldn't the front (engine) mounting be designed to accommodate the stock position of the Getrag? (Low mounts notwithstanding.) Wouldn't the 4T60E/65E brackets then be designed to accommodate the position of the existing front mounting? Or does the size of the auto transaxle require the engine to be placed in a different position than the Getrag would allow for? Requiring two different front mounting points?
Just asking since I've never done this. I expect that each fabricator may have a slightly different method, but it would be nice to know who does what.
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
hey just wondering if you got around to finishing up my kit, tryed calling the number you pm'd me but no answer. give me a call when you can or send me a message on the forum. if you could let me know what you have left to do that would be great. thanks, jake
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04:34 PM
svincent550 Member
Posts: 42 From: Apple Valley Ca Registered: Dec 2012
On one of the other post Foy has contacted purple and captain fiero. I have called Foy on a number he left on my pm, but still have not gotten a response. I thought our parts were done and on there way but I guess that was not the case. I hope he reads this and gets in contact with us both. Good Luck.
thanks for the info steve, i was told that i only had my wiring harness left in the full kit so i was hoping that he could just ship me everything i ordered and i could just do the harness with my friend. i was hoping to have my swap done before it snows but ive had 2 snowstorms since so now im kinda in trouble. just wondering but what did you order from him?
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04:39 PM
svincent550 Member
Posts: 42 From: Apple Valley Ca Registered: Dec 2012
I ordered F23 mounts and brackets from him on Oct 2 2012. I also sent him my htob to modify in Oct. I was supposed to get all of my parts in Nov. I was hoping to buy some headers from him too, but after all of this fiasco I dont really see that happening. He never replies back when I call, send a txt or a pm. Most frustrating ordering experience I have ever had. What I dont understand is why he responds to some peoples messages and not to others. My business is not important to him. I wish you good luck in getting your parts.
Thanks
Steve
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07:30 PM
NightMare Cruiser Member
Posts: 2041 From: Edison, NJ USA Registered: Aug 2009
Another Whodinie,this guy is a waste of time with excuses by the score who gives if there is a problem personally with you,just another fly by night vendor who tries to do a thing and is in over his head.Red flag just run the other way
Look at the other thread, I'm busy and still here. My cell is back if you need to call. I have Capt's car going back tomorrow and purples parts are going with it. I'm operating on my own and sending as I have everything perfect, I don't want any more complaints. I'm going to double check fitment on my mockups not the jigs and it'll go Steve then Jake. It's been a while I know, all I can do is all I can do.
i appreciate that you except only high standard parts! but i wasnt complaining i was just hoping you could keep us customers updated with our parts, its just scary when we send money with no info on it months later. look forward to my kit though! thanks
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04:38 PM
Jan 10th, 2013
svincent550 Member
Posts: 42 From: Apple Valley Ca Registered: Dec 2012
This is Steve so you stated that I was next after you finished capt fiero and purple. Is it possible for you to give Jake and I a date when we will get our parts. At this point I dont think thats too much to ask for. I cant believe Im still begging for something I ordered in Oct, but whatever.
foy, a time estimate for steve and I would be appreciated. i got offered 2 jobs for the airforce that i thankfully was able to reject, i need my parts before i ship so any updates?
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08:21 PM
Tony Kania Member
Posts: 20794 From: The Inland Northwest Registered: Dec 2008
Google Streetview picture of FOY's Dad's house with same Fiero... (did not include address or link to said house for safety reasons, this is just here to establish identity link)
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08:05 AM
svincent550 Member
Posts: 42 From: Apple Valley Ca Registered: Dec 2012
Jake I did not want to face the reality, and come out and say this but he scammed us. He was supposed to send my parts on wednsday. He gave me his word that there would be no more delays. Now he is back to not answering his phone and sending me right to voicemail. At the beggining of all of this I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was in over his head and would still do the right thing. Now Im done with that. I just hope Capt gets his car back, and Purple gets somewhere else to work on his car. As for you and I dont know what efforts we can make to get our money back. I just need to find someone else to fabricate a F23 kit and a htob. This whole thing is very upseting and has left a bad taste in my mouth about how I will do business in the future. I know Foy got you for more money then me, and for that I am trully sorry. In the end Foy will get whats coming to him. Maybe a week from now, maybe a year from now, what goes around comes back around. Steve
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05:09 PM
Purple86GT Member
Posts: 1592 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Mar 2012
okay this is crazy... im a f***ing 18 year old kid and foy stole $1800, my wiring harness, my tstat housing, and my ecu!!! foy if you are reading this you better get on your game and send this parts out or give us a COMPLETE refund WITH parts sent to you... to everyone else does anyone have the number for his father at the lawfirm still? if we get as much info as possible we may be able to get our parts and or money.
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08:19 PM
Mike Gonzalez Member
Posts: 5093 From: Colorado Springs, CO. USA Registered: Jul 2001
Steve - You have tracking for two large priority boxes - One with the f23 kit and the another with a factory htob system frmo GM to replace the one you sent me
Ian - You have tracking for your adjusted and repowdered dogbone
Jose - You have tracking for the flat shift adapter
Jake - It is a good thing I put everything together before I sent you your kit because I messed up your harness somewhere, I'm going to take it apart this weekend and figure it out. Your money is still in the trust account, don't worry. When I spoke to your father I explained that to him
Everyone should now be taken care of aside from Jake. I am not going anywhere, I have cleared out my inbox and will reply to any and all PMs
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09:35 PM
NightMare Cruiser Member
Posts: 2041 From: Edison, NJ USA Registered: Aug 2009
Jake I feel your pain man. Im really upset about this whole thing to. I really thought Foy would do the right thing since he had so many people on here that he owed. He is just a coward not man enough to keep his word. When I figure out what my next move is I will let you know. Don't worry about your little rant you had earlier, I did the same thing earlier today. I plan to do everything in my power to get back what Foy owes us. From what I understand he gave Purple back most of his money. It might be more difficult for us though now that he has been exposed for everyone to see. Steve
Nightmare - Tracking is picture with stamped receipts. You got all your parts. I don't know how many times I've gotta say it, but it isn't my fault you mixed FieroX mounts with my parts and it didn't work. You also chose not to send the axle back to me. I'm sorry things didn't work out
[This message has been edited by FriendOfYours (edited 01-18-2013).]
can you please pm me all of the parts you are sending out for me also what you did to the ecm for the tune (size pulley, evap, vacuumline delete). i want to make sure im getting everything i ordered
Dude, I admit it, You got over on me! You got my money and I got unusable stuff. I won't C.O.D. the axle, I know nobody will sign for it! I will get charged Double for shipping. Sending you the dogbone is worthless also.
Things I purchased from you that had issues:
Dog Bone: Holes don't line up when dog bone is placed in Firewall bracket and dogbone needs to be reangled down and over. Not intended for other mounts but yours.
Axle: too short, only for your mounts
Down Pipe: hits firewall. Once again I guess only for your mounts And NO SHOP will touch it!
