Has anyone successfully adapted an electic water pump on the stock V6?

I was wondering the same thing myself.
Good question.
Hope someone has and can give us the info

Why? The usual reason for going electrical instead of mechanical is because of clearance/space considerations. I would never prefer an electrical pump over mechanical and they're not that expensive or hard to replace.

horse power!

I saw a horsepower tv episode where a small block picked up 12 RWHP just by changing to an electric. I'm already running an 88 altenator in my 87 so I *should* be able to handle it...

Sadly, Summit Racing only lists them (as far as V6's go) for the 3.8/4.3... :/

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-26-2012).]

I really think electric accessories are the future. Try to buy a new model car with belt driven power steering. The Prius has no belt driven accessories. The engine only drives the generator and transmission. Besides the horsepower gain the electric water pump and other accessories are easier to control and replace. The water pump can run when the engine is turned off, otherwise a time when it spikes in temperature because it's still hot, but no longer has any cooling. If you use a separate pump, as opposed to a motor driving the existing pump, it can be somewhere more convenient to service.

I would look at pumps that are used in hybrid vehicles or otherwise sized and capable of handling the flow and temperature you need. Why can't you use the pump for the 3.4?

I saw a Fiero with a Chev V8 with a an

I've been wondering about this myself, but haven't pursued the idea very far. But I noticed that Jegs and Summit have electric conversion kits. It's basically an add-on electric motor that runs your existing water pump. Unfortunately, the mounting bracket for the motor doesn't fit the 60 degree V6. But brackets aren't that hard to make.

I don't have any experience with electric water pumps in cars but the arguement regarding power gained at the wheels by using an electric water pump does not make sense. You either take power from the engine to spin a mechanical driven pump or you take power from the engine to spin an alternator under load. Apart from any possible power savings in either system due to pump efficiency, power consumed to pump water around the car is approximately the same with both methods. In fact, there may even be more power loss with an electric pump due to having to generate electricity with an alternator and then coverting it back to mechanical energy in the pump as apposed to using the mechanical energy of the motor to pump water directly. If someone has discovered a method of pumping water without using power, I want in on that design.

Edit: I don't know how much power an engine driven water pump consumes but it can't be more than 1 or 2 hp. If an electric pump drawing a full 80 amps at 12 vdc would only be 1.2 hp. We have portable 12 hp water pumps at our ship yard and they have a 4" diameter suction hose.

[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 12-26-2012).]

I guess since the dyno results posted above don't match your admittedly uninformed opinion, the dyno results must be wrong... right?

The big difference between electric and engine-driven water pumps is that the engine-driven one changes speed along with the engine, whereas the electric one runs independent from engine RPM. The engine-driven water pump sucks down more power when you rev the engine faster, whereas the electric one stays fairly constant. For the electric water pump, this means less parasitic power loss at high RPM, which is where you make the most HP. Hence the dyno results.

You can take it a step further with a temperature-controlled water pump. Depending on the system, the pump can either be cycled on and off, or sped up / slowed down to maintain a certain coolant temperature. This allows you to delete the thermostat, which is a flow restriction (even when it's fully open). Once again, less parasitic power loss.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-27-2012).]

It takes the same amount of energy to pump water no matter how you do it, nothing is free, you either take the energy from the water pump or you take it from the alternator and put it in to the electric motor that pumps the water. You gain nothig but complexity But, the people who make the electric pumps want you to believe that you get something for nothing. Larry

For example the 3800 PCM turns off the alternator when you are at high RPM/full throttle. So when you compare WOT horsepower the electric water pump puts no load on the engine.

Yes that energy is then restored back to the battery at part throttle when taping out a few more HP doesn't make a difference.

Dyno results don't lie.

When revving an engine, it is possible to flow too much coolant that the heat doesn't have enough time to transfer to the coolant. Hence it makes sense to spin the water pump independently from the engine.

With thermo-electric generators getting better and better, it may be possible to eliminate the alternator someday as well. A car can run off battery until it gets hot and from there the heat will generate electricity - that's the future. For now, I'm focusing on the water pump.

I would never say that the Dyno results lie.....because they don't. I've done many dyno tests on marine diesel engines, however it's important to look at all aspects of the energy balance equation, ie: heat rejection in the cooling water, exhaust temps, vibration, sound, fuel consumption, air flow etc. However, it all comes down to one simple rule.... energy in equals energy out. You don't get something for nothing. Of course, you can improve on the effeciency of the system so that there are less parasitic losses and I agree that an electric water pump on an engine can certainly improve the overall efficiency of the engine is done correctly. I am looking at such an option for my 350 SBC. The benifits noted in the above posts make sense if you are able to match the cooling requirements more closely to the load on the engine and maximize the thermal efficiency of the engine. As we know, that is the weak point in the overall efficiency of the internal combustion engine. I guess my point is that the quoted 12hp power increase seemed high ( say 5% at 250hp) since it wasn't mentioned whether the electric water pump was being powered by the alternator or was it plugged into a wall outlet.

Iv'e always learned, keep it simple and less problems arise. What fails more, an electric window or a hand crank window(older cars that is)
You may be already running a larger alternator, but the draw is the same. If you add more components to the circuit, you add more draw. If this car is for winning at the track, do it. If this car is for daily and weekend driving? Why make it more complicated.
With an electric water pump you still have an added (internal)motor and wiring. Then the expense of configuring the engine/wiring for an electric pump.
Iv'e seen just as many z28/impala electric pumps fail as mechanical. They don't seem to be any more dependable.
Keep it simple, if you want it to be dependable.
Something if it can easily developed would be a torque limiting harmonic balancer. To limit the torque of accessories over a certain RPM/torque. Been used on fans for decades. Sorry won't work on SC engines.
Have you driven a Prius?(not too bad)
Have you worked on a Prius?(keep the key fob away from the car when changing the oil. they CAN start by themselves if they sense low battery condition)
On newer LEV cars they even went as far as putting a on way clutch on the alternator pulley to slip on deceleration. Seen it on GM and Nissan. Yes they do fail.

The same HorsepowerTV episode I saw swapped out 3 sets of headers and roller tip rockers. The electric water pump netted the biggest improvement on the dyno short of the nitrous kit they added. Switching to roller-tip rockers actually picked up a couple of ponies on a V8 that was making ~327 HP. Lucky me, I'm using FULL roller rockers on my 3.4!

As for cooling efficiency, let's face it, regular water pumps are too slow for idle and to fast at high RPM. If an electric waterpump can keep the pump flowing like the engine was at 3000RPM the whole time, I'd imagine it's better for a motor. My race car only sees WOT for 5 seconds each race is only about 19 seconds...somehow I don't think my engine temp will go from 210 to 280 in those 5 seconds...

No need to debate the pro's and con's here. All I really want to know is has it or can it be done. Thanks!

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-27-2012).]

I think dragsters were the first to use electric water pumps. How fast the coolant flows is probably not as important as how much cooling is available from the radiator. Having the coolant circulating faster probalby doesn't lower the temperature any more past a certain point - you end up just returning hotter coolant back to the engine. If it's just for drag racing you can probably use a small motor driving the existing pump. The first electric water pump I saw for a car was just that, a very small motor. It was in a speed shop. I say go for it.

Just gut the stock water pump and use one of these units...

http://www.emp-corp.com/pro...electric-water-pump/

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...040710-2-046561.html

[This message has been edited by Jefrysuko (edited 12-27-2012).]

I used a "CSR" elec water pump on my SBC fiero. I used a pump for a chevy v8. I remote mounted it under the bat. box location.


I used the pump with out the 90 degree elbows that came with it. I blocked off the lower leg, welded on a short piece of alum pipe to the top place. the pump is hung from the top plate. The inlet points at the stock fiero water pipe FROM the rad. All the cast iron piping lets me hook up the heater return hose. On the engine I made a alum water in take manifold. A short piece of fiero rad hose connects the top ( outlet) of the pump to the water manifold. The pump stays in the car when I pull the drive line.

I use one piece of hose now, but you can see what it does.

Found this:
http://www.northernautopart...ProductModelId=26584

But no pic yet.

Edit:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Moros...-Kit/744357/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/i/Proform/778/66235R/10002/-1

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-30-2012).]

This unit says for drag racing only. I suppose that it might be used for the street. Until Detroit and all the other manufacturers switch to electric pumps I'm going to suspect that for all it's inefficiencies the mechanical pump is probably more reliable. Just my guess. I concede the hp gains at high rpm with an electric pump.

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 12-30-2012).]

The cheapest way to more power in this country is just to put a BIGGER engine in it.

quote Originally posted by dratts: This unit says for drag racing only. I suppose that it might be used for the street. Until Detroit and all the other manufacturers switch to electric pumps I'm going to suspect that for all it's inefficiencies the mechanical pump is probably more reliable. Just my guess. I concede the hp gains at high rpm with an electric pump.

Uhm...it's for my race car.
Regardless, the only thing that stops it being for the street is a management system to control the rpm. If rpm is regulated by voltage, then something can be done there.
From a true 'cold-start' you probably wouldn't even want it on for the first 2 minutes or so to warm up the engine.

If the max RPM is 2600, then most HP gains would come after 2600...exactly what I'm looking for. When I get the car back, I'll have to see if there is room to mount it...perhaps where a power-steering up would be if the Fiero V6 would have one.

Controlling the water pump could be as simple as a relay and a fan switch. Or you could go high-tech with it. It just depends on how much complexity you're willing do deal with.

It might not need that much controlling. After all the engine does have a thermostat. Conventional water pumps still used in most engines aren't actually controlled. They probably spend most of their time spinning faster than neccessary in order to have adequate flow at idle.

For the street, you would want sensible settings.
For the track, I would want to run the water pump between rounds to help cool the engine with the motor off since I'm still of the belief that a cold motor makes more power.