quote Originally posted by lou_dias: I told you at least 4 times I don't have the car. In my own build thread. In the 3500 block iron heads thread. In this thread, probably at least twice and posted a video in my own thread and this one. ...and probably in the "serious discussion..." about making a 3.4 make 300 hp thread. It's quite clear you either have a reading comprehension problem or just like to troll.

In response to me, you vaguely mention getting the car back in may in your build thread, and in the intel conv thread, I didn't see you mention it at all, in the 3500 iron head thread, you did mention it was wreck more clearly, I must have skimmed by it. so that's twice, and I just saw you mention it here for the first time today. 3 times. I will admit I should have paid more attention to detail.

my comparison of the truck L03 Vs the camaro L03 still goes unanswered, and it's not about truck vs car, it's about roller vs non roller, you claim the roller cam makes the difference, but it really doesn't. you have a built motor, and you are comparing it to mostly stock cars, so we give you a built motor to compare to and you say it's not a street car or not apples to apples. I would love to see you answer this with something other than f**k your comparison. or you're wrong because I say so.

I will continue to back up my claims, and I would like to see you back up yours. I have posted flow data from more then one source showing the aluminum heads flow more air, I have posted dynographs showing the aluminum heads produce a flat torque curve across the range. all you have posted to back up your claims is a couple of oval track times, which I'm sorry, but those don't really count for much, there are too many other variables for it to be used in comparison. I don't even think 1/4 mile times are good because driver skill and transmission type can make such a huge difference.

you keep calling me a troll, and I will admit, at the end of the page 2, I was trolling, but you're the one who started this thread to bait me and the other aluminum head guys into a response, and try to get us tied up in knots. Yet we are the only ones posting real data and examples to back up our claims.

Please, post something to back up what you're saying, I stand by the fact that if you are looking for power across the RPM range. the aluminum heads are a better starting point, again, I have posted data to back that up.

Edit:

if I see a 60*V6 performance thread, I will continue to post the data I have, if you produce better results, awesome, I would love to see it, but I seriously doubt it will happen, the heads don't have the same potential, they are based on 50 year old tech, that performed ok 25 years ago, but they aren't the performance parts they used to be. if it were easy to make 270 hp with the iron heads, we would see it alot more often, obviously the guy who ported your heads did good work, but port work only does so much when you start with something that isn't all that good from the start. yes the heads can be improved, so can the aluminum heads, the gentleman who did my port work made significant gains, Ben, at WOT tech has been porting the aluminum heads for years, and has also made substantial gains, there's also miltzy who does porting, although I don't know how successful their work is. My point is that if the iron heads could be made to do better then the aluminum, one of these guys would offer porting for them.

again, please post a response with some technical data to support your claims. I have never denied that you made good torque, but again, the iron heads don't flow like the aluminum heads do, they are in their peak efficiency much earlier then the later heads, couple that with the increased compression, and a cam aimed for low end torque, and you will make good torque. I will make one more post in this thread after this one as a follow up, but after that, I'm done here, there is no point in continuing.

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. if you haven't seen the light by now, you have your eyes closed.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-23-2013).]

bottom line...


GEN III> GEN I, PERIOD. Lou you have some pretty decent results with your different combination, ill give you that much. not many people put this much work into antiquated technology, and it seems no one but you recommend building a reverse hybrid. i wouldnt recommend the same path you took to anyone though, its a big step backward IMHO.

quote Originally posted by sleevePAPA: bottom line... GEN III> GEN I, PERIOD. Lou you have some pretty decent results with your different combination, ill give you that much. not many people put this much work into antiquated technology, and it seems no one but you recommend building a reverse hybrid. i wouldnt recommend the same path you took to anyone though, its a big step backward IMHO.

Not many people actually dynoed their hybrid builds. About 1/2 dozen people have them that I know of on this forum and IIRC, I'm the only one with a posted dyno that I know of. No one who has PM'd me privately about my build is disappointed with their results having done more or less the same exact thing. I am the only one who documented it to that level, dyno'd it and actively races with the car. I'm quite eager for my own new dyno so I can see how much more I can tune it since I've had nothing to go by other than my track results to know I'm making much more power.

In case anyone cares, my 3500/4-speed just put down 206 whp and 252 ft. Lbs of torque. It also makes over 200 ft lbs. at 1800 rpm. And my tune needs work as well. Everything is stock except for the y-pipe. Dyno charts were posted on 60degreev6.

Nice! Good work!

Damn, I want to get to work on mine...

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Yes, I'm totally sure that 0.1X difference in compression from a stock 3500 to my build made ALL the difference in the world... Horses don't drink Kool-Aid.

see, this is exactly what I meant, I ask for real, hard evidence to back up your claims that the iron heads are better or that the roller cam is the power maker of the 3x00 and this is all you post.

the only things you post to back up your claims are a couple of oval track times, big whoop, driver skill and suspension will make more difference overall power anyways. and as I see you posted in your "build thread"(if you can call it that) you have a hopped up suspension too... then there's the dynograph that supports my arguement. oh, and bcampbell out torqued you and out horsepowered your built 3.4 with a stock 3500... oh wait, but that's not a fair comparison because he didn't use a stock malibu or G6 Y pipe...

you really show what you're made of here, you're one BMF aren't you, you and your built 3.4 that can't outperform a mostly stock 3500. everyone bow down to the almighty lou dias and his 3.4...


your dyno, max torque, 249 max power 187... again, you call me troll?

again, more data coming from the aluminum head crowd, and still no even somewhat scientific data to back up any of your claims. afterall, this forum is Technical Discussion & Questions... you have yet to post anything technical, just some quotes from 25+year old books that probably tell you to replace IAT sensors with resistors and that you can only tune the fuel curve via fuel pressure....

I'm just glad I haven't wasted my time as bad as I thought I was, at least one person has read this thread and seen the light...

I think there's another bridge to get where I'm going...
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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: see, this is exactly what I meant, I ask for real, hard evidence to back up your claims that the iron heads are better or that the roller cam is the power maker of the 3x00 and this is all you post. the only things you post to back up your claims are a couple of oval track times, big whoop, driver skill and suspension will make more difference overall power anyways. and as I see you posted in your "build thread"(if you can call it that) you have a hopped up suspension too... then there's the dynograph that supports my arguement. oh, and bcampbell out torqued you and out horsepowered your built 3.4 with a stock 3500... oh wait, but that's not a fair comparison because he didn't use a stock malibu or G6 Y pipe... you really show what you're made of here, you're one BMF aren't you, you and your built 3.4 that can't outperform a mostly stock 3500. everyone bow down to the almighty lou dias and his 3.4... again, more data coming from the aluminum head crowd, and still no even somewhat scientific data to back up any of your claims. afterall, this forum is Technical Discussion & Questions... you have yet to post anything technical, just some quotes from 25+year old books that probably tell you to replace IAT sensors with resistors and that you can only tune the fuel curve via fuel pressure.... I'm just glad I haven't wasted my time as bad as I thought I was, at least one person has read this thread and seen the light... I think there's another bridge to get where I'm going...

You are such a troll.
I posted a dyno with a bad tune in my thread of 158/195...and with that bad tune I did a 21.5 second lap for all of 2011.
Fast forward to 2012 - same car, same driver, same suspension, same track and a good tune and I dropped 2 seconds off my lap time. Did I become a better driver? I've been racing there since 1996...so the answer is no. That was all engine power gains. If anything, I have to break harder entering turn 3 since my handling didn't improve.

Let's say with that bad tune (158/195) my 1/4 mile time is 14.8s...how much power would I need to make to drop is down to 13.8? I'm pretty sure there's some online calculator for such things. You are simply in denial of what the track results mean.
And track results IS REAL DATA. You continue to troll in denial.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-23-2013).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: You are simply in denial of what the track results mean. And track results IS REAL DATA.

Yes track results are real data, but it is really useless for this discussion. Your lap times on the track that you race on mean nothing to everyone else.

But a dyno sheet is also REAL DATA that can easily be understood by everyone here, and also used as a comparison to other's engine combos.

Lou, I wasn't going to reply again, but damn you're dumb, you can't even reference your own dyno that you threw at me in another thread...

again, BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. you have ZERO credibility until you do.

just for you, I went and found it and added it to my earlier reply. call me a troll all you want, you're the one who refuses to post relevant data to back up your claims. no oval track times are not relevant either, they have way too many variables to be considered scientific. even 1/4 miles times have too many variables for my tastes, but at least there's a standard to go by.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

I still don't see the one big difference between iron and aluminum heads, weight. You can match flow rates and HP with iron heads, but you can't make them as light. That said I hate aluminum heads, I work as a heavy equipment mechanic and have had all kinds of problems with aluminum heads on industrial engines. Aluminum makes sense for weight savings on cars, but not for industrial engines.

quote Originally posted by tebailey: I still don't see the one big difference between iron and aluminum heads, weight. You can match flow rates and HP with iron heads, but you can't make them as light. That said I hate aluminum heads, I work as a heavy equipment mechanic and have had all kinds of problems with aluminum heads on industrial engines. Aluminum makes sense for weight savings on cars, but not for industrial engines.

please, show me someone who can make the iron gen 1 heads outflow, or even just match the aluminum gen 3/3.5 heads, just as I have told Lou, don't post it if you can't back it up with real test data

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

You seemed to have missed the point that all things equal iron vs aluminum, aluminum will win out in automotive because of the weight savings over iron. Remember that lbs saved is HP gained.

quote Originally posted by tebailey: You seemed to have missed the point that all things equal iron vs aluminum, aluminum will win out in automotive because of the weight savings over iron. Remember that lbs saved is HP gained.

Even though there is a weight difference, in this case I believe it's only 20lbs. I thought that my dyno numbers would at least prove a point; a stock 3500 put down very similar numbers to the modded iron-headed 3400

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: Lou, I wasn't going to reply again, but damn you're dumb, you can't even reference your own dyno that you threw at me in another thread... again, BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. you have ZERO credibility until you do. just for you, I went and found it and added it to my earlier reply. call me a troll all you want, you're the one who refuses to post relevant data to back up your claims. no oval track times are not relevant either, they have way too many variables to be considered scientific. even 1/4 miles times have too many variables for my tastes, but at least there's a standard to go by.

You're so full of it. Track times are everything. Between good launches and inside or outside lane I was between 21 and 22 seconds thru 5 events in 2011.
For the same amount of events in 2012 with the only difference being the tune, I was between 19 and 20 seconds. Continue to live by flow benches, because theory is all you have.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: What the troll doesn't seem to understand is that my whole point is that I'm saying either set of heads flow enough air to meet the demands of 3.4/3.5L motors. He's just going on a rampage to claim "better" performance out of aluminum heads when you can't exactly stick the same intake and exhaust behind them to compare "just the heads". Given the same bottom end, I have atleast shown that the potential is equally there.

With that being said, not disputing your results, there's still plenty of room to go with my setup and I would be willing to bet that I spent less $$ on swapping the whole motor (keep in mind that most 3500s have low mileage, and are unlikely to need a rebuild for a long time).

Can your iron heads be ported even further? I don't know. I guess that's up to you if you want to find out. If you used a cam that made more top end power, I wouldn't be surprised if the iron heads became a restriction. Can the aluminum heads be ported to make more power? Yes, which is why there are several places to buy ported heads from. I've also heard, though, that the aluminum heads are much less straightforward when it comes to porting, which could make them more expensive to have professionally ported.

You've proven that ported iron heads basically flow enough for a stock 3x00 cam. Can they flow enough for a cammed 3x00? Are you willing to spend the money to find out?


Edit:
Some others have pointed out benefits besides the greater flow potential, like knock suppression. I seem to recall seeing that you run octane booster. The dyno today of my car was running on 87 octane with no knock.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 02-24-2013).]

quote Originally posted by tebailey: You seemed to have missed the point that all things equal iron vs aluminum, aluminum will win out in automotive because of the weight savings over iron. Remember that lbs saved is HP gained.

Actually, the point is a 3.4L motor at 6000 RPM is only pumping 360 CFM at 100% VE, 400 CFM realistically. It doesn't matter if the heads are aluminum or iron, that's the demand of a 3.4 L motor at 6000 RPM. The troll thinks that because aluminum heads when fully ported on a flow bench can flow 232 CFM x 6 port and iron heads can flow 163 CFM x 6 ports than you are an idiot for using iron heads. If you do the math, iron heads can support over 440+ HP NA and Aluminum heads can support over 600, again NA...what he doesn't realize is how fast you'd have to spin the engine to reach the limits of EITHER type of heads for the engine as a whole to pump that much CFM at 100% VE much less 80% VE. If you're not going over 12,000RPM, either set of heads will do the job and you should focus on other parts of the engine.

Iron heads come with tiny 3/4" or 7/8" exhaust ports. I had mine opened up to 1 3/16" and *shocker* made torque on par with 3X00 motors that already come with larger exhaust ports since iron heads were really designed for 2.8's not 3.X motors... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make power with iron heads...

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Actually, the point is a 3.4L motor at 6000 RPM is only pumping 360 CFM at 100% VE, 400 CFM realistically. It doesn't matter if the heads are aluminum or iron, that's the demand of a 3.4 L motor at 6000 RPM. The troll thinks that because aluminum heads when fully ported on a flow bench can flow 232 CFM x 6 port and iron heads can flow 163 CFM x 6 ports than you are an idiot for using iron heads. If you do the math, iron heads can support over 440+ HP NA and Aluminum heads can support over 600, again NA...what he doesn't realize is how fast you'd have to spin the engine to reach the limits of EITHER type of heads for the engine as a whole to pump that much CFM at 100% VE much less 80% VE. If you're not going over 12,000RPM, either set of heads will do the job and you should focus on other parts of the engine. Iron heads come with tiny 3/4" or 7/8" exhaust ports. I had mine opened up to 1 3/16" and *shocker* made torque on par with 3X00 motors that already come with larger exhaust ports since iron heads were really designed for 2.8's not 3.X motors... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make power with iron heads...

Fair enough, and if you were starting with a 3.4L RWD block, that might be the cheapest way to make power. But if you're buying a 3400 anyway you might as well start with the heads that don't need any porting to meet flow requirements for the cam. Technically you could even use the same exhaust you currently have as I'm pretty sure there are some that have bolted iron head manifolds to aluminum heads by slotting some holes.

If you start talking about boost, better flow combined with added knock suppression would become even more important, without needing to spin the motor to obscene rpms to take advantage of the benefits.

Edit: By going with aluminum heads, you're also getting a superior intake that can be ported to flow even more, rather than having to buy a relatively expensive intake for the iron heads to replace the restrictive factory one.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 02-24-2013).]

quote Originally posted by bcampbell: Fair enough, and if you were starting with a 3.4L RWD block, that might be the cheapest way to make power. But if you're buying a 3400 anyway you might as well start with the heads that don't need any porting to meet flow requirements for the cam. Technically you could even use the same exhaust you currently have as I'm pretty sure there are some that have bolted iron head manifolds to aluminum heads by slotting some holes. If you start talking about boost, better flow combined with added knock suppression would become even more important, without needing to spin the motor to obscene rpms to take advantage of the benefits. Edit: By going with aluminum heads, you're also getting a superior intake that can be ported to flow even more, rather than having to buy a relatively expensive intake for the iron heads to replace the restrictive factory one.

I learned my lesson with used motors, low miles or high, I always rebuild now (except on the 4.9). I used the 3400 block because it came with the starter holes on the correct side, a "free" cam upgrade (aka roller), better oil pump and pan.

So far, I am happy with my results with the Trueleo intake. I'm just waiting for the car to be fixed so that I can post a "current" dyno. Even the performance 3X00 builds have done UIM and LIM porting, so with the Trueleo, I don't need any porting and it has been flowtested to support 300HP. Obviously I won't get there with a stock 3400 cam...but I don't necessarily want to be there either. You see, since I oval-track race, if I make too much more power past 5500RPM it essential goes to waste, I'd have to shift and that would actually slow me down. I basically want to get to my 3-4 shift and just hit the brake and take the turn. So my goal will never be to make a motor that needs to spin to 7000 rpm because I won't have the track length to get there. I want to optimize my power from 2000-5500 RPM in 3rd gear. That is all. I could care less about my 1/4 mile time. If you can understand that that RPM range covers my tire rotations over a certain distance, the back straight-away, then you'll understand why my goal will never be to build a high spinning motor. For me to use one, I'd need new gearing and that is not an option.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-24-2013).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: I learned my lesson with used motors, low miles or high, I always rebuild now (except on the 4.9). I used the 3400 block because it came with the starter holes on the correct side, a "free" cam upgrade (aka roller), better oil pump and pan. So far, I am happy with my results with the Trueleo intake. I'm just waiting for the car to be fixed so that I can post a "current" dyno. Even the performance 3X00 builds have done UIM and LIM porting, so with the Trueleo, I don't need any porting and it has been flowtested to support 300HP. Obviously I won't get there with a stock 3400 cam...but I don't necessarily want to be there either. You see, since I oval-track race, if I make too much more power past 5500RPM it essential goes to waste, I'd have to shift and that would actually slow me down. I basically want to get to my 3-4 shift and just hit the brake and take the turn. So my goal will never be to make a motor that needs to spin to 7000 rpm because I won't have the track length to get there. I want to optimize my power from 2000-5500 RPM in 3rd gear. That is all. I could care less about my 1/4 mile time. If you can understand that that RPM range covers my tire rotations over a certain distance, the back straight-away, then you'll understand why my goal will never be to build a high spinning motor. For me to use one, I'd need new gearing and that is not an option.

Your ideal powerband doesn't really have anything to do with the aluminum vs. iron head topic, since it's more relavent to your specific track and every track is different. For local autocross, the 5200 rpm drop-off sucks for me because it means having to choose between shifting into 2nd or staying in 1st an extra second before a turn. 7000 rpm would be much better for me and making extra power would be a bonus.

Whether or not you choose to trust a used motor is up to you but speaking from personal experience doing a few simple inspections will usually reveal whether the motor is worth buying. Chances are, for the cost of a rebuild you could just get another used motor.

[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 02-24-2013).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: You're so full of it. Track times are everything. Between good launches and inside or outside lane I was between 21 and 22 seconds thru 5 events in 2011. For the same amount of events in 2012 with the only difference being the tune, I was between 19 and 20 seconds. Continue to live by flow benches, because theory is all you have.

no, you are wrong again, track times show the performance of the entire vehicle as a whole, we are debating engines. track times greatly affected by many controlled and uncontrolled events, how long is the track? is the track wet or dry? banked turns or flat turns? Turn radius on each turn the same? three sided oval? is it daytime or nighttime? what's the humidity like? track cleanliness? track temp? air temp? dirt or pavement?

and this doesn't even touch on the engine or driver. the engine is a very small part of a much bigger equation.

at least a with a 1/4 mile dragstrip we have a standard distance to measure our time and speed over, and we also get a better basis for comparison, because most cars are tested in the 1/4 and the results are listed in mags like car and driver. I've never seen an article list oval track times for a stock car.

the intakes? please you're kidding right? the whole reason behind doing the swap is making power and torque. the stock fiero intake is junk, even you're not running it... why should we? hell, yours was sliced and diced to make power, all the porting you need to do to a 3500 manifold is right there at the ports, dont' even have to go deep. Bcampbell and hookdonspeed are both running stock UIM's, I'm sure there are others running stock manifolds too.

you have not shown the potential is equally there, your built motor is down 20 hp to Bcampbell's stock 3500. again, please back up your claims, I have backed up every claim I have made,

Neither head meets the demands of the engine, even max effort ported don't, some meet the demands of the driver, but neither meet the demand of the engine.

I know it's not going to happen because you don't back up anything you say, but please, post a dyno of a 440 hp iron head 3.4.

again, please back up your claims, you have yet to back anything up, yet you continue to post about how the iron heads will meet everyone's power goals, but don't have any data to support it.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

Can we get to the part of this argument that seems to be the start/have the most relevance to the Fiero community? You can use a 3x00 bottom end and a Fiero top end by using custom length pushrods and a retune. To use a full 3x00 (taking full advantage of the power package) you require a new ECU, wiring, and fabrication of the dog bone mounting.

If I missed anything let me know, you guys can have your pissing contest I just want it to benefit the community.

quote Originally posted by secre7skw3rl: Can we get to the part of this argument that seems to be the start/have the most relevance to the Fiero community? You can use a 3x00 bottom end and a Fiero top end by using custom length pushrods and a retune. To use a full 3x00 (taking full advantage of the power package) you require a new ECU, wiring, and fabrication of the dog bone mounting. If I missed anything let me know, you guys can have your pissing contest I just want it to benefit the community.

You also have to change the pistons.

quote Originally posted by secre7skw3rl: Can we get to the part of this argument that seems to be the start/have the most relevance to the Fiero community? You can use a 3x00 bottom end and a Fiero top end by using custom length pushrods and a retune. To use a full 3x00 (taking full advantage of the power package) you require a new ECU, wiring, and fabrication of the dog bone mounting. If I missed anything let me know, you guys can have your pissing contest I just want it to benefit the community.

You'll really need to swap ECU and do some wiring with a 3x00 bottom end and Fiero top end as well, to get the most out of it. And lou_dias is using the 7730 with DIS on his build. I don't know if he's running a knock sensor or not, but one would also be beneficial in tuning to get the best performance on a streetable car that one intends to race.

The non-VVT 3500 at least can easily be run on the 7730 ECM as well, IIRC.

IBTL

quote Originally posted by secre7skw3rl: Can we get to the part of this argument that seems to be the start/have the most relevance to the Fiero community? You can use a 3x00 bottom end and a Fiero top end by using custom length pushrods and a retune. To use a full 3x00 (taking full advantage of the power package) you require a new ECU, wiring, and fabrication of the dog bone mounting. If I missed anything let me know, you guys can have your pissing contest I just want it to benefit the community.

If you're able to drop the cradle and replace the engine, and able to wire in a stereo, you're able to do a full 3x00 swap. People seem to think it's more complicated than it really is.

Instead of all this conjecture, why not just settle this at the track during the 30th event?

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Instead of all this conjecture, why not just settle this at the track during the 30th event?

I'd love to, but my car won't be there, nor would it even be a fair comparison, as mine is F/I.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

quote Originally posted by secre7skw3rl: Can we get to the part of this argument that seems to be the start/have the most relevance to the Fiero community? You can use a 3x00 bottom end and a Fiero top end by using custom length pushrods and a retune. To use a full 3x00 (taking full advantage of the power package) you require a new ECU, wiring, and fabrication of the dog bone mounting. If I missed anything let me know, you guys can have your pissing contest I just want it to benefit the community.

The stock ECM handles it fine when you reuse the Fiero top end. I just switched to the '7730 before I found out the stock ECM could be reprogrammed to handle DIS when I decided to use DIS.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: I run on same track with the same car. The only thing that changed was how good the engine was running so stop your excuses.

I have yet to deny that your car is making good torque and is performing well for what it is, and your track times show an improvements were made over time. Saying the Fiero iron heads are superior to the aluminum 3x00 and 3500 heads is flat out false, there is no truth in that statement at all. 0 zip zilch. the ONLY one-up they have on the aluminum heads is that they are a direct bolt, and it takes such minimal effort to use the aluminum heads, that it's silly not to. they damn near bolt in.

I'm out of here, my points have been beat into the ground, your points still don't have a damn thing to back them up. anyone with their eyes open can see the difference, and will be able to make a educated decision on what to do.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: I have yet to deny that your car is making good torque and is performing well for what it is, and your track times show an improvements were made over time. Saying the Fiero iron heads are superior to the aluminum 3x00 and 3500 heads is flat out false, there is no truth in that statement at all. 0 zip zilch. the ONLY one-up they have on the aluminum heads is that they are a direct bolt, and it takes such minimal effort to use the aluminum heads, that it's silly not to. they damn near bolt in. I'm out of here, my points have been beat into the ground, your points still don't have a damn thing to back them up. anyone with their eyes open can see the difference, and will be able to make a educated decision on what to do.

Trolls always you put words in people's mouths.
I have told everyone many times that I accept they outflow iron heads on a flow bench.
I then said for the RPM we run it doesn't matter since you'd need a bigger engine or a lot more RPM before the heads are your primary restriction.

If iron heads are the junk you claim, I wouldn't have even flowed enough air to make that torque and they should have topped out around 200 ft*lbs going by the ratio in "flowbench" performance. It was blatantly obvious on my 187/249 dyno that I was hitting the limits of the stock Fiero intake neck (~300CFM) and even clearing that, I would have shortly hit the limit of my D.Morse 57mm throttle body (325 CFM) which is why I changed to a Trueleo with L98 throttle body. It took about 2 years to tune it properly because 1) I own 3 cars actually 4 if you count the 1997 vette I sold 2) I was relying on internet tunes 3) I had multiple issues with it and my 4.9 replacement as documented in yet another thread

Rather than read details, you just started to troll. Kept asking me for a dyno when even before you asked I told everyone I suffered frame and suspension damage and wouldn't have the car back for a couple of months. I then showed you Oreif's engines where he grossed over 230HP from 2 different 3.4's with iron heads and he would have made more if his exhaust wasn't stock diameter. He even was only running 9.4 compression. So much for your "theory" that iron heads are junk.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Instead of all this conjecture, why not just settle this at the track during the 30th event?

The 30th isn't at Seekonk, and other peoples' cars aren't necessarily 'tuned' for that track, because they don't race there every weekend. And even if they were, it doesn't give any accurate information about the flow of the heads, or the torque and power curves produced by an engine where the only difference is a set of iron heads or aluminum heads, with the same amount of work done to them. There are way too many variables.

lou_dias is just being a troll, and taking some comments too personally, about the efficiency of the iron vs aluminum heads on the 60 degree engines, because he's personally chosen to use the iron heads, and has decent with them on his preferred track.

quote Originally posted by bcampbell: In case anyone cares, my 3500/4-speed just put down 206 whp and 252 ft. Lbs of torque. It also makes over 200 ft lbs. at 1800 rpm. And my tune needs work as well. Everything is stock except for the y-pipe. Dyno charts were posted on 60degreev6.

Good numbers... your engine vs. a 3400 sounds like the difference between an LS2 and LS3... the LS3 only makes a bit more peak power, but the torque curve is MUCH flatter.