quote Originally posted by Will: '04 Saabs have a 3.91 gear... Now that GM is using the F40 in more applications, there are more final gears available for it.

I think the 3.91 gear was only available in the AWD version, and only for a short period, no? What more applications are they using the F40 in now? The only newer car I know of with an F40 is the Buick turbo.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 02-25-2013).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: I think the 3.91 gear was only available in the AWD version, and only for a short period, no? What more applications are they using the F40 in now? The only newer car I know of with an F40 is the Buick turbo.

The Buick has a 6 speed auto, I didn't see a manual option. Maybe it's a late edition, or not available in the U.S. like the V6 turbo. Okay, found it, here are the specs:
http://media.buick.com/medi...erano/2013.tab1.html first gear is a compliment for the towing package I guess. Good to see it's still around and may get stronger.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-25-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Will: AND YOU'RE STILL WRONG And you refuse to actually engage on this topic after I point out the flaw in your analysis on multiple occasions.

You've stated your math. I never agreed with it. The ultimate answer will lie in my dyno of my 3.4 using a good tune and free flowing intake. If I can't make comparable results to a 3400 motor, then you are correct. If I make the similar results, then I am correct that the heads are not the limitation in performance of our engines.

As Oreif has done, a 62mm throttle body + Trueleo intake with stock sized exhaust has already put down 205 rwhp. I hope to exceed that on the dyno. If you look at my bad dyno, my peak was was at a higher rpm than with the Fiero intake but still lower over all, I just lost a large chunk of power over all and you can see that from the wavy chart that I was pinging and had a pig-rich tune from Darth. I'd say I have a good 33% increase over that(my) dyno. You keep wanting to discuss theory, why not just wait for my dyno rather than continue this pissing match?

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-25-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: The Buick has a 6 speed auto, I didn't see a manual option. Maybe it's a late edition, or not available in the U.S. like the V6 turbo. Okay, found it, here are the specs: http://media.buick.com/medi...erano/2013.tab1.html first gear is a compliment for the towing package I guess. Good to see it's still around and may get stronger.

Oh. I didn't know the Verano had it as well. I was thinking of the Regal Turbo. Looks like it might be available without the turbo on the Regal too. But the gear ratios aren't any better for us it seems. That first gear would be nuts with a V8.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: You've stated your math. I never agreed with it.

Not agree + Can't state whats wrong = irrational.

quote Originally posted by Will: Not agree + Can't state whats wrong = irrational.

Well your math was simple and quite unrealistic so it's not worth arguing over.

You can look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_flow_bench
You computed a steady state pressure for the valve when the combution cycle is quite dynamic. The higher dynamic pressures increase how much air flows into the cylinder.

As I said, it's not worth arguing over 'theory'. My future dyno will speak for itself.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Well your math was simple and quite unrealistic so it's not worth arguing over. You can look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_flow_bench You computed a steady state pressure for the valve when the combution cycle is quite dynamic. The higher dynamic pressures increase how much air flows into the cylinder. As I said, it's not worth arguing over 'theory'. My future dyno will speak for itself.

Wikipedia? Ok... lol.
Did you read the image description? That's a simulation.

Go find David Vizard's chamber pressure trace.

quote Originally posted by Will: Wikipedia? Ok... lol. Did you read the image description? That's a simulation. Go find David Vizard's chamber pressure trace.

Oh you mean the guy that would be the first person to tell DeathStarr that his primaries are too big?

Listen, I'm done talking theory with you. One man's chamber pressure is not another's.
The trolls on 60degreev6 question my dyno. Slowhawk Performance did my dyno. They don't need to inflate #'s. The owner built my brother's motor and here he is doing 10.2 second passes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsqc0u4qKjw
The shop's reputation speaks for itself and you can go find them on the East Coast Members area of LS1Tech.com
The shop didn't tune my engine because he doesn't work on OBD1. I was at the mercy of internet tunes for far too long.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-25-2013).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: ...I just lost a large chunk of power over all and you can see that from the wavy chart that I was pinging and had a pig-rich tune from Darth. I'd say I have a good 33% increase over that(my) dyno.

If you honestly believe that you're living in a fantasy land. If you think you're going to pick up 33% with a Truelo intake, larger throttle body and a "tune", then I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in. You must hang out with a bunch of rice boys who think that any red decal applied to their engine is worth 10-20HP. By only switching your middle and upper intake for a Truelo, a larger throttle body, and any "tune" will never net you another 61.7HP at the wheels. No way at all.

EVERYBODY LOOK:


See torque drop after 4000?

Torque comes from high average cylinder pressure. (MEP, or mean effective pressure- google it)
MEP, or high cylinder pressure comes from cylinder filling.

Torque is dropping after 4000 RPM - look at the graph.
Clearly, the induction system (cam included) cannot feed cylinders with enough air per stroke after 4000 rpm. The farther you go over 4000, the bigger the deficit becomes.

Math aside, theory aside, circle track racing aside, look at the data from the test. It shows not enough air per combustion event at high RPM.

Lou is achieving excellent results at his racetrack because his engine is relatively efficient down at 3500-4000 RPM, where it's needed for his track.

P.S. Will's math is correct.

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 02-25-2013).]

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: EVERYBODY LOOK: See torque drop after 4000? Torque comes from high average cylinder pressure. (MEP, or mean effective pressure- google it) MEP, or high cylinder pressure comes from cylinder filling. Torque is dropping after 4000 RPM - look at the graph. Clearly, the induction system (cam included) cannot feed cylinders with enough air per stroke after 4000 rpm. The farther you go over 4000, the bigger the deficit becomes. Math aside, theory aside, circle track racing aside, look at the data from the test. It shows not enough air per combustion event at high RPM. Lou is achieving excellent results at his racetrack because his engine is relatively efficient down at 3500-4000 RPM, where it's needed for his track. P.S. Will's math is correct.

I love it when trolls look at my old dyno with the Fiero intake...

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: I love it when trolls look at my old dyno with the Fiero intake...

That's the dyno YOU posted in the OTHER thread on this topic. I would gladly look at other data had you provided it. This whole phucking thing is so dumb you're making me want to do a 3500 swap myself.

Like you Lou, I have an underdog piece of **** engine in my car. The difference is I don't claim it to be on par with current (within the last 10 years) technology.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: That's the dyno YOU posted in the OTHER thread on this topic. I would gladly look at other data had you provided it. This whole phucking thing is so dumb you're making me want to do a 3500 swap myself. Like you Lou, I have an underdog piece of **** engine in my car. The difference is I don't claim it to be on par with current (within the last 10 years) technology.

You're a troll because you made an ignorant post. Look at the date on that dyno. That's when I was using the Fiero intake which gets choked by the neck after 4100 RPM. You really proved that you haven't read anything and just came here to troll.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: I love it when trolls look at my old dyno with the Fiero intake...

So this is the new dyno, which still shows a drop-off of torque above 4000, but which is less drastic. Wait a minute, it shows basically the same curve even; except all the numbers are about 25% lower than with the Fiero intake on a distributor. So you're saying you've picked that 25% back up after tuning, but won't be able to get a dyno run until May? But do you really expect the curves to be any different?

Also, could you answer the couple of questions I asked in my last reply to you, about how you're actually driving the car on that track?

edit: Also, please stop calling every single person who disagrees with you, a troll. It's childish. Grow up and take responsibilities for your own actions. Instead of calling people names, if they are responding based on incorrect data, then correct it, rather than just saying "no, you ignorant troll." Because all that does is make you an ignorant troll.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 02-26-2013).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Slowhawk Performance did my dyno. They don't need to inflate #'s. The owner built my brother's motor and here he is doing 10.2 second passes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsqc0u4qKjw The shop's reputation speaks for itself and you can go find them on the East Coast Members area of LS1Tech.com The shop didn't tune my engine because he doesn't work on OBD1. I was at the mercy of internet tunes for far too long.

Argument from Authority = logical fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

Measurements > simulations

quote Originally posted by dobey: So this is the new dyno, which still shows a drop-off of torque above 4000, but which is less drastic. Wait a minute, it shows basically the same curve even; except all the numbers are about 25% lower than with the Fiero intake on a distributor. So you're saying you've picked that 25% back up after tuning, but won't be able to get a dyno run until May? But do you really expect the curves to be any different? Also, could you answer the couple of questions I asked in my last reply to you, about how you're actually driving the car on that track? edit: Also, please stop calling every single person who disagrees with you, a troll. It's childish. Grow up and take responsibilities for your own actions. Instead of calling people names, if they are responding based on incorrect data, then correct it, rather than just saying "no, you ignorant troll." Because all that does is make you an ignorant troll.

Look, I have linked to my thread many times. I am being asked to repeat myself many times. I have posted ALL information about my car in my thread. I have trolls repeatedly taking dynos and information out of context to make me look bad when it's obvious they are just trolling.

Bottom line: go read my thread. If all your questions are not addressed, then I am happy to answer a real, sensible and intelligent question.
I have been completely open about my build, including my legal battle with the original mechanic who was supposed to install my original engine.
I have nothing to hide.

Will the updated dyno test in May be done on the Dynojet or Mustang dyno?

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: Will the updated dyno test in May be done on the Dynojet or Mustang dyno?

It will be done at the same place as the most recent dynojet one since he's alot closer to where I live now.
From what I understand about Mustang dynos they increase the load over time to simulate actual driving conditions (like wind resistance) IIRC.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Look, I have linked to my thread many times. I am being asked to repeat myself many times. I have posted ALL information about my car in my thread. I have trolls repeatedly taking dynos and information out of context to make me look bad when it's obvious they are just trolling. Bottom line: go read my thread. If all your questions are not addressed, then I am happy to answer a real, sensible and intelligent question. I have been completely open about my build, including my legal battle with the original mechanic who was supposed to install my original engine. I have nothing to hide.

Listen, troll. THIS thread is YOUR thread. YOU started it. You chose to make another thread, make certain claims, and try to move the discussion out of other threads, into this one. Don't get your panties in a twist just because now you don't want to deal with the consequences of your own actions.

YOU go read MY questions, which are perfectly valid, sensible and real questions. But since you're obviously a lazy git too encumbered with personal grief about your engine build which you so valiantly are trying to defend, I guess I'll have to repeat myself. So here you go. If you won't answer these then please just STFU and stop commenting with your nonsensical defensive reactionary BS. Thanks.

1) What is the top MPH you run at that track?
2) What gear are you in when you cross the finish line?

quote Originally posted by dobey: Listen, troll. THIS thread is YOUR thread. YOU started it. You chose to make another thread, make certain claims, and try to move the discussion out of other threads, into this one. Don't get your panties in a twist just because now you don't want to deal with the consequences of your own actions. YOU go read MY questions, which are perfectly valid, sensible and real questions. But since you're obviously a lazy git too encumbered with personal grief about your engine build which you so valiantly are trying to defend, I guess I'll have to repeat myself. So here you go. If you won't answer these then please just STFU and stop commenting with your nonsensical defensive reactionary BS. Thanks. 1) What is the top MPH you run at that track? 2) What gear are you in when you cross the finish line?

Troll:
This is a thread about HEADS, iron and aluminum on a GM 6/60 V6. You are making it about my car. I only cited my car to show there is potential in IRON heads. I also cited Oreif's build to show iron heads can make >200rwhp. I will answer your questions now even though they are mostly OT for THIS thread:

1) I am entering turn 3 somewhere between 80-90 mph, never have time to actually look...but I have to jam on the brake at that point.
2) after turn 2 I never leave 3rd gear.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Point is, the dyno operator is a pro tuner and there was no playing with #'s. If I make 240 hp with a stock 3400 cam, I will be quite happy. My ass-o-meter says 210-225.... However, that's the million dollar question every troll doesn't want to wait until May to be answered. Until I use a similar cam with a similar exhaust, with a similar intake - that question will never really be answer now - will it?

I never said there was number-playing... just that I don't think you're going to eclipse aluminum head results with iron heads... you just won't.
I think you'll need a good bit more cam to get to 240 whp.

quote Originally posted by Will: I never said there was number-playing... just that I don't think you're going to eclipse aluminum head results with iron heads... you just won't. I think you'll need a good bit more cam to get to 240 whp.

No, it wasn't you, that was for other people to read.
I don't think I will get 240 either. I'm estimating 210 maybe a bit more. But again, that's on the stock cam. It makes the peak where I want it, I may need to just get more lift out of it with a regrind if/when I tear down this motor...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-26-2013).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Troll:

Yes you are.

quote This is a thread about HEADS, iron and aluminum on a GM 6/60 V6. You are making it about my car. I only cited my car to show there is potential in IRON heads. I also cited Oreif's build to show iron heads can make >200rwhp. I will answer your questions now even though they are mostly OT for THIS thread: 1) I am entering turn 3 somewhere between 80-90 mph, never have time to actually look...but I have to jam on the brake at that point. 2) after turn 2 I never leave 3rd gear.

YOU made it about your car. Every single comment you made, was about your car, what time you ran at the track,, etc… I asked specific questions about the heads only, which you refused to answer, and then tout as being irrelevant, because you have a dyno run from your car, so the flowcharts won't show anything useful. You only care about how fast you're going at that one track.

So, since you only want to talk about a specific build using the iron heads, I'm trying to do it using data you can at least more easily provide, and should be willing to do.

But you know, whatever. You're obviously a troll. You only want to talk about your car, how fast it goes at your track, and the peak HP it produced on a dyno. You want to ignore all the facts, because they don't line up with your fantasy. The aluminum 60 degree heads have already been proven to be better, in multiple threads, on multiple forums. I'd say it's not the intakes or heads necessarily holding your engine back to the ~4000 RPM drop-off of torque that you're making, but your cam and valvetrain are more likely holding you back; even were you to still be running the Fiero intake.

With a better cam and the 3500 heads, you could be crossing the finish line at 15-16 seconds on that track, and closer to 100 MPH, not 19 at ~85 MPH. But instead of looking at the facts, and the full spectrum of data, you're being overly personal, sensitive, and defensive, about the whole thing and you're own build.

Either you're building to race, or building to just enjoy. Either way maybe you're enjoying it now, maybe your not. But you don't have to go around trolling and being a jerk about it, because you feel personally involved having got to where you are with that build. Plateaus happen. What you've built so far is laudable, but it doesn't make you the Encyclopedia Mechanica on the matter.

And if you're building it for racing, I think it'd be great to see you get across the line faster at that track, but I also don't have a personal stake in it. So I'm not going to get upset if you don't. But I'm not going to act like you can't do better either. So do whatever you want. But don't act like you're the King.

But I will totally find it amusing if you come back in 3 months with a dyno that shows roughly the exact same dyno chart you got with Fiero intake, and again with the Trueleo intake and bad tune on DIS.

quote Originally posted by dobey: YOU made it about your car. Every single comment you made, was about your car, what time you ran at the track,, etc… I asked specific questions about the heads only, which you refused to answer, and then tout as being irrelevant, because you have a dyno run from your car, so the flowcharts won't show anything useful. You only care about how fast you're going at that one track. So, since you only want to talk about a specific build using the iron heads, I'm trying to do it using data you can at least more easily provide, and should be willing to do. But you know, whatever. You're obviously a troll. You only want to talk about your car, how fast it goes at your track, and the peak HP it produced on a dyno. You want to ignore all the facts, because they don't line up with your fantasy. The aluminum 60 degree heads have already been proven to be better, in multiple threads, on multiple forums. I'd say it's not the intakes or heads necessarily holding your engine back to the ~4000 RPM drop-off of torque that you're making, but your cam and valvetrain are more likely holding you back; even were you to still be running the Fiero intake. With a better cam and the 3500 heads, you could be crossing the finish line at 15-16 seconds on that track, and closer to 100 MPH, not 19 at ~85 MPH. But instead of looking at the facts, and the full spectrum of data, you're being overly personal, sensitive, and defensive, about the whole thing and you're own build. Either you're building to race, or building to just enjoy. Either way maybe you're enjoying it now, maybe your not. But you don't have to go around trolling and being a jerk about it, because you feel personally involved having got to where you are with that build. Plateaus happen. What you've built so far is laudable, but it doesn't make you the Encyclopedia Mechanica on the matter. And if you're building it for racing, I think it'd be great to see you get across the line faster at that track, but I also don't have a personal stake in it. So I'm not going to get upset if you don't. But I'm not going to act like you can't do better either. So do whatever you want. But don't act like you're the King. But I will totally find it amusing if you come back in 3 months with a dyno that shows roughly the exact same dyno chart you got with Fiero intake, and again with the Trueleo intake and bad tune on DIS.

You're on crack. 11 second quarter mile cars are crossing the finish line at 18 seconds on this oval track. At 16 seconds they'd be 9 second 1/4 mile cars and this is a street car race.

Quit trolling. I keep saying wait until my next dyno and you continue to troll by asking questions that I can't answer because the damn car is in a collision center, you god-damn troll. I've said this about 10 times now and if you weren't such a god-damn troll you wouldn't be asking questions that a DYNO will not answer when I get the car back.

So quit pretending to ask legitimate questions when you know the anwers already. AKA STOP TROLLING.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: You're on crack. 11 second quarter mile cars are crossing the finish line at 18 seconds on this oval track. At 16 seconds they'd be 9 second 1/4 mile cars and this is a street car race. Quit trolling. I keep saying wait until my next dyno and you continue to troll by asking questions that I can't answer because the damn car is in a collision center, you god-damn troll. I've said this about 10 times now and if you weren't such a god-damn troll you wouldn't be asking questions that a DYNO will not answer when I get the car back. So quit pretending to ask legitimate questions when you know the anwers already. AKA STOP TROLLING.

Ok, troll. We'll all be laughing when you bring back that dyno run in 3 months, and it looks exactly the same as your old dyno with the Fiero intake.

I'm surprised this thread isn't in the Trash Can yet.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Ok, troll. We'll all be laughing when you bring back that dyno run in 3 months, and it looks exactly the same as your old dyno with the Fiero intake.

Look at your ratings bar.
I'm willing to provide actual information.
You just come here with fake interest just to post senseless trash.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: Look at your ratings bar. I'm willing to provide actual information. You just come here with fake interest just to post senseless trash.

No. You did that. Read the first post in the thread. And then go read all the responses, and all the questions for which you aren't providing information, all the people you have called trolls for disagreeing with you, and your outright refusal to accept facts as real. I came here with interest in facts and numbers, which you have consistently failed to provide when asked for, whether it was myself or someone else asking for them.

I'm sorry, but Will and ericjon are at least 90% right here, and you're closer to 90% wrong.

My ratings bar is irrelevant. So I've pissed off a few special cliques on here in the past. Don't act like you're a shining knight in armor. Your ratings bar hasn't even shown up yet. For all you know, there's plenty of red on yours too.

If you didn't want to deal with answering questions, whether you agree with them or not, you should have never started this thread in the first place.

quote Originally posted by dobey: No. You did that. Read the first post in the thread. And then go read all the responses, and all the questions for which you aren't providing information, all the people you have called trolls for disagreeing with you, and your outright refusal to accept facts as real. I came here with interest in facts and numbers, which you have consistently failed to provide when asked for, whether it was myself or someone else asking for them. I'm sorry, but Will and ericjon are at least 90% right here, and you're closer to 90% wrong. My ratings bar is irrelevant. So I've pissed off a few special cliques on here in the past. Don't act like you're a shining knight in armor. Your ratings bar hasn't even shown up yet. For all you know, there's plenty of red on yours too. If you didn't want to deal with answering questions, whether you agree with them or not, you should have never started this thread in the first place.

What's ridiculous is you ask questions only to do insults not related to the questions. If these pretenders would have actually read all the details, they wouldn't be asking questions and I wouldn't be repeating myself to trolls. Pretty sad when they admit to trolling this thread in another site (60degreev6.com). At the rate you're going you won't be around to respond to my dyno...

bottom line, GENIII alum topend still better than any GENI combination.


/thread

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: What's ridiculous is you ask questions only to do insults not related to the questions. If these pretenders would have actually read all the details, they wouldn't be asking questions and I wouldn't be repeating myself to trolls. Pretty sad when they admit to trolling this thread in another site (60degreev6.com). At the rate you're going you won't be around to respond to my dyno...

OK. Instead of responding to people. YOU were the one calling people names and attempting to insult them. I have done no such thing. Rather, I simply asked questions, trying to get you to provide answers relating to the actual thing you claim to want to discuss, but instead, you simply resort to calling names, stating irrelevant data, and being a troll.

You don't read, comprehend, think, and reply. You simply react, in a defensive manner. It's getting old already.

What's sad is how personally you're taking the whole thing.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 02-26-2013).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: OK. Instead of responding to people. YOU were the one calling people names and attempting to insult them. I have done no such thing. Rather, I simply asked questions, trying to get you to provide answers relating to the actual thing you claim to want to discuss, but instead, you simply resort to calling names, stating irrelevant data, and being a troll. You don't read, comprehend, think, and reply. You simply react, in a defensive manner. It's getting old already. What's sad is how personally you're taking the whole thing.

The answers were in my thread and heck watching the videos I linked also answered them but rather than click on links, you started talking trash. If you post like a troll, you're a troll.
For instance troll #1 said he missed the post(s) where I said my car was out of commission and that I'd be providing a dyno in May.. Yet in post # 4 of this thread what did I say: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/127199.html#p4

You pulled similar stunts asking questions that have already been answered. If you can't be bothered to read the thread and follow links then why post in it if not other than to troll?

What's sadder is how everyone with aluminum heads is taking this. Sad that a troll had to incite people from another forum to come here and troll the thread. That's what's sad. Almost as sad as me making 249 ft*lbs with 30-40 year old technology and newer tech can only troll about it...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-26-2013).]

Even if the iron heads could be made to make as much power as the aluminum heads, they still need porting and an aftermarket intake to get there, plus they simply don't have the knock resistance or minor weight savings no matter what you do.

It think that should make it obvious which are better. When you're talking about the mods you did to make the power with iron heads, you could have had that power in less time and with less investment by simply using stock parts.

quote Originally posted by bcampbell: they simply don't have the knock resistance or minor weight savings no matter what you do.

I measured about 30 lbs difference between the sets, that's far from a minor savings.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: The answers were in my thread and heck watching the videos I linked also answered them but rather than click on links, you started talking trash. If you post like a troll, you're a troll. For instance troll #1 said he missed the post(s) where I said my car was out of commission and that I'd be providing a dyno in May.. Yet in post # 4 of this thread what did I say: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/127199.html#p4 You pulled similar stunts asking questions that have already been answered. If you can't be bothered to read the thread and follow links then why post in it if not other than to troll? What's sadder is how everyone with aluminum heads is taking this. Sad that a troll had to incite people from another forum to come here and troll the thread. That's what's sad. Almost as sad as me making 249 ft*lbs with 30-40 year old technology and newer tech can only troll about it...

OK Troll. You didn't say "May." Or "April" which is what you said you said. Make up you mind about when it'll be done already.

You have never answered the flowchart questions. You keep talking about peak HP, and your track time. Both are mostly meaningless when discussing what heads are actually better.

What's sad is you. Instead of talking about the technology, you're trying to talk about peoples' ratings on this forum, or calling them trolls, or other names. Grow up already. Nobody really cares if you make 249 ft lbs (which you're not, according to the 'latest' dyno), or not.

Either make the effort to provide the relevant and requisite technical data, or STFU. You never should have started this thread if you're just going to moan about how you can't get a dyno that people are asking for, until May. Get the dyno and then start a thread about how great your dyno is. It still won't be a better dyno than a Gen III motor with the same work done to it as you've put into your 30 year old hodgepodge of an engine. Great, you made some power out of an old engine. Let's all applaud your effort. An E on your report card. But don't get pissy because everyone's moved on to better things. Stop being a overly defensive and obsessive git and worry about your own ratings, pal.