Just got my BOV in the mail and im a little confused about how exactly this will fit into the intercooler piping.
The BOV is made of aluminum i presume.
And the flange this guy sent is made of steel and he said that "people usually weld these into their setup"
So how the hell is that steel flange supposed to hook up to aluminum tubing? Or do I ditch the flange and just connect the BOV to the pipe? If so, how the hell do I do that! haha sorry this whole BOV thing has been confusing the crap out of me.
your charge piping doesn't have to be aluminum but it can be. you'll need to grab an aluminum BOV fitting if you want to weld it to an aluminum charge pipe but is may be easier to use a short section of steel charge pipe 3-4" long just to get the BOV muted.
PS why are u using a BOV anyway? with a turbo setup the turbo will continue to spin even after the throttle shuts this creates a surge of extra boost, which can be blown off by the BOV. with a supercharger it's belt driven so when the throttle closes the rpms drop on @ the crank at the same rate as the blower. there wont be a rush of extra air.
I was wondering that myself. Supercharger's generally have an internal bypass valve,but that isn't the same as a blowoff. It does something similar but for different reasons,and eatons have the bypass built in. Are you twincharging? Never seen one on a supercharger,are you just buying parts or do you have a plan layed out? You're kinda all over the place here with not much thought it seems.
Your using a blowoff valve in place of a bypass valve when you don't actually need either one and already have a bypass valve built in. Your also using a divorced mount SC as a top mount,which makes zero sense unless i'm missing something. If you got it free,sell it for a top mount. You need to an intake adapter anyway,just chop down the existing flange on the top mount so it is narrow enough to fit and then attach your adapter.
What part am I missing? I've got everything but the time to do this but would have never thought of doing any of it this way. Really seems like you have a great idea and started buying parts with no plan or any idea how boost even really works?
NOT saying that is what your doing,just saying give some more detail why your doing it this way to clue us in on your plan.
Personally,I would have simply divorce mounted it since it would be simplest. Barring that,I would have sold the existing divorce mount thunderbird m90 and bought a low mileage gen3 from an L67 for $100. Then (i'm assuming you have metal working/welding skills) chop up the mounting flange to cut it down as much as possible and then mount directly to the lower manifold with a box-type adapter between. The hardest part would prob be adapter and accesory drive,the rest is just building an intake (took me 10m to build one with scrap metal and a spectre filter that was laying around shop).
So what is your drive for doing it this way? Give us the rest of the details.
I was wondering that myself. Supercharger's generally have an internal bypass valve,but that isn't the same as a blowoff. It does something similar but for different reasons,and eatons have the bypass built in.
First off the stock bypass valve will no longer be attached to the SC because the intake tube that came with the SC will not work for this application and I made a plate with a pipe in its place to accept outside air from the stock Fiero intake area. So I want something to help combat compressor surge and If you had actually read the thread you would see I recieved input from other members on using a BOV.
Give that guy a read ^^^ Quote from that thread (and yes I know vortech make centrifugal superchargers): Originally Posted by Busarider The tech support guy from Vortech told me that if the car has a MAF that you have to use a bypass. If it doesn't you can use either bypass or BOV. As long as a BOV is before the MAF, it doesn't matter.
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Never seen one on a supercharger,are you just buying parts or do you have a plan layed out? You're kinda all over the place here with not much thought it seems.
I appreciate the comments.
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Your using a blowoff valve in place of a bypass valve when you don't actually need either one and already have a bypass valve built in.
See my earlier quote response.
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Your also using a divorced mount SC as a top mount,which makes zero sense unless i'm missing something. If you got it free,sell it for a top mount. You need to an intake adapter anyway,just chop down the existing flange on the top mount so it is narrow enough to fit and then attach your adapter.
What exactly makes no sense about putting the SC on top? Its my car and thats where I want it.
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What part am I missing? I've got everything but the time to do this but would have never thought of doing any of it this way. Really seems like you have a great idea and started buying parts with no plan or any idea how boost even really works?
And like I said earlier I do have a plan already and If you took two seconds to read my earlier posts then you would know what im looking to do. And I do know how boost works guy. I knew this build would bring criticizim like this so I guess Ill have to get used to it.
So the real question is should I even worry about compressor surge at 5-7 psi and just ditch the BOV idea? I dont have to have one, I just figured id make my system safe from compressor surge.
So the real question is should I even worry about compressor surge at 5-7 psi and just ditch the BOV idea? I dont have to have one, I just figured id make my system safe from compressor surge.
and the answer to that is......... when you down shift does your belt slip....., I've heard '03 cobras have some belt chirp on down shifts but they are running 8-rib 2.6" pulleys and pushing over 800WHP with kenny bell blowers and under 10.5x 1/4 miles. so IMO i'd say no don't sweat it until you hear the belt slipping on down shifts.
Consentrate on getting that blower mounted as low in the valley as you can.
Sorry,didn't mean to offend you. I did read the whole thread,but never saw mention you were taking off the bypass valve or that a divorce mount type system needs a blowoff valve. Maybe I missed it,I skimmed over to refresh since several posts have been added since I last looked,oops.
None of my post was meant as criticism,it was meant to ask for info cause I could not understand where your going with it and wanted to figure out a way to help with it cause it is a cool project regardless. Thought I made that clear.
Since you got it all figured it,i'll just step off into a corner and let you do what you need to guy.
Well after a month, it runs! Nobody said it was close to driving condition but it runs (I have no exhaust passed the o2 sensor currently):
So when I went to start it up today, It would not start unless I held my foot down on the gas pedal all the way which is indicating to me that for whatever reason it needs more air. So once it starts, I had to keep tapping the gas till it finally "caught" and stayed on. Ran at around 2000 rpm and ran very rich as indicated by the smell and my narrow-band. After a few minutes I tried pushing the gas to see how it would react but all it did was drop to 500 rpm for about 30 seconds then died. Then I started it up again doing the same thing I did the first time and it again stayed at 2000 until I noticed that one of the idler pulleys was melting on a coolant hose coming off the water pump So I turned it off and the coolant pissed out but no big deal, I can return the pulley and get a new hose.
Heres the second start up and this is were pulley destroys itself:
Things Ive done:
2 BAR MAP
Intercooler (Not In Videos)
85 ECM w/ New EPROM
Knock Sensor
EGR Delete
Run on 93 (Do you have to do anything for the timing?)
So the problems seem to be the following:
Hard to start without hitting gas
Stumbles upon startup (Like a cold condition)
Runs very rich
Practically dies when you hit the gas
Vacuum looks low on my gauge
And I obviouslly need to make a new mount for that pulley!
If you guys can help me out by giving me some insight into how to get this guy on the road, that would be awesome!
I went out today and changed out the parts that got messed up yesterday and I also replaced the Coolant temp sensor and nothing changed. the following still happened:
Hard to start without hitting gas Stumbles upon startup (Like a cold condition) Runs very rich Practically dies when you hit the gas
So then I took the plug out of the CTS and ran fine for a good 5-10 mins and would occasionally bog down and then revive itself, but if you try to open the throttle at all it will drop from 2000 to 500 and dies. I tested the two wires from CTS to see if either were no good but they both were fine. After I did that once I really couldnt get it back alive. Multiple attempts at trying to start it with my foot all the way on the gas and will turn over for no more then 2-3 seconds and dies. I read to try and remove the MAP and see if that works so i will try it but other than that, Im out of ideas.
Sounds to me like you need to datalog and tune it. Sounds like the tune is way off. Why not get a chip burner and learn to tune yourself?
I'm helping a friend of mine with a similar 'build' in a 93 Sonoma but we're using a Gen II aluminum headed 3.1 and mounted the charger on the side (same charger as yours). It should be running within a week.
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12:46 AM
1fast2m4 Member
Posts: 514 From: Frederick, MD (U.S.A) Registered: Feb 2013
what have you done tuning wise? where do you have your MAP sensor getting it's signal from? where to you have the Fuel pressure regulator vacuum signal routed to?
I would suggest that you make sure both of those vacuum lines are routed before the S/C and never see boost.
Well today I tried starting up the car and would only turn over with my foot all the way down on the gas and will stay on as long as I tap the gas. So I'm curious as to what the problem can be there but without a doubt the problem has to be air getting into the engine because the car will not start without the throttle cracked open. Confirmed getting spark and fuel. Anyone understanding this?
The MAP sensor vacuum line NEEDS to be hooked up POST-SC (to the plenum) Also, I'm curious why you wouldnt hook up the FPR vac line post-SC (to the plenum). Lots of boosted Gen III guys running the stock FPR...
Sounds like the tune isn't allowing enough air in the engine via the IAC. You could change that via the tune or see what happens when you adjust the throttle stop.
Ok so with MAP and CTS changed and performing normally, I had found yet another problem. This time it was the battery voltage and the fact that the battery would run down and die everytime I let the engine run. So I decided to replace my battery for free anyway since my warranty was about to expire. Threw the battery in today and I confirmed that the battery wasn't the problem. I had guessed all along that the alternator isn't charging the battery since my previous battery was only a year old. So I decided to try taking the car out for the first time since adding the SC and Id say it was half successful. Started the car up and it hunted around 1000 -500 until i was done backing up and finally got off my driveway. Then I started to drive down the road and I had to put my foot into it much more than I would normally just to get the car down the road. I felt the car was very sluggish. I got down the road at one point and turned around because I didnt know if I would make it home due to the unpredictability of the new SC added on. So I started back home but I wanted to see what would happen if I go a little bit further, I passed my house and headed down a hill. I got to the bottom and turned around in a court and started my way back up the hill. Like when I first left my driveway, it was still hard to get any speed without putting your foot into it. But despite that, I did get up a pretty steep hill with not much of a problem at all. I got back to my driveway and by the time I got at the top, it died.
Im really not sure to take this as a positive or negative but at least I now know that the alternator is not charging the battery. Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?
Went out and ran the car again. Before I did that, I tightened up the serp belt, as it was a little loose. Ran the engine, battery had a little over 12 volts while running. Checked the case of the alternator with the positive probe and i got .05 volts. Is that enough to say theres a bad ground somewhere? Also learned that the warm idle is around 500 RPM which I feel is a little low. Noticed im getting some smoke or steam at times out of my crankcase breather filter on my firewall side valve cover.
The smoke or steam is probably normal, it is blowby from the cylinders that would usually get sucked into you intake and burned, the filters stop oil vapors from escaping but maybe some still are.
Took off my blocked off EGR to replace a gasket and it was jet black on the bottom from soot. So I went ahead and pulled the O2 sensor and this is what I saw:
After I cleaned it:
I also cleaned the ground for my MSD 6A and that seemed to have taken care of the draining battery issue (FOR NOW!). Heres it running afterwards:
Somewhat better than usual but the idle hunts after about 30 seconds until it winds up dieing. My throttle stop screw was touched so im going to go through the reset procedure and get that back to normal. Took it out again and once again it backfired the entire time and I really had to put my foot into it to get it moving. I noticed the vacuum was extremely low while driving, so much so that my brake pedal could barely be pressed down. I have a feeling the timing needs to be adjusted.
With a stock 2.8, running 93 octane with 2 BAR MAP, Knock Sensor, Air to Air Intercooler with around 5-7 PSI of Boost, what should I set the timing to?
Sounds like the ECM is just badly out of tune. If there doesn't appear to be any mechanical problem then it needs datalogging and chip work. I don't know what chip you're using but with a custom build it's not going to be plug and play. The tune has to be customized. I've done a little tuning on a stock 2.8, and even with something that standard, I once had a chip that was off enough to make it run crappy and hard to start. It doesn't take much for that to happen. It's virtually guaranteed to happen with the first tune of a custom build.
Unless you're really loathe to do it, you should look into the equipment needed to at least datalog, and possibly also look into how to tune. First thing I would do is hook up to the ALDL port and check all the sensor signals, to at least make sure all of that is looking valid. If you don't do the tuning yourself, whoever does it is going to need datalogs that you record from the car as it runs.
There's a lot of tuning discussions for ECMs of this era at sites like gearhead-efi, 60degree6, and thirdgen.org. Although you'll find way more people with experience with the 7730, not the 85 Fiero ECM. Those would be good places to go if you want to do the tuning yourself but need some help with it. Thirdgen has some lengthy tutorials on the subject, maybe other sites do also. It's recommended to read some of those and get acquainted with the basics before you start asking for individualized help.
Otherwise, if you don't want to deal with it, there's people who will do mail order tunes. I think somebody mentioned one earlier. Being able to datalog your car would help them though.
As far as the battery drain, you mentioned that it's fixed but the picture still shows your "Volts" light on, which normally means it's not charging.
I don't know forced induction, but it seems to me that the MAP and FPR both need to see pressure after the SC, not before, or they can't measure what they're supposed to. I understand you've done this with the MAP, but I don't know if you mentioned what you did with the FPR. My understanding of the function of the FPR would imply it needs to see the air pressure that the injectors are spraying into.
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09:50 PM
bcampbell Member
Posts: 260 From: B.C., Canada Registered: Nov 2011
What ECM are you running and are you able to tune it yourself? Do you have a wideband installed? I personally wouldn't try tuning a FI car without a wideband. Typically timing should be stock when not in boost and retarded under boost. Some say 1* for every PSI of boost. In any case it sounds like the tune is way off causing the driveability issues....
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09:51 PM
bcampbell Member
Posts: 260 From: B.C., Canada Registered: Nov 2011
Also, if you're actually using an 85 Fiero ECM perhaps it's time to upgrade to at least a 7165; vastly superior, more tuning options, and nearly plug'n'play for the stock 2.8 engine harness.
IIRC the Fiero ECMs only update the ALDL info every 1.5 seconds or so, making them virtually useless for datalogging.
The base tune was done by a tuner that I gave my specifics for, so it's probably gunna needed to be tweaked of course. I have my Aldl cable coming in the mail so I will datalog as soon as I get it. I have a willem EPROM burner and eraser so I have what I need for tuning but of course I need to learn the basics first. I'm sticking with the 85 ECM since I haven't given it a chance yet but I do need more EPROMs . So timing should be at 10* at idle?
Are you talking about base timing? 10* I believe is the factory setting for base timing, and any other changes should be done with the ECM. That being said, if the ECM is only commanding 10* at idle that seems low. How has the ECM been setup to handle boost?
No offence, but it sounds like your tuning situation leaves a lot to be desired. You could probably pick up a 7165 for $50 or less and run $12p which has a lot of extra features and is setup for a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor already. I think there is a thread somewhere on here on how to run a 7165. I think only a few wires need to be repinned.
Check the last pic. The RPM shows 0 so I don't think you have the proper one of it idling. Also, the raw data pics don't help. Need the converted info.
Check the last pic. The RPM shows 0 so I don't think you have the proper one of it idling. Also, the raw data pics don't help. Need the converted info.
How can I get you the converted data? What Infor would you guys like for it to be more helpful?
The Build The basic design is roughly going to look like this:
Don't know if this helps, but looking at this, it made me think... maybe you don't even need to modify the intake plenum. Is there any reason why you wouldn't simply just want to mount the supercharger on top of the intake manifold, and just eliminate the runners and the plenum all together?
This would solve much of your engine height issues... I'm not even remotely an expert, but it seems like the intake runners don't really serve much use when you're using a supercharger anyway. Just a thought!
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 06-13-2013).]
So I turned it off and the coolant pissed out but no big deal, I can return the pulley and get a new hose.
