Its that time where I am considering doing a new drivetrain swap. It would be the 6th engine into go into this fiero (Latest one is the Ecotec LE61 hybrid if anyone remembers)

I recently got a Pontiac Torrent GXP and really like this LY7 thats in it. I gained interest in this engine after I realized it was the same engineering squad that designed the Ecotec line.

I didn't find much information on here about it but I'd like to hear some thoughts/concerns from everyone before I take the next step into researching it. One concern I had was the drive-by-wire. I've never had to deal with it before in my swaps.

I *could* run any transmission, using the same system I used to hook my ecotec up to the stock 5 speed thats in it (oddly enough its the original transmission 130+ miles and been paired with every engine swap!) but it is time to put a new transmission into it as well.

Anyways, thoughts/ideas?

If you want to make an adapter plate for it, then yes, you can run whatever transmission you like.

Note that there are very few High Feature V6 (the family the LY7 falls under) engines in production GM vehicles, which are mated to manual transmissions, so programming may be an issue. I think all the LY7 engines might also have VVT, so that may be a concern.

Dave (bmwguru) is currently doing a Saab 2.8 LP9 engine swap, which is the same engine family. You might want to pay attention to his thread. The LLT/LFX cars (Camaro, CTS), are the best option for looking for an ECM to run the LY7 with a manual, as a starting point, at least, assuming the ECM and wiring are the same in the LY7 cars. I haven't verified which ECMs all the HF V6 cars use. You could of course also try to use an aftermerket ECM, such as the Megasquirt, though I don't know how well they work with those engines, or if they do at all.

quote Originally posted by dobey: If you want to make an adapter plate for it, then yes, you can run whatever transmission you like. Note that there are very few High Feature V6 (the family the LY7 falls under) engines in production GM vehicles, which are mated to manual transmissions, so programming may be an issue. I think all the LY7 engines might also have VVT, so that may be a concern. Dave (bmwguru) is currently doing a Saab 2.8 LP9 engine swap, which is the same engine family. You might want to pay attention to his thread. The LLT/LFX cars (Camaro, CTS), are the best option for looking for an ECM to run the LY7 with a manual, as a starting point, at least, assuming the ECM and wiring are the same in the LY7 cars. I haven't verified which ECMs all the HF V6 cars use. You could of course also try to use an aftermerket ECM, such as the Megasquirt, though I don't know how well they work with those engines, or if they do at all.

I assume that there will be some tuning solutions to handle the DBW and transmission issues? However I have never used the stock wiring harnesses and ECM so I'm not sure if I need to get a motor with the original wiring harness back to the ECM or I could potentially put a motor from something else and select the best ECM/Harness for the swap later.

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: I assume that there will be some tuning solutions to handle the DBW and transmission issues? However I have never used the stock wiring harnesses and ECM so I'm not sure if I need to get a motor with the original wiring harness back to the ECM or I could potentially put a motor from something else and select the best ECM/Harness for the swap later.

I'm not sure what Ecotec you're running with currently, but the Ecotec family is pretty large, and there are some engines which are significantly different from others. If you're not running a DBW throttle though, I can guess you're probably running one of the earliest versions of the Ecotec, and not any of the new engines, which have a lot more going on.

If you're going with an aftermarket ECM, you could always make an adapter plate for the throttle body and go with an old cable driven throttle too, and just not worry about that part. I don't know what aftermarket ECMs (or older GM ECMs) are capable of running the High Feature V6 engines, that could make the swap as easy as a 3500 LX9, or early Ecotec. The LY7 you're looking at is quite a different beast than your current Ecotec though.

Your right, but I was hoping though that tuning solutions such as Trifecta (http://trifectaperformance.com/default.aspx) would be able to compensate and 'delete' things such as the BCM, drive by wire, automatic transmission input, etc. But keep the VVT.

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: Your right, but I was hoping though that tuning solutions such as Trifecta (http://trifectaperformance.com/default.aspx) would be able to compensate and 'delete' things such as the BCM, drive by wire, automatic transmission input, etc. But keep the VVT.

Bump.
Check this thread...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/fo...some-tech-going.html

I was researching this a bit, tonight, and stumbled across that thread (and this one.)
Per Trifecta, the LLT (DI) is apparently capable of being made to run "stand alone", including the use of a manual tranny (IF you believe the thread.)
He said the LY7 shouldn't be a problem, but that it hadn't been tested yet (as of 2011.)
Sadly, the thread kind of died out...

Trifecta's website lists several applications for the LY7. I'm not sure what they are capable of doing, however.

If you decide to pursue this, please let us know. I'm interested in this as well.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-31-2013).]

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/091238.html
http://www.lotustalk.com/fo...ement-2x-fun-102052/

bmwguru is doing a swap of the Saab 2.8t + F40. There's also a guy doing a turboed 3.6 with F40, into a Lotus, on the Lotus forum.

At this point, I don't think it will be as hard to accomplish as it used to be, but still is probably more work than your average swap.

Mounting the drivetrain is as easy as a 3800. The tricky part is the operating system. The Saab F40 does not have a VSS. I've been pondering the use of the stock Bosch ecu, which I know I can make work. The more I look into it, the AEM Infinity will do the job as well and let me keep my drive by wire, variable valve timing and work well with my WB and other goodies. I'm about two to three months away from making that final decision. Money isn't the factor in my decision as the overall end product is.
Dave

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www.hausofguru.com

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: One concern I had was the drive-by-wire. I've never had to deal with it before in my swaps.

My last swap was DBW and that was actually one of the easier aspects of the swap. You just need the matching pedal for the ECM, make a flat adapter bracket to install it, and then run the wires between the pedal and the ECM (newer ECM's no longer use the TAC module so the pedal connects directly to the ECM) vs. finding the right throttle cable bracket and making a bracket. The newer GM ECM's require the use of the electronic pedal and an ECM swap is required when trying to do a throttle by cable conversion, but then you lose DoD/AFM and VVT as the logic isn't in the older cable operated ECMs. The reason they require DBW is that as DoD/AFM or VVT systems activate, the ECM needs to be able to make throttle blade adjustments to maintain speed. It can't make these adjustments with a cable operated throttle body. The other issue is the GM DBW ecms do not have IAC control as there is no IAC anymore, they just manipulate the throttle blade position (and timing) for idle control.

I agree...It is easier to hook up 6 wires and mount a gas pedal than try to fit an accelerator cable in my opinion. The cables would have never reached on my TDI and VR6 swaps.
Dave

Since you guys have been into these newer PCMs a bit, do you know if the protocol that runs the BCM and (particularly) the instrumentation is the same, across different models? (Guessing the the BCM actually runs the instruments. I could be wrong.)
Wondering if the ECM/PCM out of an Acadia (very common source for the LY7 and 6 speed auto) would be able to drive the instrument panel from, say, a Malibu or CTS, for example?
Not really important. Just a matter of curiosity at this point.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Since you guys have been into these newer PCMs a bit, do you know if the protocol that runs the BCM and (particularly) the instrumentation is the same, across different models? (Guessing the the BCM actually runs the instruments. I could be wrong.) Wondering if the ECM/PCM out of an Acadia (very common source for the LY7 and 6 speed auto) would be able to drive the instrument panel from, say, a Malibu or CTS, for example? Not really important. Just a matter of curiosity at this point.

Any 2008+ USDM vehicle must use the CAN bus. The GM-LAN/Class2 bits are pretty much the same regardless of year. And lots of GM vehicles from around 04+ are using CAN anyway. The BCM doesn't really "run" the instruments. Most all the electronics necessary to run any instrument cluster, are in the cluster itself. You just have to hook up the wiring right. Some things do require a BCM, such as the DIC (avg mpg, inst mpg, etc… bits). The ECM out of any same-year vehicle with the LY7 should be the same. GM may have changed the ECM up a few years ago. But general rule of thumb is that the ECM will be the same across vehicles with the same engine option. Different engines in the same vehicle may have a different ECM. And, the programming may be different for different vehicles, due to variances in size/weight/etc…. The SIDI engines have a different ECM, though

As an example, you might want to look at RickAdy88GT's LS4 swap, where he's using Malibu instruments (I think, maybe Monte Carlo; he's using parts from both for different bits of the interior, and I don't recall exactly which is which right now) with an LS4.

Thanks man!

I am following this thread with great interest. Up to now the majority of Fiero swaps have involved older generation of V6 engines. Even the popular 3800 was discontinued in 07, 6 years ago. The GM high feature engine appears to be the ideal next generation swap but as pointed out there are many issues that need to be addressed. I am also not aware of any editing software for the PCM's on vehicles that use the LY7 or engine swaps with it, but I could be wrong.
I like Dave's idea to keep the drive by wire and use the gas pedal module. As for the CAN bus, I've found that a tricky animal to work with let alone do an engine swap with. As most of you know the CAN PCM's digitally interface with just about everything on the vehicle that they are installed in. The transmission, radio, power accessories, locks, windows, ABS module, instrument cluster, and security systems are all on a serial bus protocol that controls the entire car. I could not imagine a work around at this point but as they say nothing is impossible.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: As for the CAN bus, I've found that a tricky animal to work with let alone do an engine swap with. As most of you know the CAN PCM's digitally interface with just about everything on the vehicle that they are installed in. The transmission, radio, power accessories, locks, windows, ABS module, instrument cluster, and security systems are all on a serial bus protocol that controls the entire car. I could not imagine a work around at this point but as they say nothing is impossible.

Pretty much every LS swap that Archie has done in the last 5 years, is running on a CAN bus ECM. Also, almost every LS4 swap is using a CAN based system. I think all the Series III 3800 engines were also run on CAN as OEM, so anyone running one of those with the Series III PCM is also almost certainly using CAN. CAN is pretty easy to deal with actually. And it's one of the best things to have been made a requirement on new cars made in the US, in the last 10 years. I can take a laptop and a single cable, and read the data log from any 2008+ vehicle, and many, though not all, from 2004+. While there are still some manufacturer specifics allowed behind the scenes, the basic info is now the same across the board. With the manufacturer specific protocol info, you can also do a lot more, straight from the OBD port. It's quite nice.

The main problem with programming the newer engine families is that there is just a LOT more information to deal with. A lot more sensor inputs and a lot more fuel mapping tables, such as dealing with different octane levels or ethanol mixtures. More information in the computers means it takes more time to figure certain things out. The lack of aftermarket and mod options for many of the new engine designs, also makes it harder, as there is less of a need to tune the engine, and majority of customers of HPTuners aren't generally interested in tuning these engines, so HPTuners concentrates on other areas where they are sure to make money. Basically, it's business as usual.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Pretty much every LS swap that Archie has done in the last 5 years, is running on a CAN bus ECM. Also, almost every LS4 swap is using a CAN based system. I think all the Series III 3800 engines were also run on CAN as OEM, so anyone running one of those with the Series III PCM is also almost certainly using CAN. CAN is pretty easy to deal with actually. And it's one of the best things to have been made a requirement on new cars made in the US, in the last 10 years. I can take a laptop and a single cable, and read the data log from any 2008+ vehicle, and many, though not all, from 2004+. While there are still some manufacturer specifics allowed behind the scenes, the basic info is now the same across the board. With the manufacturer specific protocol info, you can also do a lot more, straight from the OBD port. It's quite nice. The main problem with programming the newer engine families is that there is just a LOT more information to deal with. A lot more sensor inputs and a lot more fuel mapping tables, such as dealing with different octane levels or ethanol mixtures. More information in the computers means it takes more time to figure certain things out. The lack of aftermarket and mod options for many of the new engine designs, also makes it harder, as there is less of a need to tune the engine, and majority of customers of HPTuners aren't generally interested in tuning these engines, so HPTuners concentrates on other areas where they are sure to make money. Basically, it's business as usual.

You are correct. The LS family of V8's enjoys good editing support as it is a popular performance engine. IIRC there are also aftermarket ECM's made especially for this platform with strong programming support. Same with the Ecotec. The challenge is to now be able to swap a LY7 engine and handle engine management. It appears that is yet to come. I thought that perhaps a LS4 PCM can be used. There is editing support for that unit but then how do we handle the LY7 VVT feature? When the engine management issues are worked out, this will be my next swap but until then, I'll sit on the sidelines and allow the pros to get to work.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: You are correct. The LS family of V8's enjoys good editing support as it is a popular performance engine. IIRC there are also aftermarket ECM's made especially for this platform with strong programming support. Same with the Ecotec. The challenge is to now be able to swap a LY7 engine and handle engine management. It appears that is yet to come. I thought that perhaps a LS4 PCM can be used. There is editing support for that unit but then how do we handle the LY7 VVT feature? When the engine management issues are worked out, this will be my next swap but until then, I'll sit on the sidelines and allow the pros to get to work.

I don't think trying to use an LS ECM to control a LY7 (or other High Feature V6, makes any sense. It would be doable, but the program is going to be completely different from the LY7 program, for example. Also, some of the sensor signals may be different, and won't match up to what the LS program expects. You basically have no good starting point, and likely won't even be able to get the engine to fire. The LY7 ECM should be usable. It's just a matter of figuring out which tables are what in the ECM, really.

I'd wait to see what bmwguru does to get his LP9 swap running. It looks like he's made good progress on getting the engine in the car at least. Don't know when he'll have it running though.

I have a game plan, a backup plan and a third backup plan for my Saab 2.8t swap's operating system. I know that I can make the factory Bosch ecu work, but I know it is limited for what I want the car to do. HP Tuners will tune the computer. I have been speaking with AEM's tech support and gave them the engine's specs to ensure that their system will work. I also looked into other aftermarket tuning companies as well.
My budget is to keep the ecu setup under $4500.
I am not building my car with the intent to keep it on a budget for everyone. I am building it for my needs and my wants. Using the factory ecu will keep the option open for future swaps, but I want few aftermarket features on my swap that I can't achieve with the factory ecu.
As for CAN-BS lines, it is 4 more wires to hook up....I don't see what the big deal is. As stated before, it allows all the computers to communicate with each other and be diagnosed though the OBD II port.
Dave