I know paint topics have been covered a million times in different threads (because I read a lot of them) but I have yet to see a thread where some people recommend epoxy primer and others a urethane primer, and others both. I would like to just use a urethane primer and not an epoxy primer. Is this acceptable? I figure urethane primer will be as flexible as urethane bumpers.

Actually I use lacquer on my bumpers. It also is flexible. Any good primer will do on fiberglassed parts. The epoxy is good for restoring old metal parts, but a Fiero needs only very basic primer. I've used urethane finish and it works well, but, not as well as lacquer.

You can buy Duplicolor premixed and it works like a charm. It is also easy to repair errors. If you are an amateur painter, you will make errors.

Arn

Anywhere I've seen epoxy recommended I have seen epoxy or urethane recommended. They are both very good.

found this online:
"The biggest difference between epoxy and urethane is quality. A two part urethane primer will out last a two part epoxy primer. The epoxy primer will eventually 'chalk' and tint yellow, causing discoloration in the topcoat. Epoxy is however cheaper and cures faster. "

"Epoxy is renowned for its superior adhesion. It’ll bite into just about anything and hang on for dear life. It fills well, so it’s ideal after blasting and it also features incredible corrosion resistant properties, so if your paint job does get chipped or nicked down the road, having epoxy snug up against the metal will protect against rust creep. In general, epoxies don’t sand very well, though there are some exceptions (like Eastwood’s).

If a high build, easily sandable material is what you are after, then a 2K urethane primer is the way to go. This type of primer builds quickly, giving you plenty of material to sand smooth for a level, even surface before moving on to color. Think of the 2K primer almost like joint compound. You apply it to seams in wall board, let it dry, then sand almost all of it off. The trade off is (if done correctly) a perfectly smooth surface – whether on your living room wall, or the side of your car.

Some jobs call for only one of the two, while other jobs will require both; an application of epoxy followed by the 2K urethane primers surfacer.
..You could apply our Urethane primer over the epoxy to block the body smooth. "

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 06-03-2013).]

Discoloring primer under your base coat? Never heard of it. Painted lots of cars.

Sounds like it is quoted from someone interested in selling two part primer. Number one, you have to have the equipment to spray epoxy. Number two, you need a better respirator. Number three, it is totally unnecessary on a fiberglass car. It is intended for metal work. Discoloring a paint job due to sun damage? Discoloring due to degradation? Never heard of it.

Hope this helps.

Arn
(the old fart in the corner)

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Actually I use lacquer on my bumpers. It also is flexible. Any good primer will do on fiberglassed parts. The epoxy is good for restoring old metal parts, but a Fiero needs only very basic primer. I've used urethane finish and it works well, but, not as well as lacquer. You can buy Duplicolor premixed and it works like a charm. It is also easy to repair errors. If you are an amateur painter, you will make errors. Arn

That's what I used. Duplicolor Paint Shop series. Primer, base & clear. With wet sanding, compounding, polishing & waxing, it turns out great.

I use laquer primer 95% of the time. I will use catalyzed urathane primer on special cases like where I need a hard seal over something bad. I never have had a problem in 45 years in the profession. I have seen primer discolor a finish on very rare occasions...usually on a light yellow or white with age. Last one I remember was a white Honda. For whatever reasons, the damage I repaired and primered seeped up and started yellowing the white repaint after just a few years. I repaired it again the same way and it was fine. I have no idea. I have no issue with lacquer primer ordinarily under lacquer, acrylic enamel, enamel, urathane or base/clear coat paints. I also prefer self etching red oxide as it seems to hold the paint much better than light gray over the long haul.

I am looking at the TCPglobal line, and I am looking at a laquer acrylic that I will not clear coat, and a Laquer acrylic primer. Duplicolor does not have enough color choice, I want to paint it red, and they only have 2 reds, and only one of them is a gloss.

Your color coat does not have to be gloss. You can spray mat and then clear over it with gloss clear.

I have done paint jobs when I was young and inexperienced, witrhour clear coat. Believe me the old enamel auto paints held up, but the newer paints need a clear coat to keep their color and resist sun and pollution. Doing clear with lacquer does not increase your cost much for the benefit in serviceability.


Arn

Then I would rather do a urethane base clear because the laquer clear costs as much as the the base and clear for urethane combined. I figured laquer with no clear because repainting panels would be much easier. But if the clear adds that much durability I will go for a urethane base clear package.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Anywhere I've seen epoxy recommended I have seen epoxy or urethane recommended. They are both very good. found this online: "The biggest difference between epoxy and urethane is quality. A two part urethane primer will out last a two part epoxy primer. The epoxy primer will eventually 'chalk' and tint yellow, causing discoloration in the topcoat. Epoxy is however cheaper and cures faster. " "Epoxy is renowned for its superior adhesion. It’ll bite into just about anything and hang on for dear life. It fills well, so it’s ideal after blasting and it also features incredible corrosion resistant properties, so if your paint job does get chipped or nicked down the road, having epoxy snug up against the metal will protect against rust creep. In general, epoxies don’t sand very well, though there are some exceptions (like Eastwood’s). If a high build, easily sandable material is what you are after, then a 2K urethane primer is the way to go. This type of primer builds quickly, giving you plenty of material to sand smooth for a level, even surface before moving on to color. Think of the 2K primer almost like joint compound. You apply it to seams in wall board, let it dry, then sand almost all of it off. The trade off is (if done correctly) a perfectly smooth surface – whether on your living room wall, or the side of your car. Some jobs call for only one of the two, while other jobs will require both; an application of epoxy followed by the 2K urethane primers surfacer. ..You could apply our Urethane primer over the epoxy to block the body smooth. "

"The biggest difference between epoxy and urethane is quality. A two part urethane primer will out last a two part epoxy primer. The epoxy primer will eventually 'chalk' and tint yellow, causing discoloration in the topcoat. Epoxy is however cheaper and cures faster. "
Seriously? SERIOUSLY??? Wow there is SO much mis-information on the web it's unbelievable. I've seen PPG epoxy hold up to weather for decades, without any topcoat. It's what a lot of the rodders use instead of semi-flat black because it holds up so well. And, apparently the folks that said this never bought PPG epoxy primer 'cause "IT AYN'T CHEEP"! Now, the cheap crap epoxy primers are pretty much useless, IMO.
I use the PPG epoxy on everything I do, 'cause I like to make my paintjobs last AS LONG AS POSSIBLE (decades at least), & I do sometimes use both the epoxy & a hi-build 2k primer on parts that need a lot of blocking. Then I always seal with epoxy before spraying the paint.
Lacquer primer is NOT flexible! It will crack if bent even slightly once fully cured. The PPG epoxy (with the 401 catalyst) will stick better & is more flexible than any other primer.
Roger, the incident you spoke of occurred probably because you used base/clear urethane over lacquer primer. The thing about lacquer primer, is that it's not catalyst-hardened & therefore when you topcoat it, it soaks up some of the reducer from the base coat. Once the clear hardens it traps that reducer & can cause all kinds of problems (I know: you've gotten away with it for decades...).
But hey, as with most of these paint threads, the OP wants to use cheap crap paint so none of this really matters anyway. Someone in (probably) the near future is going to have to strip off all this crap primer & paint in order to do it right.
To answer the original question, urethane primer will be OK to use by itself, as long as you have a solid base to work with sanded with 180 dry (as on a DA). At least a lot better than lacquer primer... But why bother using even that if you're going to use crappy paint?
With the time it takes to properly prep a car, I can't see using crap/cheap primer & paint that will not last as long as POSSIBLE. If you're on a tight budget, spend the money to seal the car with the PPG epoxy primer, & shoot it with Dupont NASON base/clear. It's what I use on my cars ('cause I'm poor) & it holds up well. Saves about $400 over using PPG base/clear, & about $700 over using Sikkens (the two brands I use on customer's cars when they want top of the line & are not on a tight budget).
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 06-04-2013).]

I have read really good things about the tcpglobal paint lines, I have yet to read something bad about it actually. My car is no show car by any means, I just want the paint to last is all. If you have a better suggestion at a price point of less than 400 for primer and paint then link me and I will check it out. But I have yet to see someone say something bad about the tcpglobal paint.

But seriously I have just been researching, not bought anything so link me if you have a suggestion. This is my first time painting with a gun, I have a friend to help me and we are using his equipment because he has a whole painting setup. There are no autobody stores or automotive paint stores near me (like that I have seen) so I have just been looking at internet paint.

Looking up the Dupont NASON paint I have found a dealer for it near my town, how much does it cost for the paint I will need to buy to prime, paint, and clear coat my car?

I intend on running my car at the track so I really am not looking for a show quality finish that is just going to get wrecked, I am just sick of peeling paint and oxidation.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 06-04-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: ..Now, the cheap crap epoxy primers are pretty much useless, IMO. ~ Paul.. aka "Tha Driver" Custom Fiberglass Parts

I think qualities of product is what leads to confusing advice in alot of areas for sure. If everyone used PPG wouldnt the world be a better place

" Roger, the incident you spoke of occurred probably because you used base/clear urethane over lacquer primer."

Nope, it was a fluke. I do almost every car the same exact way. I say one or two defects in literally thousands of paint jobs is well beyond acceptable. I use lacquer primer under base/clear urathane on nearly every job in the last 25 years....including my own and others show cars, and museum quality cars. On that particular job, i sanded it, reprimered it and repainted with base/clear exactly the same as originally and no further problem. Like I said, it was a fluke and I can give no reason why it yellowed.

Another one me or no other person, including paint manufacturer (House of Kolor), could figure out was a custom van I did in blue lacquer all over with yellow HOK candy graphics. After a year of driving, the yellow turned completely white. I redid the candy yellow striping, again in HOK lacquer with lacquer clearcoat just as before. It again turned white after a year. I redid it again using a regular brite yellow. It stayed yellow for at least the next 10 years. Stumped everyone. The clear did not turn white, the actual yellow paint turned white under the clear.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: "The biggest difference between epoxy and urethane is quality. A two part urethane primer will out last a two part epoxy primer. The epoxy primer will eventually 'chalk' and tint yellow, causing discoloration in the topcoat. Epoxy is however cheaper and cures faster. " Seriously? SERIOUSLY??? Wow there is SO much mis-information on the web it's unbelievable. I've seen PPG epoxy hold up to weather for decades, without any topcoat. It's what a lot of the rodders use instead of semi-flat black because it holds up so well. And, apparently the folks that said this never bought PPG epoxy primer 'cause "IT AYN'T CHEEP"! Now, the cheap crap epoxy primers are pretty much useless, IMO. I use the PPG epoxy on everything I do, 'cause I like to make my paintjobs last AS LONG AS POSSIBLE (decades at least), & I do sometimes use both the epoxy & a hi-build 2k primer on parts that need a lot of blocking. Then I always seal with epoxy before spraying the paint. Lacquer primer is NOT flexible! It will crack if bent even slightly once fully cured. The PPG epoxy (with the 401 catalyst) will stick better & is more flexible than any other primer. Roger, the incident you spoke of occurred probably because you used base/clear urethane over lacquer primer. The thing about lacquer primer, is that it's not catalyst-hardened & therefore when you topcoat it, it soaks up some of the reducer from the base coat. Once the clear hardens it traps that reducer & can cause all kinds of problems (I know: you've gotten away with it for decades...). But hey, as with most of these paint threads, the OP wants to use cheap crap paint so none of this really matters anyway. Someone in (probably) the near future is going to have to strip off all this crap primer & paint in order to do it right. To answer the original question, urethane primer will be OK to use by itself, as long as you have a solid base to work with sanded with 180 dry (as on a DA). At least a lot better than lacquer primer... But why bother using even that if you're going to use crappy paint? With the time it takes to properly prep a car, I can't see using crap/cheap primer & paint that will not last as long as POSSIBLE. If you're on a tight budget, spend the money to seal the car with the PPG epoxy primer, & shoot it with Dupont NASON base/clear. It's what I use on my cars ('cause I'm poor) & it holds up well. Saves about $400 over using PPG base/clear, & about $700 over using Sikkens (the two brands I use on customer's cars when they want top of the line & are not on a tight budget). ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver" Custom Fiberglass Parts

Driver on point yet again.. Great post.

I do LOVE epoxy primer and buy it gallons at a time... but I do not always use it on stuff that people want done cheap. I personally always use it as a base and a sealer, its great and even has some great UV properties.

I have read now on a couple places that SPI epoxy primer is even better than PPG, and that that is all they will use on anything they paint. It is also cheaper than PPG, so does anyone have any experience with it?

The reason by the way for the original question is that I am on a budget (college) and I am going to need to have a sandable primer because of the repairs I have to do on the bodywork, and I am not skimping on the bodywork getting evercoat products, but I wanted to know if I had to use an epoxy primer since I would also have to buy a high build primer.

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: I have read now on a couple places that SPI epoxy primer is even better than PPG, and that that is all they will use on anything they paint. It is also cheaper than PPG, so does anyone have any experience with it? The reason by the way for the original question is that I am on a budget (college) and I am going to need to have a sandable primer because of the repairs I have to do on the bodywork, and I am not skimping on the bodywork getting evercoat products, but I wanted to know if I had to use an epoxy primer since I would also have to buy a high build primer.

Doing quality on the cheap? I would stick to spending the cash on some decent high build primer (evercoat slicksand or equiv, if you are really cheap some lacqur high build "will work" if you let it dry for awhile), skip the epoxy unless you are going to lay down some top shelf top coat product, I would spray a small amount of epoxy primer as a sealer.

I will give you the fact that base/clear is much more flexible than lacquer...and it also requires a lot less upkeep. Ive never had any problem with lacquer primer on a flexible body part. The only ones ive had ever crack were those destroyed in an accident that would need replaced anyway. I never use flex 'agent' in anything either as it never works at all...its snake oil. The ONLY bumpers Ive had paint crack on was early GTOs and Firebirds with the ' Endura' bumpers. Even the factory never mastered painting them to not crack. EVERY early GTO I ever seen has cracked paint on them, unless theyre stripped and repainted often. Ive even seen them cracked on cars under car covers and only taken to shows.

BTW, I use Evercoat High Build Red Oxide.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-05-2013).]

DH how much epoxy primer would I need to spray a little for a sealer? And what would your idea of a quality primer be?

Dont equate 'quality' to price. Any automotive name brands are quality. That can be Sherwin-Williams, Dupont, Ditzler, PPG, Nason, Silkens, BASF/RM....etc. Some of those name brands are also high priced. It dont make them necessarily any better. A Cadillac costs twice as much as a Chevy and both cars can be just as good. Ill never pay $75 for a quart of primer. It does nothing any better than a $50 @ gallon name brand primer any more than paying $4.50 a gallon for gas makes it any better than $3.90 a gallon gas.

I'm sorry, but that is completely wrong. The old adage "you get what you pay for" DEFINATELY applies to automotive paint! I've tried different brands of paint & primer over the decades & the cheap crap is just that - crap. It would take far too long to list the different experiences, but there's a REASON I use nothing but PPG epoxy primer... even on my cars as poor as I am...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

Its wrong says you. I personally think everything from PPG is just overpriced crap. Your welcome to buy that $6.00 a gallon gas thats better too. Other manufacturers would have gone out of business if theirs was crap. Why dont you ever get over yourself. Just say YOU dont like something. Your not a paint God like you think you are. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...but its being a butthole to say only what you say is right and anything that contradicts your opinion is wrong. Are you Obumas long lost brother or something ?

Only dumb azz people live in Florida because of all the hurricanes they have (spoken in my best 'driver voice') *just to make the point, no offence to Floridians.

I think Driver is just saying that in general when it comes to paint, don't cheap out. I don't think he is saying PPG is the only good paint. PPG can be overpriced and still be good at the same time, doesn't mean it is not overpriced. Like snap on tools in my opinion, I love them and they are super high quality, but they are way overpriced and you can buy other good tools at a much lower price but only slightly lower quality. But thanks to all you guys I think I have a good idea of what I am going to do for primer and paint.

I did "I'm sorry" first thing....
I'll take your analogy one step further: folks who build stick built houses on the coast are stupid.
IMO, sikkens is the best paint. It's far more durable & chip resistant than anything I've seen. BUT, you'll spend $700 to $900 on base & clear alone. Not everyone can afford that. It's why I recommend Nason base/clear for budget jobs (I use it on my own cars), BUT I only use it over PPG epoxy prime 'cause I like for my paintjobs to stick the BEST THEY CAN & last AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.
The other epoxy primers that I've tried don't even compare.
I'll say it again: you get what you pay for with automotive paints.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

I can live with paintjobs that last 40+ years with no problem. I think its kind of pointless to have a paintjob on a car last longer than you can drive. The average person dont consider their car a family heirloom.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I can live with paintjobs that last 40+ years with no problem. I think its kind of pointless to have a paintjob on a car last longer than you can drive. The average person dont consider their car a family heirloom.

If you can get a paintjob to last 40+ years out in the weather & driven daily, without using primer, more power to you. The folks whose car's I paint plan to keep them & expect them to last & look great for a VERY LONG TIME. (either that or they expect the best 'cause they're very expensive cars & plan to get top dollar if they do sell them).
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Discoloring primer under your base coat? Never heard of it. Painted lots of cars.

It happens!!! Just look at this car! It used to be white!!!




Hah, I'm sorry... I know this isn't off/topic...

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: So... I'm a butthole for posting my experiences over the past 4.5 decades of doing both repair work & show cars/custom paint. WHATEVER. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver" Custom Fiberglass Parts

No, your a butthole for saying your way is the ONLY way to do anything. I got you beat. Ive done wrecks, museum cars, showcars (even Pebble Beach), exotics, full customs, im published in books and magazines, and ive been at it longer...almost 5 decades.. My first job was a Fiat Abarth in 1962...all over color sanded and buffed. Shops I worked at even invented some of the custom paint techniques. Far as I know, I was the first to paint a car with pearl 'paint'....it was shot in pearlescent fingernail polish (ya, it was lacquer) and no one had ever seen anything like it at the shows it went to. I dont know for sure if anyone beat me to 'lace' paint, or cobbwebbing either.

The TCP line which I assume you are using the "Restoration Shop" line of their paints works awesome. If you want to stay single stage and not go through the hassle of a clearcoat, get their single stage urethane paint kits. I use them all the time and as a matter of fact, I just did a hood scoop and a wing last weekend. They both came out like glass with no buffing. The only thing I will recommend is that you pick up a quart of their reducer. The single stage paint kits only come with the hardener and they are a little too thick.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: No, your a butthole for saying your way is the ONLY way to do anything.

Where did I say my way was the ONLY way????

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I got you beat. Ive done wrecks, museum cars, showcars (even Pebble Beach), exotics, full customs, im published in books and magazines, and ive been at it longer...almost 5 decades.. My first job was a Fiat Abarth in 1962...all over color sanded and buffed. Shops I worked at even invented some of the custom paint techniques.

And yet you still insist on using lacquer primer - technology that is thousands of years old, & not near as good as current technology (epoxy primer). And yeah, you got me beat by 3 or 4 years in the exp. department. I only rebuilt my first total in 1967 (I was painting a couple years before that).

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Far as I know, I was the first to paint a car with pearl 'paint'....it was shot in pearlescent fingernail polish (ya, it was lacquer) and no one had ever seen anything like it at the shows it went to. I dont know for sure if anyone beat me to 'lace' paint, or cobbwebbing either.

So, you don't know if you invented lace or cobwebbing?
Far as I know, I was the first person to paint a car with an "HVLP" system. (using a vacuum cleaner - it was around 1968) Doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: It happens!!! Just look at this car! It used to be white!!! Hah, I'm sorry... I know this isn't off/topic...

It was actually [factory] maroon, then black, then all black sanded off, then grey primer, then yellow.

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Always
Loved
Fieros