i e-mailed bob lutz about possiblying even thinking about the fiero comeing back. i sent him an e-mail about a week ago and i got the response today and this is what he said: Dear Adam,

Thank you for your very kind note. Yes, the Fiero was a wonderful car, just
right for younger people. Personally, I liked the later "soft look" ones, with
the V6, better than the earlier ones. The trouble was, the company lost a lot
of money on Fiero because it was expensive to build. If you're looking for an
exciting Pontiac two-seat, small roadster, concept car, you may be happy at the
Detroit Auto Show.

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Adam J. B.

Wow, thats great that he took the time to write you. I can see Lutz only doing good for GM

Sounds sweet, except that the Fiero made $$$ every year of production.

When's the Detroit Auto Show?

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AIM: CanadianFiero

What a cool response. Bob Lutz sounds like a class act.
Wonder what he's referring to.
Still have his e-mail? Shoot it to me on PM, if you don't mind.

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Raydar - aka Steve

Black 88 Formula.
Red 88 Duke coupe. "The Project"
88 Formula parts car. "The Donor"

We need to invite this guy to one of the big Fiero meets! Adam, drop him a line and ask Bob to check out the Forum. I think he will be suprised at the following Fieros still have.

Rick
yellow 88 GT 5-speed "soft look"

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: you may be happy at the Detroit Auto Show.

I am thinking Opel Speedster. Renamed Pontiac Speedster of course. O.K. I'm dreaming, wake me up when we get there.

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Wow... I hate to ridicule people of high intelligence in the automotive world..But Bob Lutz is a Dumbass.

The Fiero was expensive to Build? Ahhh Bob what about the Corvette that lost money from the early 70's to 96?

It was the off the shelf Parts that made it cheap to build, GM never gave it a chance. They got it right , then canned it...YEah ..no one wants a small 2 seater car

1989 Miata.. Hmmm Good Call GM!

anyone who heard Hulki Talk at the michigan show knows the Fiero made money ,more than enough to keep it afloat , more than enough to pay for the redesign in 1988. It's production #'s were nearly twice that of the corvettes every year it was made , adn in 88 when they canned the Fiero early in production , it still managed to sell some 26,000 units..the corvette sold 23,000 for the whole year!

JM

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 10-09-2001).]

Expensive to build?!?! What a liar. The Fiero was one of the least expensive cars to build. Even with the upgrades done on the 1988 model years the cars were still inexpensive to build. The folks that built the Fiero now make the Saturn and if it was "so expensive to build", why is Saturn using the same concept? Why did GM use the same concept for the stupid vans for 12 years? GM corporate didn't like it because the Fiero plant was owned by the employees who made lots of money, Pressure from Chevy saying it cut into Corvette sales, and they wanted to build the vans is why they stopped making the Fiero. If I remember he's the same one that said way back when after they closed the Fiero plant, that the 2-seater market was falling off. Yeah, it fell off so much that the Toyota MR2 had almost double sales in 1989 and the 1989 Miata could not be bought for sticker price.
It was moron's like him that caused the Fiero to end.

You guys are thinking to narrowly......almost every car out there is built on a platform that is shared with another car (or several other cars), so the costs associated with building a particular car becomes cheaper in the long run.

Look at the Beretta & Corsica; Cavalier & Sunbird and new VW Beetle, Golf, Audi, etc......all share the same platform (within their respective grouping) and the savings from sharing major components means the car is cheaper to build.

The Fiero was the only car built at the Pontiac, MI plant, so it was, in essence, expensive to build. No other car at that time shared major components with the Fiero (as far as suspension, frame, etc.), so the costs could not be spread out over several different models.

It is true that the Fiero made money, but it was losing steam fast. It was about to hit the point where it would merely break even and then slip into the losing $$ mode (at least that was what was forseen).

Bottom line is the bottom line......GM was spending more to produce the Fiero compared to what it cost to build other comparable cars (as far as retail price), so it was not in their best interest to keep producing it. This is at least what they thought at the time the Fiero was killed.....who knew that a year or so later the 2-seater market would explode (thanks to the Miata)? Had GM known that they would certainly have kept the Fiero around for a few more years at least. Then maybe it would have found a better niche in the car market and would have been worth GM's while to continue building.

I still think it would have been killed eventually.....the economics of it all determined that.

I think we should enjoy our Fieros as they are and be thankful that any ever got made in the first place.

Does anyone HAVE any numbers showing that the Fiero actually MADE money for GM? Sales were good at first, but dropped sharply... Seems to me that GM lost out, and that's why they dropped it... Factor in development costs, advertizing etc., Remember that they had to build a new plant to make 'em...

Otherwise, cool that he wrote you back...

Well I have to stand off the the side one this one, at least for now. Can anyone show me any concrete numbers that says the Fiero was cheap to build? Until anyone can come up with proof that it was cheap or expensive to build, I reserve my right to make an opinion.

This is big news about the pontiac concept. So far they had only announced 3 of there 2002 concepts. I also heard that the fiero turned a profit every year including 1988.
I also plan on e-mailing Mr Lutz about the fiero.

quote Originally posted by gtjeff: As far as cost remember that the fiero didnt require paint booths- a huge cost savings. The color was molded into the plastic panels at the factory. Also many of the parts came from the GM parts bin.

I agree with the sharing of parts, but the panels were painted. All of the panels for each car were painted all together but seperated on a fixture. Saturns are painted the same way.

Still, guys. These are cost cutting measures. was the goal to make the car cheap to build, or cheaper to build? Couldn't they have easily charged more for the car, and skimped less? Why was it built at this budget? Smells to me like someone spent too much on R&D

The plant wasn't owned by GM so how does that make GM lose money? The plant was owned by the employees. It was the old Fisher Body plant that was set for demolishion. The management and employees paid to update it and set it up. Also per GM's contract with the Fiero Program, They had to sell 30,000 Fiero's per year to "break even". GM cut out 70% of the advertising budget in 1987 and nixed any design changes after the suspension and brakes were upgraded. (The suspension and brakes were actually designed in late 86 and tested in 87.) In essence the Fiero Program was a trial run for the Saturn program. It just that once GM messed with the Fiero program and killed it, the SAME management was handed the Saturn program. They changed/removed GM corporate's control.
That is why Saturn doesn't use "off the shelf" parts. Ever notice how Saturn has their own engines? Not GM engines? It is a fact that Saturn now has all 3 of the machines used to make the SMC panels from the original Fiero plant. From a business point of view the Fiero project was a great success. It's the GM corporate politic's that killed the car. These same idiotic politic's also killed the Cyclone and Typhoon Program, The Grand National program, and is suspected in playing a part in the F-body demise.
I don't think you can drive more than 2 blocks without seeing an F-body car around here. So obviously it's not that they can't sell them. They sell more F-bodies now than they did in the early 90's.
Bottom line is GM corporate office never like the Fiero program. Chevy screamed all over the place saying it was cutting into Corvette sales. (Although the mid 80's were some of the slowest vette's made) They also screamed when Fiero's started to out-perform the F-bodies. An overweight 305 Trans Am was slower than a Fiero GT. The F-bodies didn't get faster until they started dropping in the 350's. By that time GM corporate office was planning the demise of the Fiero.
If a plant owned by employees was such an "economic burden", Why has Saturn done so well? When Saturn started they only had one SMC machine. GM used the other 2 for the mini-vans. (Another reason why GM wanted the Fiero program to end, So they could hop on the mini-van bandwagon) Now the vans are made of steel, The 2 SMC machines got sent to Saturn, and suddenly Saturn has an LS size car and now an SUV.

BTW ~ Just get the "History of Saturn" book and it will explain how the Fiero Program set the stage for the Saturn program.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Ever notice how Saturn has their own engines? Not GM engines?

Actually Saturn's "ecotec" engines are used in non US GM cars. Mainly Opel, which the saturn LS is based on.

Sounds to me like Oreif hit the nail right on the head! I agree 100% w/ him. Alot of that I knew, but some parts I didnt (bailing out due to wanting to get into the minivan thing).
Its painfully obvious that some people at GM never wanted the Fiero in the first place. Remember, they had to pass it off as a "commuter car" at first to even get the approval. As the car progressed, the "anti-Fieroist" in GM cringed, Im sure....
Ford didnt want to make the Mustang in the early 60's when they were toying around w/ the idea...they eventually got the "ok" (wasnt it Lee Iococa that gave it the thumbs up?).
Some people........jeez.

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My 7 Fieros

quote Originally posted by Leper: Actually Saturn's "ecotec" engines are used in non US GM cars. Mainly Opel, which the saturn LS is based on.

Saturns engines are made by Engines USA out of Kentucky. They are not the same as the non-US GM engines. They even have performance parts that you can buy for your Saturn. The spokesperson for Engines USA usually brings a few to the annual picnic at the Saturn plant. I thought when Saturn made the LS Saturns it was their own design? You mean they lied on the video tape? All the design stuff on the tape was faked?

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 10-10-2001).]

Saturn's engines are the non-US GM ecotec engines... I drove a Vauxhall (Opel) Omega in Scotland last year- exactly the same platform as the Saturn LS/Caddy Catera. German design actually. Saturn obviously did the body design (yuck). But yes, the platform is common.

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: Saturn's engines are the non-US GM ecotec engines... I drove a Vauxhall (Opel) Omega in Scotland last year- exactly the same platform as the Saturn LS/Caddy Catera. German design actually. Saturn obviously did the body design (yuck). But yes, the platform is common.

Do you mean the V-6? I know for a fact the 4-cyl is only Saturn. (Unless they sell the 4-cyl to others.)

My Vauxhall in Scotland was running a (2.2L?) EcoTec 4. The V6 is a rare and expensive option in Britian! Check out the Omega CD model on Vauxhall's Website ...It's not the top of the line model, but what I rented.

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 10-10-2001).]

I think were some of the confusion lays is in engineering cost versus production cost. Once you factor in design, engineering, revamping an existing GM factory, and innovative production methods you come up with a comparatively low cost to produce an entirely new automobile. So I don't believe you can use engineering as an argument for the cars demise. Once the factory is up and running is when actual production costs start factoring in. Employee salary/benefits, vendor invoices, and all the associated costs in keeping a building running (electricity, water, taxes, etc). So the questions are, did the Fiero program recoup its initial engineering costs, did it manage to turn a profit during the production phase, and was enough profit being generated to continued engineering/design improvements?

Another question is we have all asked is "what might have been?" Like it has been said, '89 was the year for the Miata storm, and several small coupes rode its coattails (MR2s, even RX7s.) It looks like the 89 prototype Fiero was a bit longer than what we know and love, so maybe Pontiac was hoping to allow the car to mature into a stronger performance car. I don't know about the claim made that a Fiero GT could beat a F-body with a 305, that sounds a bit questionable, but I think that if Fiero had survived, the early 90s would have seen it becoming ever-faster, ending probably with 3800 V-6s or even V-8s, since the car was growing in size.

Anyone know what happened to that Prototype Fiero, or how many there are? I LOVE Pontiac prototypes and show cars. I still think the 88 Pontiac Banshee is the COOLEST looking car ever penned. By a mile. (I don't like recent pontiac protos though...all this "cross-over" stuff makes me nauseous.)

- Flamberge
(I need to read the FAQ so I can start posting a tiny version of my Fiero under ym signature.)

there were a few 89 pontiac fiero prototypes. I belive three are in existence today. i've actually seen recent pics on the internet that some one took while on the pontiac headquarters tour 3 89 prototypes parked in the testing yeards. This is the place where they usually put crash test and other damaged vehicles. One was a base coupe, the other a formula and the last a GT. they were all dark silver and dirty. probably sitting out there since 1989

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Adam J. B.

The Ecotech 2.2L 4 is not going to remain a Saturn only engine. First it is the engine that is in the Opel Speedster. Its also going to be making an appearance in the Grand Am and Sunfire/Cavalier this year. GM put it in Saturns first (LS) but had planned from the start to use it company wide. I have also heard rumors it might completely replace the 1.9L Saturn engines which are Saturn specific when the redesigned S series launches in 2003.

The 4 cyl Ecotec, at least a portion of them if not all, are built here in WNY. I remember reading a lot about the union negotiations at the GM Powertrain plant in Tonawanda (NY) when they were going to get the engine. GM wanted them to adopt Saturn's working setup and they were reluctant to, but did agree.

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: The Ecotech 2.2L 4 is not going to remain a Saturn only engine. First it is the engine that is in the Opel Speedster. Its also going to be making an appearance in the Grand Am and Sunfire/Cavalier this year.

The new 4's in the grand ams and cav's etc. are 2.3l engines. They make less hp than the 2.4 but I heard that they're bulletproof.

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: i e-mailed bob lutz about possiblying even thinking about the fiero comeing back. i sent him an e-mail about a week ago and i got the response today and this is what he said: Dear Adam, Thank you for your very kind note. Yes, the Fiero was a wonderful car, just right for younger people. Personally, I liked the later "soft look" ones, with the V6, better than the earlier ones. The trouble was, the company lost a lot of money on Fiero because it was expensive to build. If you're looking for an exciting Pontiac two-seat, small roadster, concept car, you may be happy at the Detroit Auto Show.

Ummm... it looks pretty trick!

Concept is still being built. Can't wait for the Detroit show now.

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 12-17-2001).]

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: there were a few 89 pontiac fiero prototypes. I belive three are in existence today. i've actually seen recent pics on the internet that some one took while on the pontiac headquarters tour 3 89 prototypes parked in the testing yeards. This is the place where they usually put crash test and other damaged vehicles. One was a base coupe, the other a formula and the last a GT. they were all dark silver and dirty. probably sitting out there since 1989

Those photos were taken by a friend of mine during a trip to the USA by a large group of Aussie Pontiac enthusiasts. I wont go into the trip details but we was informed at our last Pontiac nationals by Jim Mattison (who was over for the nats) that those cars were crushed last easter. As was everything in that holding yard.

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My Fiero | Fiero Accessories

The Detroit Auto show is always in early January - Usually beginnig the second week.If you haven't ever been there have fun parking and all other things associated with the wonderful experience that is Detroit. It is no doubt an awesome show that is worth the pain and anguish of traveling to downtown Detroit in the middle of winter.By the way Saturn is debuting a concept 2 seater there called the Sky that is said to be near - production ready. It has a styling theme that harkens back to 80's (90,s?) and is supposed to be pretty cool looking.

hey someone dug up my old topic! well gotts add my sig now that i have one

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Adam J. B.

you gotta keep on keepin on...
IM AOL: GTFiero & Rumpdetective (dont ask)

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: hey someone dug up my old topic! well gotts add my sig now that i have one

Yep, got to see some cool stuff today. Just wanted to let you guys know Bob wasn't bluffing.

Chevy guys are in for a suprise too. I don't know how well it's going to go over but at least GM is doing something.

quote Originally posted by Tigger: Yep, got to see some cool stuff today. Just wanted to let you guys know Bob wasn't bluffing. Chevy guys are in for a suprise too. I don't know how well it's going to go over but at least GM is doing something.

...and you're going to hold out on us, eh?

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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

I was thinking after reading motortrend that they were refering to Alfa Romeo's return to the US market under a GM brand name. Looks more then likely.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: ...and you're going to hold out on us, eh?

LoL, yes.

Well, ok, "heritage theme" and no it's not the SSR. They're also going to try a pretty revolutionizing concept idea, probably won't happen in the next generation of vehicles, but is definitely interesting.

Only a few weeks before the show, it wouldn't be exciting if I gave away the suprises.

Watch for Bob in the Pontiac unveiling and reports of the other concepts!