This is intended to be a FUN thread.

If you are one of the jerks who turned the 1st thread into a flame war, STAY AWAY!!!

The 1st thread started 14 days ago and we have a lot of catching up to do...... so let's get on with it.

You'll recall the following lines from the 1st post to the original thread.

Hell on earth.... Crazy Dave and Bob Ritz both in my shop pissin' at each other about who's Fiero will be the fastest & why.

I don't much care about who's going to be the fastest but I HATE having to listen to the **** for the next several days.

Dave is a GM snob & Bob is a Aftermarket Whore.

During the last 14 days we've completed our work on both Dave & Bob's cars. It was my intention in the 1st thread to give you daily reports on both cars. However some people decided to high-jack my thread because no one was paying attention to them in their own threads.

So now we have a bunch of catching up to do, let's see if I can bring you up to SPEED.

Let's talk about Crazy Dave 1st. Dave really is crazy (PFF= crazyd) he drives well enough but it's all or nothing all the time. This guy doesnot know the definition of moderation Dave had an '88 GT that was an automatic car and we converted it to a Getrag 5 speed when we installed the engine of his choice. The engine is a 430 HP fuel injected engine supplied by Street & Performance. This engine is built mostly with parts from the GM Performance Parts Handbook, thus the reference to "GM snob". You can read all of the details of Dave's V-8 swap at his thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/025173.html

Now, Bob Rutz is a customer of mine from Napa, CA. Last year we put a ZZ4 355 HP Crate engine with TPI injection into his 512 Boxer replica. Last year, when Bob arrived for his V-8 swap he got to my shop on 9-11-01. We built his car over the next 10 days and he drove it back to CA. I did post up some info about it as we built it but the events of that day rightfully overshadowed the joy of that swap. Well Bob is back. This time he was back for some improvements and when he arrived 14 days ago it was clear that it was going to be a more normal visit than his last one. Bob arrived on Thursday in time to attend the NIFE FieroRama and then on the following Monday we started the renovations on his engine. Bob had considered using an engine similar to Dave's engine but then, after consulting with his local hotrodders, he decided to use mostly aftermarket engine parts. Thus the reference to "Aftermarket Whore". Bob chose Edelbrock heads ported & polished, along with Ede. TPI intake and large runners, and a custom ground Isky cam, all fed by a BBK throttle body. Our job was to remove his ZZ4 engine, install all of the new parts and reinstall the engine and tune and test it.

The original thread started when Dave and Bob were both in my office, while I was trying to work, they were aggressively butting heads over who had chosen the best route to power.

If you all are interested, I'll post up some pictures and details of both of the swaps and of what it was like to be the referee between these 2 guys.

Archie

damn strait im interested

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--Adam--
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
IM AOL: GTFiero
What oil leak? That puddle under the car is just sweat from all that horsepower.

Post away my good man, they wouldnt happen to be the 2 I saw when I was there would they. I2 large engines at around 430 HP(maybe?) but they were modified, on the roof, know what I mean I dont know if its a secret or not, i doubt it. But just in case. But yeah, piccis please. Did they race BTW?

I am always intrested in seeing more of these swaps! Please Post'em Archie!

YES, YES, YES, PICS, DETAILS, DID THEY RACE?

THANKS,

MOBILE

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Member MN Fieros Forever 1986 GT. Self Installed SC3800/getrag almost everything performance wise is modified/upgraded, inside and out. Over 10 years in Car Audio and Car Electronics Experiance P.S. GOT 19"s??(all the way around)

DO IT DOUG!

PS: If Bob reads this, I live maybe 30miles away, in the town of Petaluma.

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

There isn't anything wrong with the right choice of aftermarket parts!!! Keep us posted!

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Click to Listen!

Hey Cali Kid, did you know that your car is in this months Hot Rod Mag? Just a small pic, but its in there!

quote Originally posted by artherd: If Bob reads this, I live maybe 30miles away, in the town of Petaluma. Best! Ben.

Bob's PFF name is rgeeinc he joined PFF last year when he was here for his original V-8 swap.

Originally Bob had a 3.1 Turbo which he drove here last year for the ZZ4 swap. He drove that back home and thruout this last year. Below are some pictures of that swap the day he left to drive it home. Then he drove it back to Chicago for the latest updates. We completed his car Monday of this week. He left for home in his 460 + HP Fiero Tuesday morning. I got an EMail from his real early today that he had made it home.

Ben, you should get ahold of him, I know he reads PFF everyday and he loves to take people for rides in his car. This car is very strong..... pulls like all get out..... Ben, it's going to give you a whole new idea of what Fast means.

This guy drives his V-8 Fiero, so far he's driven it 7500 miles just driving back and forth to my place besides all the miles he drives at home. I wonder if that qualifies it as "street driven" V-8 Fiero?

Archie

[Damn, I wish I had $$ too.. ]

Nice pec's Archie.. Thanks!!

[This message has been edited by Smoooooth GT (edited 09-19-2002).]

Hey, I got to see BOTH cars when I stopped by there last Saturday!! The 512 replica was nice. (for those that didn't see it a Fierorama) The engine (which they were in the process of tuning) looked GREAT. Dave and his car showed up a little while later and he was next in line for some fine tuning when I had to leave. (see his pics in his thread)

BTW ~ Archie, I'm just about done with your parts. They should be ready by Saturday.
Will you be around the shop this weekend???

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Smoooooth GT:
[B][Damn, I wish I had $$ too.. ]

Nice pec's Archie.. Thanks!!
QUOTE]

I know whatcha saying.

Archie! Just for trivia.. I was wondering how many V8 swaps you personally do in a year, or I should say, how many have you done total now?

PS: I remember checking out your website like 4 or 5 years ago, when your home page was setup like a city where you clicked on buildings and houses as links.

quote Originally posted by Archie: [/b]

As a point of reference, Here is what Bob's engine looked like when he left for CA on Tuesday.

I'll show you some more tomorrow.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 09-20-2002).]

I'll definately look him up

It should be fun, when I finally finish the silver car, it should be in the 460hp range, but it should feel very different than an SBC ;D)

We'll have to swap cars.

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by artherd: I'll definately look him up

Ben, We should get together. We are only about 30 min. away from each other.

Archie, Nice Pictures. they came out better then I thought. Sorry I didn't email you on Wednesday after noon, when I got home. I was just a little tired and went to bed.

For all PFF members that asked if Dave and I raced. The car's were not broken in enough to do that. They both had new clutches and they need some time on them before you go out and race them all out. I left Chicago with only about 75 miles on the new engine and clutch. I broke it in on the way home. Dave had a few more miles on his car then I did so I guess we will have to go the track and post time slips, at a latter date. After about 1400 miles on the engine and clutch, I did have some fun on the Bonneville Salt Flats Highway. Just a word, this car isn't just fast, IT'S SCARY!

Oreif, thanks for the kind word. Nice to see you, and all the PFF members I meet and Fierorama. I hope I will be able to do it again next year.

Thanks again Archie...

Bob...

I'd like to see some track pics when yall hook up.

Nice lookin' engine bay Bob.

Very nice job, Archie. Cool pics.

Very clean install.

MOBILE

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Member MN Fieros Forever 1986 GT. Self Installed SC3800/getrag almost everything performance wise is modified/upgraded, inside and out. Over 10 years in Car Audio and Car Electronics Experiance P.S. GOT 19"s??(all the way around)

quote Originally posted by fieroX: Hey Cali Kid, did you know that your car is in this months Hot Rod Mag? Just a small pic, but its in there!

Surprise to me, didn't notice any Hot Rod staff around the car at either the Hot Rod Power Tour in Pontiac, or the Woodward Dream Cruise.

Any details would be appreciated, also pm'd you to see if you could post picture, and if it was Sept or Oct issue.

Pontiac Enthusiast Mag shot a lot of pictures of my car during the Dream Cruise Weekend, which may appear in one of the coming issues.

Thanks,
Tom

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 09-20-2002).]

Bob or Ben,

How are you guys managing to meet the CA emissions requirements with those conversions? Is a special CARB certificate required? If so, what is the process like? This would be of great interest as I'd love to have a conversion to V-8 but not sure how much hassle smogging the car would be.

Thanks for any suggestions.

LLoo

quote Originally posted by TheDobe88GT: Bob or Ben, How are you guys managing to meet the CA emissions requirements with those conversions? Is a special CARB certificate required? If so, what is the process like? This would be of great interest as I'd love to have a conversion to V-8 but not sure how much hassle smogging the car would be. Thanks for any suggestions. LLoo

TheDobe88GT,
The best way to do a car in Ca. is to start with a new crate motor. LM1 with TPI and or something that was produced in a stock body car. A ZZ4 was never installed into a production car so you will never get it smoged. There are a number of guys that have smoged cars in Ca. If I were you and really interested in a V8 car in Ca. Go to a smog station and talk to some of the tecks and see what there requirements are. They will very from station to station and you may have to go to a few before you come up with any kind of reasonable answer. The Bay area is the hardest to do anything in. These guys don't want to let you do anything at all. But you just have to be persistent and it can be done.

If you have any more questions PM me and I will see if I can help.

Bob...

Hi Archie,
Just wanted to know if you got the pictures from me of Del's Dash?

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The Prezzz

Well, having Archie call me a crazy driver is sorta like Robert DeNiro complimenting your acting skills. Unless you've ridden in a V8 car with him you probably wouldn't understand, but suffice it to say it's quite an honor.

As far as the two cars go, anyone who has been around both of them at the same time--and granted that is a very small number of people--would see before long that they are really not comparable. Mine was built as a sleeper, and its quiet exhaust note and factory-engineered smoothness reflect that. One could say its stock camouflage thoroughly conceals its capabilities. This was a little unusual in the sense that many V8 owners choose to distinguish their cars more than I did. I see nothing wrong with the original GT design and didn't want to change it. Bob's, on the other hand, is more of a raucous, snorting, howling monster that makes no attempt to mislead its onlookers. I could've gone with a wilder cam & louder exhaust, but that wasn't the kind of car I wanted to drive daily. By the same token, Bob's body conversion made his choices for a fuel injection system somewhat limited.

Dave

Hey Archie great job on this thread, I'm dying to hear the outcome of these two. Bob I want to ask you more about the CA smog issue. I live in SD and want to do a V8 conversion, I'm working my way into some mechanics about the smog, but I want to know more about these big engine conversions. So for Ben and Bob both of you have well over 400 hp cars youre putting together how do you guys get these things like the ZZ430 through. Is it only about getting the right smog shop to "help you out".
Aside from that, let these V8 engines roll, race, and rumble. My family lives in the Sac/Davis area so maybe someday I can come up to see these beautiful machines in the future.

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Help, Someone has lit a Fiero in my a#@!

quote Originally posted by OutlawFiero: Bob I want to ask you more about the CA smog issue. I live in SD and want to do a V8 conversion, I'm working my way into some mechanics about the smog, but I want to know more about these big engine conversions. So for Ben and Bob both of you have well over 400 hp cars youre putting together how do you guys get these things like the ZZ430 through. Is it only about getting the right smog shop to "help you out". Aside from that, let these V8 engines roll, race, and rumble. My family lives in the Sac/Davis area so maybe someday I can come up to see these beautiful machines in the future.

OutlawFiero:

Getting a car like this through Ca. Smog, is almost impossible. I cheated, I have Property in another state and when my license expires it will be licensed there. A no smog state. Not to say that a V8 car can't be licensed here. They can but you have to start with an engine that has been installed in a GM car. If you start with a GM crate motor, ZZ4 or other motor that has never been installed into one of there Product lines You will loose any battle you put up. Your First battle is won if you start with a LM1 or LT1 or other engine that they can track and that has smog specks. Then all you have to do is install it with all the smog requirements (that the year of the car it came out of) have. If the car has one muffler that's all you can use, and it goes on. If the car has one cat and you want to use two, you can't. You have to build the exhaust to run into one and then split off for duel exhaust if so desired. IT CAN BE DONE, but it isn't easy following most of there stupid rules. You Just need to get a copy of what is needed for the (engine-year, car) that your building and go from there.
Good Luck

Bob...

very nice! is the ZZ4 a purpose built swap engine, from GM? as missguided as that company often is, i find it amazing that they would build an engine, and not a car for it to go in.

just curious.

------------------
hoop
Red
'86 GT
5 speed
Borla Exhaust
Eibach's/Poly/Kyb's

Not to get too far off-topic here, but V8 Fieros can definitely be smogged in CA, and specifically San Diego... check out Archie's web site and look up Harry Brattin's car.

quote Originally posted by bHooper: very nice! is the ZZ4 a purpose built swap engine, from GM? as missguided as that company often is, i find it amazing that they would build an engine, and not a car for it to go in. just curious.

bHooper,
Yes a ZZ4 is a crate motor, manufactured with no car to put it in. See if you can find any year car that that engine was built and installed in, and you won't. It is considered a hotrod engine and is not for use in Ca, unless you put it in a 1974 or earlier year car, (not smogable)then you can use them. But you can't use one in a 91 Chev pick up because that engine was never offered in that vehicle. Hope that clear it up.
Bob...

---------------------------------------------

quote Originally posted by exspook: Not to get too far off-topic here, but V8 Fieros can definitely be smogged in CA, and specifically San Diego... check out Archie's web site and look up Harry Brattin's car.

exspook,
If you read my earlier post all the way through, I did say you could say V8 Fiero could be smoged in Ca. But it wasn't easy. I have spoken with Harry Brattin a number of times and I know the hoops he had to jump through for the smog people, to get his car passed. He was one of the first people I called before I started my project. I was just trying to make the point, it isn't easy

Bob...

quote Originally posted by bHooper: very nice! is the ZZ4 a purpose built swap engine, from GM? as missguided as that company often is, i find it amazing that they would build an engine, and not a car for it to go in. just curious.

Yeah, GM sells a lot of Hot Rod style Crate engines. Check out http://www.spoperformanceparts.com for a listing. 350 Deluxe (330HP), ZZ4, Fast Burn 385, ZZ430 - all crate engines designed for Hot Rodders. Only the ZZ430 isn't made anymore. Crazyd built his own.

Please Archie, let me intrude just momentarily
in your thread since the the subject of the Ca
smog ref process has been introduced.

Here are some quotes from an email I sent to
K & N last week.

I asked:
Are your air filters still smog legal in California, given that they are replacing a stock filter
that has no emissions sensors? I ask because the tech at a CA test only smog station wanted
to fail my vehicle because it had a K & N filter. This is a vehicle in which an engine swap
using your filter had been approved by the CARB ref's about two years ago. I protested and
the station manager called the local office of the Bureau of Automotive Repair. The person
there told the manager he could pass the vehicle, which he did.

What is interesting is that the tech doing the test had gotten the idea somewhere, perhaps at
a CARB class or seminar, that he really could retroactively fail my car. I've just completed
another engine swap using one of your filters that I have to take in for the CARB test. Will
they pass the filter?

The tech replied:
If this is a filter that goes into the stock filter housing then they can
not fail you for that. Doing engine swaps opens up all kind of potential
problems. The air filter may be the correct filter for that box, but if the
box is the correct on for the new engine then their is a potential problem.
One thing to keep in mind. If they fail you for using a K&N filter then they
need to fail you if you use a Fram or Wix or any other aftermarket filter
that fits into the stock air box.

My clarification:
I'm referring to the K & N "open" style filter like part # RF- 1035.
Legal or illegal in California?

Up to this point K & N has not replied. In
California, it just gets crazier.

Also, just want to say love what you guys are
doing, this is certainly one the ultimate swaps.

Thanks Archie

Orville

I originally posted these thoughts over in a different thread which is now going down in flames and headed for the trashcan, so I'd like to re-post them here and bring this thread back on topic--and, perhaps, back on the move too!

I'd like to put a little of my car into context for you guys. I didn't build it to say I'm the fastest of anything. Originally when I bought the car four years ago, a black '88 GT automatic, I bought it as a driver so I could keep the miles off my '98 Corvette. But since I'm a speed freak and well-financed, even my daily driver had to have balls--and I love the LS1 in my C5. So it was a natural to consider the LS1 for the Fiero. All of it was me hypothesizing things in my head, worrying about weight and torque peaks and other things that all became meaningless when I started driving variants of V8 Fieros. I drove the LM1 Finale, the LT1 Chop Top (also known as Great Blue), and several others, and I realized--in a way that only someone who has those experiences firsthand can--that weight considerations in a V8 Fiero really don't amount to much more than abstract theorizing. When the rubber actually hits the road, a few extra pounds in the middle of the car are the least of your concerns. I wish I could share this experience with more people, but that type of mind-meld is still science-fiction, and unfortunately I'm not letting anyone else drive my car.

So as the LS1 install got more and more complicated, and I was drooling over the awesome ZZ430 on spoperformanceparts.com, three years later I decided that what I really wanted was more power, not less weight taken to extremes.

Mechanically the ZZ430 is by no means exotic as someone pointed out. It makes its power with simple natural-aspiration of three hundred fifty cubic inches and some really clever, high-tech head design on a tried-and-true formula now entering its fiftieth year. It is much smaller than a Northstar, even smaller than the 3.4TDC and 3800SC. There's lots of room to work on it, and this is something that even people who have no idea what they're looking at have mentioned to me. Wanna pull a spark plug out to see how the insides are running? Quick & easy. Wanna pull off the valve covers for a quick lashing? A breeze. It makes a dyno-proven 436 crank horsepower with this fuel-injection system on regular pump gas, all day, every day, and has 150,000+ mile durability with factory GM parts out of the box--and plenty of room to grow. It has a broad, predictable torque curve that is easy to control in any situation and at any point in the rev range, yet is brutally powerful everywhere from idle to redline. There is no surprise power surge from a blower or turbo, and no lag. Just smooth, linear, and tremendous fuel-injected power. Getting it yet?

I am the kind of guy who finds beauty in simplicity and understated elegance, and I have no appreciation of technology for its own sake. Lots of cams and chains and sprockets and valves are cool to some, but are overkill to me. Keep it small, keep it simple, keep it easy to maintain, and keep it from breaking was what I had in mind throughout this car's resurrection. I appreciate the fondness of my car that many have expressed, but I've never said that my singular goal was to be faster than anybody else. It is an empty achievement to me. If this car happens to be faster than most, that's fine. But I'm way past the point in my life when I care if mine is the biggest or fastest or most powerful anything. I can marvel at the engineering of my Corvette and never even care that it's only run 13.1, because it is a brilliant design and an unspeakable joy to drive on the street or the racetrack. If any of you can take a look at the car I've created with admiration and wish it were yours, then my goal has been achieved.

Cheers,
Crazy Dave

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- Electron Blue '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 1): Before After ZZ430 Ram-Port FI--Wanna Race? Follow it here on the Forum!
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- '98 6-speed Corvette Coupe, '87 Coupe SOLD!