Man you guys are great!!! I may single out a few individuals in my post, but I really appreciate everyone's two bits!
Ben - if there wasn't two thousand miles of dirt in the way I'd love to talk cars over a dozen rounds of beverages (non-alchy for me please)!!! Thanks for nudging me on since my first threads on building a fast Fiero! Competive, positive, thorough, and knowledgeable - you have the makings of a good racer! Keep it coming, I'm almost there!
Nashco - I've heard of, and had a catalog from Kennedy many years ago. They do make good stuff. The countless hours of research begin - my wife would love you and Ben, hehehe!!!
Gerald - funny you should post your specs. I was sitting on the sofa with my wife tonight drawing and planning and I wrote "1500lbs" as one of my goals! I was wondering if it was actually possible, and you tell me you're a couple hundred pounds from it!!! Imagine that with 750hp!!!!!!! If you can/will/don't mind, how about some details on how you shaved that much weight off the car? Did you remove metal anywhere, do you have a roll cage (if so, how many points), what did you remove/replace, yadda yadda?
OH10fiero - yup, that's the Kid! I went to Chili's tonight, saw the black, NOS'd, '88. Didn't see the owner to talk to him - I was wondering if it was you! We didn't get there until almost eight. The yellow T-bucket beside it was leaving, and a Chevy II was pulling in, when I walked up. Now you're going to tell me you were right there huh?!
opm2000 - I always liked the Countach and Diablo kits. Post it for us when you finish. The trunk in my car is most likely going to be completely removed, in the interest of "dieting", so that wouldn't be a concern. I have no problem with cutting things up!
Here's where I'm at right now: Ben, you probably remember my first two threads where I showed the sliced and diced Fiero. Well, I am not using that one - yet. If I do this, I am going to start with a stock car. It arrived in my driveway yesterday afternoon, on a hook. I traded a disassembled motor for it. Non-running, was being parted out, but has good metal under the plastic - plus I can borrow any parts I need from the other car.
My biggest decision right now is whether to see how far I can go with the stock wheelbase or to stretch it. Stock WB would help me to develop parts to sell to other Fiero speed junkies, as I know most owners wouldn't be into the stretch thing. Working off Ben's thoughts...
quote
The challenge of launching a *really* built mid-engine drag racer with slicks, getting it juuuust right, to achive 100% weight transfer, really appeals to me. Getting the wheels to lift, just barely, stand the whole car on the rear wheels, withought over-doing it, with NO training wheels) Because of the low-centre of gravity, and inherent light-weight and the 'stick' of the tyres (static weight to stick, that's a myth btw, static weight is bad, it's all about dynamic transfer), this is actually a VERY hard launch, harder than a front-engine rwd car by far. Best! Ben.
...much easier than a front driver though (and they do reasonably well), don't you think? It seems that some dedicated traction aids would be a good thing for the Fiero anyway. Something that doesn't affect handling, or can be easily installed and removed for the track. One of the reasons I like this is the thought of a car that is still fun to drive home through the twisties - after a low nine/high eight second trip down the 1320! Dedicated F/R drag cars SUCK on the street, if you have ANY appreciation for curvaceous asphalt! I still can't shake the thought of Lingenfelter's C5-TT running 9.24's on a stock suspension! A car that could embarrass my buddy's Pro Street, 434ci, Vega, and possess world-class handling!!!!!
As opposed to the stock wheelbase, stretching gives more stability, and a more exotic flavor, but I'd have a much smaller market for parts - since they would be based on stretch kits, and probably suspension parts that wouldn't work with the stock WB cars.
Sorry my posts are sooooo long guys but I'm full to the brim, and everyone else is sleep now - hehehe!
Another encouraging fact - Cobras (and the replicas) have 90" wheelbases, and are capable of absolutely stunning performance - including (according to a guy on R&T's forum) 191mph! That means that with the right stuff our 93.4 inches could work!
Perkidelic, would love to get together one of these days, hopefully we will once our cars are done! Wish we lived closer too! You're on, I'll buy whenever that day arrives ) non-alch for me too, though I do love good wine.
MORE thoughts for ya! ) :
Stock wheelbase should still launch like a mother, though longer will definately be better... A Diablo kit is 11", an F355 is only 3".... If you kept the rest of the car stock, you shouldn't end up really changing anything suspension/cradle wise... (the streatch kits go on in the middle of the chassis, just aft of the seats.)
Oh, back to a thought I've had before. a 3" streatch could be glassed up and integrated to keep the 'stock' fiero look, just a little more exotic!
Externally ajustable shocks in the rear struts (eg red Koni with the dual-ajustables mods, etc) should allow you to turn the rears bound way down for a hard/long launch, and it's 7turns and fine-tuneing for each road course to embarase the Porsches
Yeah, if a FWD car can launch hard, we sure as heck can! I can't find it now, but I had a video of a DeTomaso Pantera launching *hard* and running a 10.3 IIRC... I, uh, think it may have been a stock one. (they would hit 200mph, he did in the same video later on.)
Many v8 Fieros pull sub-1.8/1.7sec 60' times in lightly-modified form (I'm talking like a tire change and poly.) even on the early suspension. 88 suspension is FAR supior, hope your car is an 88! (if not, you CAN swap the rear 88 cradle in, so don't panic.) Heck, Bandit's 2.8 v6 car pulls 1.8sec 60's.... all this on very much street tyres, some of them not even very good.
I really like the idea of a lightweight Fiero with Roadrace Pirelli slicks that also runs low 9s, as kind of 'icing on the cake', like the car wasn't even meant to drag, but does really fricking well almost 'incidentally' (in the same way an F1 car will run a 7-8sec pass, and it's hardly meant to )
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by perkidelic: Man you guys are great!!! I may single out a few individuals in my post, but I really appreciate everyone's two bits!
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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03:36 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
...(in the same way an F1 car will run a 7-8sec pass, and it's hardly meant to...[/B]
I smell boiling blood - hey it's mine!!! You really know how to keep a guy from sleeping well huh - hehehe! It's 4am here - is it possible for my eyes to be heavy and wide at the same time?!?!
Originally posted by California Kid: Reason: No aftermarket super duty transmissions that have been proven, no super duty CV Joints available off shelf that are direct replacements (even if you can fabricate better parts to work, trans is still an issue). Limited available final drive ratio of transmission, not very well suited for 1/4 mile.
GM Super Duty 27mm drive axles with CV joints. Axle Assy, SD, RH 7845336 Axle Assy, SD, LH 7845337 Inside axle seal kit 7845027 Outside Seal kit 7847389
Super Duty 4-spd trans case 10042330
Webster Gears makes Super Duty Gear sets for the Muncie 4-speed trans with Quick change final drive. (415-388-1494) Final drives from 3:26 thru 4:26 will fit stock case. 4:40 thru 4:84 will require case modifications. 1st gear ratios: 2.69 2.47 2.28 2.11 2nd gear ratios: form .97 thru 1.95 3rd gear ratios: .95 thru 1.57 4th gear ratios: .97 thru 1.19
It's just a metter of how much do you want to spend???
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner.
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01:31 PM
OH10fiero Member
Posts: 1540 From: struther OH Registered: Jun 2002
OH10fiero - yup, that's the Kid! I went to Chili's tonight, saw the black, NOS'd, '88. Didn't see the owner to talk to him - I was wondering if it was you! We didn't get there until almost eight. The yellow T-bucket beside it was leaving, and a Chevy II was pulling in, when I walked up. Now you're going to tell me you were right there huh?!
I don't remember a T-bucket there but then again I was trying to find the owner of the black 88 because I thought it might be you. I had a white 86 GT with the sail pannels removed over in the main mall parking lot, trust me once you see my car with them missing it's kind of hard to miss. The car sprang a oil leak on the front seal, and I have replaced it three times, and it still leaks, so I decided to fix the problem permantly. Boardman machine shop, off of Maple has my 3.4 block right now, I am hopeing to have that done this winter so I do not have to worry about that dam oil leak. Hey if your gonna solve a problem might as well do it right, up grade. I can tell you I won't be there next Sat., I am attending a wedding that day, and the whole family will be at my house that weekend, so maybe I will catch you there the week after.
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02:19 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by LS1swap: If you are willing to stretch the frame. Then I think the Fiero would make a great drag car. The trans is what holds a typical Fiero back. Good luck
I am going to research the info OrieF posted, and compare that to the VW tranny - as far as cost, performance, and reliability.
Are all 4-speeds Muncies? If not, how do I know if mine is. OrieF said the parts he listed were for a Muncie case.
Going to start stripping the car tomorrow, and preparing to build. I think the only thing that would prevent me from building it now is coming across some facts that say I'd be wasting my time & money, and the cards have been falling in the other direction, so far.
If I succeed, a nine (possibly eight!?!) second Fiero should get us a little more respect! I bet I still won't have the price of a new Z06 in it, and I'd annihilate it - be the road straight or twisty! I am impressed with Lingenfelter's creation but that performance costs an horrendous 170K!!! I have a friend building a C5 (well over 30K), and he admitted that he is spending two to three times as much to get the same results - because it's a 'vette. Another is building a 30-35K Pro Street Vega (low 9-sec.) and he goes around corners like a cement truck with 10 yards of concrete on tap!!
Originally posted by Nashco: [B]To see Gerald's car, go to www.8shark.com
I will be removing metal in completely different places (like not the roof - hehehe) but may be able to achieve the same results with what I have in mind. I plan to eliminate metal on each end of the cabin and use a different type of cage. Pretty radical project though Gerald! I like people who cut stuff up!
Originally posted by Oreif: It's just a metter of how much do you want to spend??? [/B]
You got it right there! I never said it couldn't be done, to me it's just not a good choice unless you have a lot of money to burn. The parts you listed are better than stock, but they were developed for road course racing, not quarter mile (which generates more impact loading on the drive train). Those parts are also very expensive, and I doubt that those HD CV Joints will hold up to very many 500-600 hp 1/4 mile passes to pull 10 second quarters.
Nothing against dreamers or anyone who has the finaces to make it happen, but lets face it, you don't see many people posting nice low quarter numbers below 12 sec. on this Forum. If you just want to go fast, I've seen many Mustangs that run under 12 sec. quarters and don't break your bank account (but they only run fast in a straight line). If you want to do that in a Fiero, have the check book and charge card ready!!!
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04:24 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
The CV joints on the SD axles are about the strongest you can get, But you need to remember that CV joints are not really designed for 1/4 mile blasts with high horsepower engines. Very few GM transaxles can't deal with much abuse when mated to an engine over 600hp. You would need a custom built racing transaxle to do it correctly.
Like California Kid says, The Fiero is more of a road course car not a drag racer.
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06:34 PM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
If CV joints are an issue, you can adapt those from a 930 porsche (turbo 911). They are MASSIVE units, with a good aftermarket support. You can get custom made everything specifically for your need, for not really all that much money. The magazine Hot VWs has several suppliers in it that can make you custom axles and hubs with the 930 CV joints. The 930 CV joints are what the Porsche racers and the VW offroad racers use, without problems. Ok, this is for about 500 horse usually, but for LONG time periods. An example is the Baja 1000...1000 miles of harsh abuse in the mexican desert, you can't tell me you don't see much impact loading there (think what the drivetrain sees going from being in the air to back on the ground at full throttle ).
So, it sounds like you really want to go transverse, huh? Well, if you change your mind, I highly recommend you check out the Porsche transmissions, they're hard to beat. For the transverse world, it seems the VW tranny you're looking at is the way to go, so far.
Bryce 88 GT
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10:21 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Bryce, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see someone come up with affordable axle assemblies that could take 600 hp and launch on drag strip with big slicks. But I don't think your going to find the price very reasonable. Mark Williams Enterprises just offered parts for the Honda's (as they are having early failures), the sell the HD Axle CV assemblies with a brake upgrade for $5,400.
The Porsche parts would be nice to have, but I haven't heard anyone claim they will fit and if your talking custom fabrication then I'm sure a couple grand isn't out of the question. As said before, to each his own, I'm content not to torture my car at the drag strip, or pull a lot of dry hole shots on the street.
I know my car is pushing close to the borderline from experience. I haven't blown an CV's lately, but the next trans going into my car will have ultrasonically treated gears/shafts (improved strength, space age style). I didn't really care for all the snapping and crunching going on recently when 2nd gear decided it was time to shed all it's teeth. It felt like the whole back of the car was being destroyed. That trans did give 130,000 good miles though, problem is that you can't find many low mileage 5spd Getrag's around (I got one though ).
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10:55 PM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Of course it's not going to be *cheap* Tom; we're talking 10 seconds or less...not even muckstangs and firechickens can do that cheap!
From what I've seen for prices on the porsche stuff, I was thinking about 2 grand for the entire setup, yes. But, 2 grand isn't all that much to pay for the entire cv/axle setup custom made that will allow you to beat the piss out of it without worries! I guess I assume when building a car like this, 20 grand for the whole car is not even close to out of the question. If you've got 3 in suspension, 5 in tranny, 2 in CVs/axles, 8 in the motor and control accessories, 2 into brakes, you've got a great performer for 20 grand. Now, you still have lots like guages, seats, paint/bodywork, lexan windows, tires, wheels...that kind of stuff can go on forever, but figure another 5 grand will do you damn well. I'd build a 25 grand car before I'd buy one for 35...too much fun! Also, as he's said, he'll be building so cheap compared to what it costs to buy this kind of performance...is a few grand here and there THAT big of a deal?
Like you said Tom, it's hard to get this type of car to go fast in the quarter and handle well, it's going to cost a lot of money. I'm almost positive he hasn't gotten in this deep without full knowledge that it can empty the pocketbook in a hurry. Doing his own work will save a lot of money, of course. If he wants to do it, then it will cost money, and he's willing to accept that.
Ahhh...take what you will from it; I'm not arguing a point or trying to be a jerk, hope it's not taken that way. I'm just saying of course it's going to be expensive, you can't build cars like this for cheap or everybody would have one. (ie. a solid axle takes much more abuse, but won't handle for snot, so a more costly independent setup must be used). Similarly, if he was building an F1 car, making a carbon fiber tub is part of the deal...if you don't do it, your results will be less than hoped for.
Imagine for a minute what it would take to make your car THREE seconds faster in the quarter, be streetable, and still handle at least as good, if not better. Do you see any cheap way to do it Tom? Can you think of a car that could do it that you can purchase and/or build for less than...say, 35 grand? Basically going custom tube chassis is about the only way, I think, and to do that affordably requires A TON of personal time and research.
Bryce 88 GT *typo*
[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 09-22-2002).]
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11:29 PM
Sep 23rd, 2002
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by Nashco: [B]Do you see any cheap way to do it Tom?
Bryce 88 GT
Nope!!! I don't have a problem with anything you are saying, just adding my comments. Personally, If I were to build another Fiero, I'd investigate a 6 in. stretch behind the back window, mount the V8 Beast fore/aft with a ZF Trans (or similar) and Corvette style half shafts.
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12:03 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by Nashco: Of course it's not going to be *cheap* Tom; we're talking 10 seconds or less...not even muckstangs and firechickens can do that cheap!...
I guess I assume when building a car like this, 20 grand for the whole car is not even close to out of the question...
I'm almost positive he hasn't gotten in this deep without full knowledge that it can empty the pocketbook in a hurry...If he wants to do it, then it will cost money, and he's willing to accept that.
I'm just saying of course it's going to be expensive, you can't build cars like this for cheap or everybody would have one.
Basically going custom tube chassis is about the only way, I think, and to do that affordably requires A TON of personal time and research.
Thanks Bryce, I couldn't have said it any better myself. In one of my last posts I stated that a friend is building a Pro Street Vega. He has 20K in it now, and we are cutting the car into pieces next month to get a full tubular chassis. By the time the car is "done" he will have 30 - 35 THOUSAND in it to run in the mid to low nines! And, as I stated previously, he can't do corners! The other friend is building a C5 and will probably have well over 40K soon, to run probably in the mid to high tens (he can do corners though!)
The moral of this story is : performance costs! You decide the level of performance you want/can afford and figure out a way to get it. If I want to run low nines/high eights, and do corners well - it's gonna cost me no matter what I start with.
Another point is that this project is for business. It is going to be a marketing tool for my company. What I haven't mentioned is that the whole car is going to be reskinned with a new body - all hand built. Maximum performance helps make a crazy concept vehicle more exciting, and an owner like me more satisfied. It is NOT going to be a kit car - it'll be a one of a kind concept car. Many of the parts and processes I develop along the way will work on virtually any Fiero though.
Another thing that some of the guys here don't seem to be aware of is the parts are all out there - thanks to sport compact racing. They are running very very fast and quick with transverse trannies and CV joints. They are putting stress on their cars that I probably never will, because I won't have training wheels. That means I'll never have the hard shock that comes when the slicks bite and the training wheels touch down. As Ben pointed out previously, this car would be about a carefully balanced launch - not a wind it up and let the clutch fly deal. Plus, if you have much power you can always run 'em down on the big end!
What made me seriously consider a Fiero? Mid-engine driving dynamics, and a behind the wheel experience that is usually reserved for really expensive exotic machinery. Combine that with blazing performance and exotic skin and...
[/QUOTE] Nope!!! I don't have a problem with anything you are saying, just adding my comments. Personally, If I were to build another Fiero, I'd investigate a 6 in. stretch behind the back window, mount the V8 Beast fore/aft with a ZF Trans (or similar) and Corvette style half shafts.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think you just hit the nail on the head with the ZF tranny, they used them in the GT40 Fords, and we all know the history on that car. But I know a guy in Fl. who used to be a 40's, or was it 50's saltflats racer, and he had a 67 Pantera, which had the same set up as the GT40 but without the detuned 427 that they used. And when I talked to him a few years ago he said that the only reason Ford went with a detuned 427 was reliability issues, they were afraid the the torque of the 427 would cause the engine to basicly tear itself apart over the 24 hr. period of the race. But the point is that the ZF can handle the power of a 427, and with a stating point like that you should have a solid foundation for your car.
sorry must have accidently eraced you name from the quote Cal. Kid
[This message has been edited by OH10fiero (edited 09-23-2002).]
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12:48 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
That's likely where I'm headed if I find I chronically blow Getrags/build another car...
Still haven't decided if I want to build *huge* parts for the transverse getrag (drop big $ on axles, brake adapters, etc, all using the small stock Fiero spindles, or fab up spindles from scratch?
Fronts are getting fabed, no way around it (as I can use those down the road if I do longitudinal)
Rears are kind of up in the air though. (heh, bad pun.) Not sure if I just want to try the stock parts, and see what brakes? or drop a buncha $ on the porsche axles/custom spindles, only to go longi and need new axles anyway?
Nascho, can you forward me tips on a place that would make a spinled shaft that would go into the Getrag, and have a 930(or 993) CV mating surface? (and do custom-legenth axles?) Who do the crazy-high-HP custom guys use?
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by California Kid: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nashco: [B]Do you see any cheap way to do it Tom?
Bryce 88 GT
Nope!!! I don't have a problem with anything you are saying, just adding my comments. Personally, If I were to build another Fiero, I'd investigate a 6 in. stretch behind the back window, mount the V8 Beast fore/aft with a ZF Trans (or similar) and Corvette style half shafts.
[/QUOTE]
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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01:26 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Hey man, I'm building a road-course/street hybrid, stock 88 geometry, but fabricated control arms, and rod-end 'bushings', Porsche 993 "Big Red" brakes, 18x10" wheels off a 996, coilover konis, etc. Getting sparco seats and 4-pt harness, Tilton dual-MC brake pedals (floor-pivoit, ala McLaren F1 and Ferrari Enzo...)
Got a ~460hp cammed Northstar motor going in, dual-plate 7.25" Quartermaster clutch (going to use the stock Getrag untill I demolish it )
I want to get the car down to about 2500lbs, but keep A/C, a radio, etc. Kind of the ultimate just-barely-street-legal track car.
Car isn't being built with drag in mind at all, but it'll be tough enough to take a launch, and I may enjoy the occational 11sec scream ;D
Been building it for a while now, I'm in no hurry... I want to get this car 'right'
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 09-23-2002).]
California Kid, I take back what I said in another post about not knowing of a Fiero that could beat my 02 Vette in the quarter... yours obviously can. Congrats!
------------------
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03:23 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by godalex: California Kid, I take back what I said in another post about not knowing of a Fiero that could beat my 02 Vette in the quarter... yours obviously can. Congrats!
No problem, most people don't believe it, you should see the faces of the Viper owners when they get spanked!!!
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06:12 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by artherd: Hey man, I'm building a road-course/street hybrid...Been building it for a while now, I'm in no hurry... I want to get this car 'right'...
I love it! Now I really understand what you meant when you said...
quote
Perkidelic, would love to get together one of these days, hopefully we will once our cars are done!
...I didn't know you were building such an awesome street/race car! One day, somehow, we gotta be able to go cruisin' together with these two cars!!!
BTW - for everyone who posts here - my ultimate goal is an eight second street car. I don't intend to run those numbers straight out of the box though. Right now, my focus is on developing the right foundation to accomplish my desired end; then I'll work my way from say mid tens towards it. That way I can find the weak links in the chain as I get faster and correct them, and develop parts along the way for all levels of performance.
Something else I have been thinking about: What about an adapter that would allow your motor of choice to be mounted directly to a C5 transaxle? Eliminates the torque tube, and creates a Porsche type set up. Strength and reliability have been proven. Your choice of 6spd or auto. If Lingenfelter can put 866lb/ft of torque on one, and not grenade it, it's gotta be strong!!! They overengineered that whole car. Just thinkin...
Originally posted by artherd: Nascho, can you forward me tips on a place that would make a spinled shaft that would go into the Getrag, and have a 930(or 993) CV mating surface? (and do custom-legenth axles?) Who do the crazy-high-HP custom guys use?
Best! Ben.
Well...disclaimer: I don't know anybody with the super-duper 930 stuff, I'm just going off what I've read in magazines, web pages, etc. With that in mind, here are the people that I know make custom stuff. If you pick up a copy of Hot VWs, you'll see them in there. Another good (maybe even better) magazine for extreme-duty independent suspension stuff is Sand Sports Magazine (I've never seen this on the shelf of any bookstore, but in CA it may be a different story. I have to order it with the subscription card in the Hot VWs).
Also, I have NO IDEA what they can/can't do for the Getrag trans axle pattern, but like many machining operations...they've got the tools, if you give them something to work with they will probably make it for you. You may have to supply an axle, or drawings...who knows? I'm sure you know what I mean though. I suppose you can call them and find out, the worst they can say is no! If they can't do it, they might tell you who can, also.
Transform - Long Beach, CA (800)508-7267 or (562)435-2966 Rancho Performance Transaxles - Anaheim, CA (714)680-6737 KRC Transmissions - Riverside, CA (909)688-1904 VW Transaxles - http://www.bugtrans.com/ Weddle Engineering - Goleta, CA (805)696-9665 Transmissions West - Torrance, CA (800)435-0416 or (310)782-2413
Oh, and I'm sure if you call them and tell them you're building a Fiero with blablabla...they may not be of much help. BUT if you tell them you need a custom stub axle made, they may be a little more receptive to the idea. Also, a thought I have tried going through in my head is the possibility of using a standard tri-pot axle and machining it to accept a flange to be used for a bolt-on CV. I don't really need to for my application (the places already make Porsche stuff, no need to go full custom), so dropped it. You may want to look into it. Of course, you'd rather have one piece stuff made out of a stronger material, if it's obtainable.
Let me know if you find anything out Ben; I've got these places all handy because I will be making some calls myself in about 9 months, when I get to that stage of my project. I've still got to get the trans bolted in, and the new torsion arms in, so I can figure out how long my axles need to be.
Bryce 88 GT
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02:02 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
...and machining it to accept a flange to be used for a bolt-on CV. I don't really need to for my application (the places already make Porsche stuff, no need to go full custom), so dropped it. You may want to look into it. Of course, you'd rather have one piece stuff made out of a stronger material, if it's obtainable.
I wouldn't be afraid of machined and/or welded parts - as long as the person/company doing it is good. Some of the most stressed parts on racing vehicles are welded - e.g. f/r driveshafts
Originally posted by perkidelic: Couple questions:
1)What is a tri-pot axle?
2)How about some details on your project Bryce?
One statement:
I wouldn't be afraid of machined and/or welded parts - as long as the person/company doing it is good. Some of the most stressed parts on racing vehicles are welded - e.g. f/r driveshafts
A tri-pot CV is the kind that the Fiero uses stock. On most of them you'll see that there are three sections that stick out between the axle and the axle stubs. Inside, depending on the design, the axle end (or the part that attaches to the end of the axle) has three semi-spherical indents that allow a steel ball (single ball bearing) to rotate in. The ball bearing goes in the tri-pot, which has a slotted indent in it that correlates to the ball bearing on the axle. In doing so, this allows the stub axle to push on the ball bearings, and the ball bearings push on the axle. This would be pointless for a solid rear end, but on the independent setup it allows the axle to be at an angle to the transmission and still transmit force constantly. It's kind of hard to visualize, so here's some links I found...should have done this in the first place:
I can't find any of the Fiero style, but basically they're about the same size, but with a few larger balls instead of several smaller ones, I believe. From what I gather, the more balls you use to transfer the load the better, as it spreads the force over several points, instead of only a few. Basically, you know you're putting the same amount of power in one side no matter what, so the more points you can spread that force over the better. Of course there is a limit to this, but you get the point.
Holy crap! I found a page that has info about putting a Porsche 915 (in 73-89ish? 911s) in a Fiero Diablo kit car, using Fiero axles adapted to work with the Porsche CV joints. The link is dead, but google has it cached here. Hope the link works!
Oh, I also remembered that there are also even BIGGER porsche CV joints, referred to as 934 joints. These are for the ultimate racer...very expensive, but supposedly the best CVs you can get. Also thought I'd add that the racers don't just use off the shelf parts...they usually get them race prepped with some clearancing and stress relief. The clearancing is a big deal, as it gives them more travel; off roading requires lots of travel, which is hard on CVs because they have to absorb a lot more force at extreme angles than normally. I doubt any of our Fieros will be giving them more than a few degrees of travel, though.
So, that's all I've got to say about *that*...for the time being...phew.
My project is about 30 percent done. I'm putting a 4.3 chevy V6 into my 69 VW (convertible baja bug). I've got a 901 (early 911) transmission I'll be using, but may change that later depending on how successful it is. The 901s are a dime a dozen (literally, you can buy them on ebay about two or three times a week for 150 bucks or so), so worst case I'll just have to get a few spares! I'm putting in longer/wider torsion arms to get more travel and a wider stance, as well as more tire clearance. I've got a KEP flywheel and engine adapter that's made for the VW tranny, which is very close to the 901 transmission. The adapter will also work with a SBC, but that's overkill for the car/tranny I think. I'm just leaving the engine hanging out the back, as the body kit doesn't interfere with it, and it put almost all of the weight on the rear (big deal in the dunes). I got a couple of motors for free (installed new ones, got the cores...one has a bad head, one has a rod knock), and got the engine adapter brand new for about 25% what it costs. I've got all the accessories for a throttle body setup to get the car on the road (free wiring harness, ecm, throttle body, etc.), which will also do pretty good in the dunes until I get all the bugs worked out of the car. The injection is a big deal for offroading, as off-camber stuff is hard for carbs, and the vortech setup is picky about fuel pressure...not something I want to worry about when I'm trying to kill the car miles from civilization!
The first part of the job was to put all new floors in the car, as it had the typical old volkswagen floors. The pan is solid now, and I'm putting the trans and torsion arms in next. Once I get the axles and CV joints figured out, the rest will be pretty easy. I'm making a fuel tank to go where the back seat was, along with a storage compartment in the back. I have to fab up some radiator mounts and coolant hoses, and wire in the engine in. The biggest problem left, after getting the transmission in, is the shifting mechanism. I think I'm going to make a hydraulic setup, that way it will be easy to swap over to the 915/930 if I go that way in the future. I have also considered that with the design I've got, I could easily hook up some actuators and a logic processor to it to have electronic shift control. I'm just getting started on the shifter drawings, so it will be a few months till I get it done.
Whew, I'm out of breathe, and I have to go study for finals. This is a great thread, fun to talk about projects gone by and those soon to be! Building cars is a blast...I can't decide if I want to engineer for a major company, or build custom rides!
Bryce 88 GT
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09:28 PM
PFF
System Bot
Leper No longer registered
Report this Post09-23-2002 09:40 PM
Leper
posts Member since
quote
Originally posted by perkidelic: Something else I have been thinking about: What about an adapter that would allow your motor of choice to be mounted directly to a C5 transaxle? Eliminates the torque tube, and creates a Porsche type set up. Strength and reliability have been proven. Your choice of 6spd or auto. If Lingenfelter can put 866lb/ft of torque on one, and not grenade it, it's gotta be strong!!! They overengineered that whole car. Just thinkin...
I think the C5's tranny is way too long between diff axel take-off and input shaft...
It's going down the right road though. The various Porsche and ZF transaxles designed for mid-engine have the diff very near the input, and the gears hanging out the butt...
know what I mean?
Best! Ben
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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10:02 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by artherd: I think the C5's tranny is way too long between diff axel take-off and input shaft...
It's going down the right road though. The various Porsche and ZF transaxles designed for mid-engine have the diff very near the input, and the gears hanging out the butt...
know what I mean?
Yup, that would make for a pretty long Fiero huh?!?. Looks like the Porsche is absolutely the way to go for longitudinal mounting. Now, to pick the absolute best in a tranverse tranny and compare to figure out which is the best for the plan.
For your project - I was checking out Held's products and they said you need at least seven inches to run the Porsche transaxle; and at seven you have to do some work on the firewall. With eight or longer it fits without messing with the firewall. Thought about you because you mentioned using the Porsche tranny with a six-inch stretch.
Thanks for the pic & link Leper - Checked out the Corv8 - water pump snout is in their armpits!!!
Bryce - sounds like a pretty radical Bug! With that much weight on the rears, I can see the benefit for traction, but how will you keep the fronts on the sand (to steer it)?! Great reserch info too - thanks. I agree this thread has been/is/will be fun!
Originally posted by perkidelic: Bryce - sounds like a pretty radical Bug! With that much weight on the rears, I can see the benefit for traction, but how will you keep the fronts on the sand (to steer it)?! Great reserch info too - thanks. I agree this thread has been/is/will be fun!
The fronts??? You don't use them much in the sand, because to get enough weight on them to actually turn, you get a TON of drag (sand is hard to drive in) and you lose a lot of rear weight for traction. All of the sand toys use a cutting brake; a hand brake that controls the rear brakes independently of each other. Mine has two handles, one for each side, that you push forward on to close the caliper. So, for doing stuff like sand drags, when you need to go straight because you're racing, you just use the cutting brake to control your direction if you get a little crooked. It's an easy solution, and works great. With these brakes you can also lock one wheel when you're stopped and do 180s when you take off. This is fun with a passenger if you catch them off gaurd, because it scares the crap out of you to instantly be spinning from a stop! By the way, the same concept is what is used on the drag exhibition cars that pull wheelies all the way down the track.
That's another thing I want to do a mechatronic design with in the future; I want to make a single spring loaded joystick that controls ABS solenoids, so rather than moving a couple of levers a few inches, I can use a joystick to modulate the solenoids. That will be much easier to control on full throttle blasts, and REALLY easy to adjust the solenoids to be more or less agressive with some software.
Bryce 88 GT
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12:39 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by California Kid: You have to think outside the box, who says the water pump has to be where it currently located. Let the creative juices flow!!!!
I was just having fun. I actually like the CORV8. I would do what you just said though and move the pump. An electric pump would solve the problem - put it wherever you want.
I would really "let the creative juices flow" when it came time to design the powertrain cover. Have to make sure it wouldn't look like a van's doghouse! Could camouflage the whole "engine compartment" with speakers, lights, video monitors, maybe ten twelves - like the Gen-Xers do it! And have a glass window that reveals the motor & trans. You said let 'em flow - hehehe!
edited to make it "read" like it sounded in my 'noggin ------------------ http://phitown.com
[This message has been edited by perkidelic (edited 09-24-2002).]
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01:46 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
I saw something really cool, in sport compact car of all things, it was a carbonfibre piece, that fully covered the engine compartment, BUT had a hole that let the cam cover just poke through (it was flush with this panel.)
Looked ULTRA clean and cool!
Best! Ben
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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02:50 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Started stripping the car today, but didn't get too far. Been doing more research than anything.
Found something that could be of use to any serious performance-minded Fiero guy. Jeg's has 4 ($123), 8 ($150), 10 ($200), and 12-point ($270) roll cage kits for Fieros! It's an unwelded kit, but they are custom bent for our "cockpit", and pre-notched. It will be a while before I start building, but that is going to be one of the first things I do. That will give me a lighter car (going to remove a lot of oem metal) and a super stiff foundation in one shot. Thinking about starting with a V8 Archie kit and my Muncie 4spd, and work my way up to whatever I need after that. If I like the way the car handles with the tranverse set up, I may stick with it. Might stick a 383-inch Chevy in it to start the process - hopefully by next summer.
Originally posted by artherd: I saw something really cool, in sport compact car of all things, it was a carbonfibre piece, that fully covered the engine compartment, BUT had a hole that let the cam cover just poke through (it was flush with this panel.)
Sounds nice. Was it the latest issue (that is still on the stands)? I am doing something similar in my Camaro (my Fiero's big brother) but plan to let the engine show from the valve covers up. My reason on that car is to have a car I can drive in rain and have ready for a cruise or show quickly. When I have time to detail it completely, I would probably remove one side to show the suspension, etc.
Wish we lived closer too! You're on, I'll buy whenever that day arrives 
) non-alch for me too, though I do love good wine. 
).
