Completely gutted the interior today (except for the steering column, HVAC unit, pedals, and shifter). Took forever to get the driver's seat out - rusted nuts because the driver's door and sunroof were sold, leaving it exposed to the elements. I took my time (for once) so I wouldn't break the studs. Gotta have something to anchor the race buckets to! Next step is to see what condition the Duke is in. If it'll run I can use it to move the car around until it's swap time. Looks tiny sitting beside my Camaro!
Stuck one of my short shifters, with flame knob, in to get rid of the stock tractor-trailer size stick. I'll post a pic of what it looks like in the car as soon as I remember to get some film - gotta get a digital!
What's stronger: 4spd from '84 Duke -OR- 5spd from '85 Duke???
How high do you think the wheelstanding Fiero would have lifted the fronts without bouncin 'em???
Get yourself a 5-speed Getrag from an 87-88 V6, it's the strongest Fiero tranny. (there is some debate, some think the 4-sp is strong too. the 5-sp isuzu that came with the 4-bangers is the weakest.)
88 cradle too, or I bet you'll break the early suspension on the first launch!
I bet that wheelstanding car could have held 'em a foot off the ground for a good 30feet or so withought the bounce.
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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09:38 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by artherd: I bet that wheelstanding car could have held 'em a foot off the ground for a good 30feet or so withought the bounce. [/B]
A foot high for 30ft would be a perfect launch for a street-legal race car. Ever see a Super Street car run? That's about what they do.
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09:56 PM
Sep 25th, 2002
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
My f/r (C5 & ProStreet Vega) friends think that a really fast Fiero would be so light in the front end that I wouldn't be able to steer it. What do you guys think? Have you ever heard any of the quickest guys compalin of this. How 'bout you Ben when you're on the road course - steering wheel ever get kind of light?
Naw, I don't have the front get light, (well, coming over turn 3b 'the crest' at sears, the WHOLE CAR gets pretty light, but as the name indicates, it's the top of a hill, and cars are known for going completely airborne there ) Even in turn 11, a *tight* second-gear 180*, if your entry speed is right, just roll on it at apex, and you'll carry right out every time. Pick a 2" oil stain somewhere on the line, and I can hit it every time.
(YES, that's a 360Modena behind me. Yes, he caught me. I kept him in sight for the entire rest of the 30min session though. Notice how far out his line is? that's not really nessicary to carry speed through 11. there's a surprisingly wide patch of pavement there actually. He must have early-apexed a bit or something. Keep in mind too, that that's not the N* car, just a weak-arse pathetic 2.8. Did amazingly well, I expected maybe not to finish last, and I was actually faster than not only some C5s, but a Viper. Yeah. Viper. I know, I didn't belive it either... )
Ok, back to mid-engine generality! :
It IS a slightly different style than a front-eng car...
Frankly, the actual weights of the cars, front and rear, are close in MR and FR drivetrain cars. On a road course however, you really notice the different innertial moments... How can I explain this? Let's compare two identical 3,000lb cars, with identical wheelbases, and powerplants, and 50/50 weight distribution....
oo..........oOOOO (<-car's front) ^ ^ a "50/50" Front engine, rwd car.
ooOOOO.........oo (<-car's front) ^ ^
a "50/50" Mid-engine, rwd car.
The static weights at the pivoit points of the wheels are the same, but notice how much easier it will be to 'grab' the front of that mid-engine and yank it around on a twisty section of pavement?
Now, it is possible to make the front end so light, that understeer is induced. However, only abrupt over-application of power too early in a turn does this (it'll happen in a slick-equiped C5 too.) The mid-engine driving style is certinly divergant (but it stems from teh same go-fast ideas, your gas-on points just move a bit.) more ragged, and less forgiving than most C5-type F/R cars. But it's faster.
Example, mid-engine cars like to STAND on the brakes in a straight line, enter the corner a tad slower than an otherwise identical F/R would, but start laying on the power (NEVER completely lift btw) right at turn in. At the apex of the turn, you should be at nearly full throttle, and on roll out, pedal down and let the combined car's movement, and your steering inputs (careful here) coax the car out to the turn's exit.
It's important to make this transition from just-on-the-gas a bit in turn-in, to WOT on turn exit, *smoothly* and precisely. Too much gas too fast ('stab') the throttle, and you'll lift the front, or break the rears loose, or both, and spin :P
Bottom line: mid-engine driving is all about ballance. Kind of like flying an airplane that's VERY fast, can turn incredibly hard, but is *unstable* in one axis, and will require active pilot cancelation to correct the issue.
I personally find it THE most challenging, and rewarding, driving expierence out there
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by perkidelic: My f/r (C5 & ProStreet Vega) friends think that a really fast Fiero would be so light in the front end that I wouldn't be able to steer it. What do you guys think? Have you ever heard any of the quickest guys compalin of this. How 'bout you Ben when you're on the road course - steering wheel ever get kind of light?
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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04:23 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by artherd: ...Bottom line: mid-engine driving is all about ballance. Kind of like flying an airplane that's VERY fast, can turn incredibly hard, but is *unstable* in one axis, and will require active pilot cancelation to correct the issue.
I personally find it THE most challenging, and rewarding, driving expierence out there...
Sounds like fun. Thanks for the road racing discourse (seriously). I have some new things to practice when I get mine running! There's a road course about thirty miles from here, and I have never been to it. Would be nice to make my first time one on the track!!! Sounds like the mid-engine/short wheelbase is helping you get around the track faster than the more powerful cars. Did you take any driving courses, or did you pick it up on your own? Kameo Kid and I had talked about it before - I'm thinking about it for next year.
I had hoped to end up with a 50/50 balance when finished. Stock is 43/57 (f/r) correct? If so, I would need to remove a whopping 350lbs (assuming it's a 2500lb car stock - 4cyl/4spd/duke) from the back, from where it is was, to accomplish this!!! Of course it will be different from this because I am removing weight from the entire car, but that shows me how much more weight is currently back there. The front end has been getting higher as I keep removing things (nothing in back yet ). Hood, fenders, and light assemblies, were already missing. I stripped the interior. To further complicate things, I expect to lose about 150lbs on the front axle, by the time I am finished, which means I would have to lose a grand total of 500 on the rear axle. I imagine an LS1 (all aluminum) mounted in a stretched Hern tubular cradle would do the trick though. That would also put me at 1850lbs total. Not quite what I was looking for (1500) but not bad at all.
Still doing a ton of research on building this car. Looking for some person/company with vast experience in drag racing mid-engine cars, to walk me through the ups-n-downs of it. So far, it's like a secret room no one has dared to enter (that's with the people I have talked to).
Hey man, anything under 2,000lbs is going to *scoot* in a big way
Don't be too worried about 50/50 weight bias, actually most mid-engine cars like a tad more out back (don't go over 40/60 though!) Otherwise, when you go back and forth on the gas/brakes, the car's centre of innertia actually moves through the centerpoint of the car, not quite as 'balanced' as a setup with just a little bias on the rear already (that's how it's worked out in my expierence at least.)
PS: you've gotta try road-course raceing, it's the most fun you can have in your car with your clothes on!
PPS: I would like to do a driver's school, but so far I'm just 'self taught' (with a little help from turn 8 <I spun in turn 8 my first day. I blame high tire pressure of course>
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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01:25 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by artherd: Hey man, anything under 2,000lbs is going to *scoot* in a big way
Don't be too worried about 50/50 weight bias, actually most mid-engine cars like a tad more out back (don't go over 40/60 though!) Otherwise, when you go back and forth on the gas/brakes, the car's centre of innertia actually moves through the centerpoint of the car, not quite as 'balanced' as a setup with just a little bias on the rear already (that's how it's worked out in my expierence at least.)
Thanks again Ben, that's good advice. The center of inertia moving through the centerpoint is something I wouldn't have been thinking about. I bet it would have as much effect or more on the dragstrip - could be like balancing a teeter-totter, standing in the middle with a foot on each side. I'm referring to the smooth controlled launch we discussed previously.
I believe I will like the road course too - though probably not as much a the drag strip - it's something about the crazy burst of "everything I've got" that fits my personality!
Both are *loads* of fun, all the same, to me, the strip actually feels SLOW (but it's still a heluva rush, and I really enjoy the challenge in launching a car, kind of reminds me of an F1 standing start
On a faster track, like Willow Springs, there's a HALF-MILE straight you're hammering down for all you're worth, bookin along at 120-160 (depending on car) before you hit the braking zone. and that's the part of the track you can *RELAX* on
Imagine a 30minuite drag race, with turns, that's a road course! :P
Either way, thank god for racetracks!
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by perkidelic: Thanks again Ben, that's good advice. The center of inertia moving through the centerpoint is something I wouldn't have been thinking about. I bet it would have as much effect or more on the dragstrip - could be like balancing a teeter-totter, standing in the middle with a foot on each side. I'm referring to the smooth controlled launch we discussed previously.
I believe I will like the road course too - though probably not as much a the drag strip - it's something about the crazy burst of "everything I've got" that fits my personality!
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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02:52 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
I'm enjoying just reading. don't stop now. Ive got an 88 GT with a N* sitting right next to it in my garrage. Been look'in at various threads on p.f.f. for quite a wile now got a lot of ideas and useful info.here. So keep it up I'm learn'in By the way Ben your post's have been very useful in helping me choose my engine. Thnx. Dominick
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01:02 PM
PFF
System Bot
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Just wanting to keep this floating near the top. I have a few things I'd like to talk about, but I'm tired as hell...just finished finals today, finished packing a few minutes ago, and I have to get up early tomorrow AM to start the drive!
Just to support what Ben said, you don't really want a 50/50 balance; this is ideal for steady state stuff (like a skidpad test), but makes for a twitchy car in dynamic driving. The Fieros seem to do great with a little more weight in the rear and some wider tires to compensate for the fact.
So, perk...what's the "gameplan"? What I mean is, what are your priorities...engine, trans, frame, suspension, etc. Are you picking an engine and trans and designing around it?
Bryce 88 GT
P.S. I'll be out of town for a few days, but I'll check back to this thread when I get back.
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02:24 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Would love to get together one day (once my car's even finished :P) and compare cars!
OH! Not sure if I mentioned it yet, but I was talking of a 6" or so streatch... for a lopngitudnial Northstar. for an SBC, you'll have to go a tiny bit longer. (not sure exactly how much,)
I do really think this would be the way to do it though. Basically, build the car in your sig It's perfect!
We do need to stir up this pot a bit, if you've been waiting to chime in with your opinion, philiosophy, etc, please do so! (I don't care if you think I'm an idoit, I wanna hear what you've got to say!
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by DOM: I'm enjoying just reading. don't stop now. Ive got an 88 GT with a N* sitting right next to it in my garrage. Been look'in at various threads on p.f.f. for quite a wile now got a lot of ideas and useful info.here. So keep it up I'm learn'in By the way Ben your post's have been very useful in helping me choose my engine. Thnx. Dominick
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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02:41 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Ok, this may be a long one, but I'm full to the brim again and everyone is sleep!
As I mentioned in a previous post, I used to race street-legal dragbikes. Well, tonight while the wifey and I were out for dinner, I was working on my car's design & plan (she's used to it now!), and a thought occurred to me. A motorcycle is essentially a mid-engine/rear-drive vehicle. On slightly modded, lowered, sport bikes (with no training wheels) we are able to run mid-nine second passes (or better) @ 140+mph! This is on a vehicle with a 50-something inch wheelbase, and a weight-to-power ratio in the neighborhood of 2 to 2.5:1!!! Translated into the Fiero world, that would be the equivalent of 1200-1400hp in a normal weight V8 Fiero (lowered with no stretch!
What I am getting at is this: With a 93.4" wheelbase, four wheels on the tarmac (at least to begin with!), and a comfortable place to control it from, it should be possible to at least duplicate the results of the motorcycles. The secret to this amazing performance is, (again, as I mentioned in a previous post) in the clutch. Basically we are driving the vehicle off the line with a slow progressive disengagement (release) of clutch. We call it "sliding the clutch". The top Pro cars in professional drag racing use high-dollar clutches that do the "sliding" for them - they're often called slider clutches. The crewchief determines the timing of the disengagement in the setup, before the race. When the driver dumps the clutch it disengages proressively, as setup, according to track conditions, climate, etc. In street-legal racing (no training wheels!) the driver of a manual trans vehicle must do this job by instinct and experience. It is fun and challenging.
I think I can do this in a Fiero, just as I did on the bikes. The key is a "slow motion" type of awareness of what is actually happening in fractions of a second, with lightning quick, smooth, reactions. I think I am going to develop a stock wheelbase car, with a transverse engine/trans combo. I want to explore this format's maximum performance potential. If, in the end, the best I am able to produce is a mid to low nine second ET, I will be satisfied. In the process I will develop many parts and techniques to help Fiero enthusiasts enjoy their machines even more!
Beyond this: In the street-legal dragbike scene, the absolute fastest are called "shootout" bikes. They are radically lowered and stretched versions of the production "crotch rockets". Utilizing nitrous and turbos, they are running in low eights or high sevens (I'll find the exact numbers and post them) at 170+mph!!! 'Bout 300hp on tap (approx 400-500lbs) - no training wheels!!!!!!! After I have taken my 93.4" car to it's limit, or near it, I want to build another - that's right now I'm talking about TWO cars!!! The second will be a completely maxxed out, stretched, longitudinal, concept. This one will get the Porsche tranny, and a 427ci LS6, similar to the one Lingenfelter has in his TT C5 - but minus the turbos - I like the spray! Target weight on this one, dripping wet, is 1500lbs. This one won't actually be what many would call a Fiero, but will be a bonafide racecar (drag & road), using only a Fiero cabin shell. I plan to use the other project car I started for it.
Goal: 1000+hp/somewhere in the sevens 1/4mi/completely street-legal/+1G handling/and of course - no training wheels!!!
Call me a dreamer if you want, it's a compliment! Dreams do come true ya know - hehehe!
First things first though, and that's building this 93.4" car. Wish I could show you guys the body but I gotta finish the designs and apply for a patent first. As soon as that's done I'll post 'em here and on my site. I'm really serious about this and moving full steam ahead! I believe that our constant modifying will cause the Fiero to become a classic like the Model A, Mustang, or Camaro. We just have to create enough positive momentum to nullify the negative image quagmire that has engulfed the little cars. Better get 'em now though, cuz if that happens they'll be pricey and hard to come by. Witness the 55-57 Chevy, 1st gen Camaros 'birds and 'stangs, original steel Ford coupes - you get the picture.
Hey Bryce! You said:
quote
I have also considered that with the design I've got, I could easily hook up some actuators and a logic processor to it to have electronic shift control. I'm just getting started on the shifter drawings, so it will be a few months till I get it done.
How far can you personally go with this idea, if the money is there? We need to talk!
Two more things and I promise I'll stop, for now! I feel like a long-winded preacher who can't pry himself away from the mic!!!
I noticed a silver MR2 Spyder at our local Toy dealership the other day. I pulled in, got out to examine it, and left thinking that my car will be about that size when finished. Imagine the awe of such a sweet-looking little machine that could annihilate Vettes, Vipers, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, even the mighty F1, Pro Street racers, etc.!!! Just the thought bumped me up a couple gears! It's the ultimate street-legal racers dream car! Unassuming, yet brutally powerful. Even my properly set up ultimate NOS motor will be a smooth idling T-rex in a pet lizard's skin!!!
Why drag racing??? Drag racing, in addition to being my preferred exhileration avenue, is the most common method for car enthusiasts to determine who's bad!?! Even here on the forum, there seems to always be a discussion relating to elapsed times, mph, or a drag race result; albeit it's a mid-engine road race style machine!!! Line 'em up!!!
well guy's i'm definatly not in your leage wheh it comes to engineering, or even mechanics, but if I were going to try to build a drag fiero I think I might try a N* with the t480e that comes with it, they are very strong you know,I think the strongest GM transaxel available. there was a guy John Norman I think, supposedly the first to do a N* conv. in a fiero. I think ther were some computer mods to the engine and trans, and nitrous. I read on the net where some one posted a magizine article (Hot Rod) I think? where the car would do 11.1's before nitrous Now Chrfab has aftermarket cams etc. to build these motors pretty radical.I've seen 800 - 1200 h.p. motors with turbo's and supercharger set ups on ther web site. Now one of those set up right with a torque converter up grade and possibly other beefed up mods seems very realistic ME right now I would like a fast standard shifting sports car mid 11's-low 12's all out road handling car but very quick(for a street car) because your right thats what most of the average Joe's gage perfomance and probably the most likelyway to be able to compete with it casually (stop light to stop light also seem to be more drag stips available with test & tune nights.) Though i think I would prefer road racing. Just my opinion Dominick
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03:04 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by DOM: ...Now Chrfab has aftermarket cams etc. to build these motors pretty radical.I've seen 800 - 1200 h.p. motors with turbo's and supercharger set ups on ther web site...
Hey Dom. What is the website for that company? I prefer an LS1 or 6 but would like to check the N* out.
I've got aftermarket cams, and the Holley 950 standalone engine management from him. Haven't put them in yet, but he says they're good for ~460hp @ 8500rpm "stock bottom end good to ten-five" (I'll set my rev cutout to 9grand, thank you very much This is an all-stock motor, with JUST a cam and valve springs...
PS: the N* will support up to about a 5.4litre displacement (bore and a custom crank) so you should be able to ultimately get LS6-level moded power.
With bikes, the low centre of gravity helps you, same as in a Fiero
PS: I've been thinking a lot about an electrohydraulic tranny too (ala Ferrari's F1 system) keys will be in the management of the system, and choosing good quality components. To do what we do, will require razor sharp engine speed, and input-shaft speed senseing, good curve fitting, and very very accurate actuation on the clutch release, and high power on the shift forks. (the forks should be actuated directly themselves, getting rid of the intermediate levers in a normal system.)
I will leave you with this video exemplifying the extent to which a mid-engine car can really whoop ass (pardon the straight-diff noise, it's the loudest gear whine I've heard in ANY car, including can-am.) http://clubb5.stealthx32.com/Assen-bmwSTW.wmv It's a Turbo V8 Esprit, with a *7-speed* sequential bag-box (no syncros, easy. But brutal.)
Best! Ben.
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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11:41 PM
Sep 29th, 2002
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Thanks guys for the link and info, checking the N* out. Nice stuff.
That Espirit is awesome Ben! No cheapy ear plugs in that one or aural sensation will be a thing of the past! Only thing you'd ever hear again are those pesky Fiero-sized prehistoric mosquitos buzzing around your right ear! I only watched a fraction of it (slow-moving connection) but got a kick out of how many rear ends were properly spanked, and left in the dust!!!
'Nother question for ya Ben: How would I go about making sure that my 12pt. cage would past tech at whatever road course I decided to play on? Drag racing is easy because there are basically two major sanctioning bodies and if your car can pass tech (safety not individual classes) with them you can run probably any track in the States.
Here's what she looks like:
The front strut bars will run to the front of the main frame rails, eliminating the upper sheetmetal sections. The rear strut bars will do the same in back, also elminating the sheetmetal & strut towers, with new (probably adjustable) upper suspension strut mounts incorporated on the cage strut bars. Window net, five-point harnesses (SFI-16.1), and one-piece race buckets.
Has anyone thought of having a corvette setup. Motor in front with the trans and rearend mounted in the rear. This will help with the weight problem and if the gas tank is moved to the trunk then there is room for a drive shaft. I think there is ample room for a v8 under the hood of our cars. Any have any thoughts on this? Hey a bonus is if you put a floor over the read end you can get a decent size trunk out of the deal!!
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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03:47 PM
PFF
System Bot
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by red85gt: Has anyone thought of having a corvette setup. Motor in front with the trans and rearend mounted in the rear. This will help with the weight problem and if the gas tank is moved to the trunk then there is room for a drive shaft. I think there is ample room for a v8 under the hood of our cars. Any have any thoughts on this? Hey a bonus is if you put a floor over the read end you can get a decent size trunk out of the deal!!
Yeah, I asked about doing a front-engine/rear-drive setup in a previous thread and the general consensus, in the Fiero community, is that it would no longer be a Fiero. Now that I have spent some time on the Forum I would have to agree. One of the Fiero's strongest features is that it is the first and only m/r regular production American automobile (excluding the rare, ultra limited production pieces such as a Mosler car). Then I read and posted in the thread about first ride in a Fiero. It made me remember what was so special about these little cars in the first place, and shortly after that post I had my fourth Fiero!
I am determined to preserve the basic essence of the car this time, but extract its maximum performance capability. BTW, there have been quite a few front engine conversions for drag racing (been there - done that), one of which was even available in a video clip here on the forum. Actually the challenge of making our m/r layout run fast has become something I look forward to. If the front drivers were able to accomplish what they have we should be able to FLY! One last point: In the twenty-first century a real hot rod, custom, street machine, or whatever you choose to call it, is expected to do all things well. Accelerate like a Patriot missile, turn like an F15, and stop like a bullet hitting Superman square in the chest. What better format to accomplish that goal than a Fiero!
p.s. - I'd be a little scared of the fuel tank in the back like that - might make the old Ford Pinto seem safe as a Volvo!!!
edited cuz i was in a hurry the first time - hehehe ------------------
Yeah It would probably not make a good driver with it set up like that. I plan in keeping the v6 configuration but havent got the time or money to upgrade. Any tips to improve my reaction time? my fastest it .326. I am afraid of having my car roll on me and red lighting. I have thought of installing a line lock do you have any experience with these?
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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02:59 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by red85gt: Yeah It would probably not make a good driver with it set up like that. I plan in keeping the v6 configuration but havent got the time or money to upgrade. Any tips to improve my reaction time? my fastest it .326. I am afraid of having my car roll on me and red lighting. I have thought of installing a line lock do you have any experience with these?
Couple questions:
1) Are you driving a manual or auto?
2) Are you staging shallow or deep? Shallow is when you barely light the second staging bulb, deep is driving further in after the second bulb lights (possible to stage so deep the first bulb goes out too). A lot of drivers don't pay attention to where they stage and have inconsistant RT's (that is one possible source). RT is when the tire clears the second staging bulb, and it goes out. Perfect is when you clear it just when the green lights. Red is when the bulb goes out before the green lights. Sorry if you knew all this - have to cover all the bases to help.
3) Are you racing on a "5-tenths" (.500) bracket race style tree, where each yellow lights individually; or a 4-tenths pro style heads-up tree, where all yellows light together?
4) Which light are you leaving on?
5) How many times have you raced your car at the drag strip?
The biggest key is becoming comfortable at the line. If you have a stick the line lock is a good idea. With an auto you might be able to drive off the line about as good using both feet (human line lock). Line lock is great, especially on manual cars, but it also gives you another thing to do at the line. You have to perfectly time the release of the clutch, getting on the accelerator, and popping the line lock button. One possible trick to elminate one step is to integrate the switch into the clutch pedal actuation, so that as soon as you start releasing the clutch the line lock comes off.
I've heard some peeple tlak about how similar the Northstar is to the Ford Mod Motors. If this is true would it be possible to put a new Cobra S/C on a Northstar? If they are demintionally the same you could probabbly turn it into a 5.4L like the Lightning motor, right? Now that would be a sweet set up.
Not like I'm actually gonna do this...just throwing out ideas to "stir the pot."
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11:56 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
I don't belive the N* and any ford engine share any dimentions, internal or external... (dosen't mean they don't, just I haven't been told
The Cobra R had the 5.4l DOHC cammer (4.6DOHC punched out) the Lightening afaik is a pushrod 351/302-something, with a blower.
The new GT40 is supposed to get basically the Cobra R motor (5.4l) blown.
It'd be relatively easy to bolt up a blower to an N*, infact, look on http://www.chrfab.com, they've done it! The motor is so low in the Fiero bay, that I don't doubt it'd fit under our hood. All you need is a custom intake, and as that just bolts straight to the heads, and has no coolant or other scary BS running through, it's pretty easy to fabricate.
Centrifugical would be even easier.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Ok i will answer in order as you asked 1. Manual 2. shallow just till I turn on the second light 3. bracket style tree 4. Try to leave just as the yellow light goes out. 5. once at the strip. took my impala twice same times with the Fiero and Impala
Maybe I just need more practice Also after a few hard runs my shifter dosent work very smooth. Is this just normal wear and tear from racing? I have a 4 speed manual
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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03:00 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by red85gt: Ok i will answer in order as you asked 1. Manual 2. shallow just till I turn on the second light 3. bracket style tree 4. Try to leave just as the yellow light goes out. 5. once at the strip. took my impala twice same times with the Fiero and Impala
Maybe I just need more practice Also after a few hard runs my shifter dosent work very smooth. Is this just normal wear and tear from racing? I have a 4 speed manual
1) You should definitely consider getting the line lock with a manual. It'll help you concentrate on your holeshot rather than the car drifting. Look into integrating the switch with the clutch - that's how I plan to run mine.
2) Good, keep staging shallow until you become very comfortable and consistent off the line, then maybe you'll want to experiment with deep staging later.
3) Learn to focus on the light you plan to leave on with a bracket tree, so the other bulbs don't raise your adrenaline too much and ruin your concentration.
4) Try leaving as soon as the last yellow lights, or maybe when the second yellow goes out. Experiment during test-n-tune if you plan to run in the program, cuz you might red light before you get it down pat.
5) Your reaction times will improve with dedicated practice. Try to be as systematic as possible. A good racer does the same routine everytime, repetition will improve your technique. Be prepared to make adjustments to that system as you learn and grow.
When you are pulling up to the line, preparing to stage, make sure you have the finish line in your sights. Pick the spot where you want to end up. Then after you stage and leave, that spot will become your focal point again.
Your shifter shouldn't change in one night at the track. Do you mean it becomes hard to shift? If so, the real problem may be in the hydraulic clutch assembly, or the clutch pedal. Do you have the aluminum clutch pedal? If so it's probably pretty well mangled and not letting you get full engagement. Or, you may have air in the lines. Archie's site has an excellent tech section that covers this in detail. I just looked in my latest project car a few days ago and saw the bent aluminum clutch pedal arm. They probably tried everything under the sun to get this car to shift too! They gave up in 1993, with 71K on the car!
One more question: how are you shifting when making a pass?
Originally posted by artherd: The Cobra R had the 5.4l DOHC cammer (4.6DOHC punched out) the Lightening afaik is a pushrod 351/302-something, with a blower.
The new GT40 is supposed to get basically the Cobra R motor (5.4l) blown.
The older Lightnings used a 351 but I can't remember if they were supercharged or not but I don't think so, the new ones use a SC'd 5.4. the same setup as the GT40 but the truck motor is iron. I'm sure that the GT40 has a few more tweeks done to it.
The 1715 pounds current weight of my autocross car is with 41/59 front/rear distribution. I am currently removing the oem fuel tank and filler neck and adding an 8 gallon fuel cell in the front where the spare tire used to sit, which will bring weight distribution to about 43/57, which is almost exactly the same as stock, as well as lowering total weight to about 1700 pounds.
I am removing a little of the unneccesary steel from the trunk area which should drop total weight down to about 1685 pounds, and improve weight distribution even more.
This should be enough to limit the chance of "lifting" the front too much under acceleration. (we already had several people comment that we sere "carrying" the inside front wheel coming out of corners similar to the way 911 porsches do)
The other reason for shifting more weight onto the front is that we are getting inside front wheel lockup under braking, and hope to minimize it with added front weight. Either that or we would have to change to a different proportioning valve, and I prefer not to have to mess with that.
I finally have started updating my web site again too. So it has pictures and comments about most of this.
The clutch works great in my car the shifter is slightly hanging up when I change gears. I have already adjusted it once and it fixed it so I guess I will have to go through the adjustment again. When I shift I push in the clutch and let off the gas then I step off the clutch as Im hammering it to the floor. I am really fast and my car jumps nicely. My second synchro is too worn to power shift ie shifting while holding it to the floor. My dad has raced drag cars and when he tried it it just grinds second but power shifting into third is ok. For every day driving the trans is silky smooth has no problems. My pedal is stock so I have no idea what it is Its not bent though because my clutch saftey switch still work properly. My racing season is over for this year but next year I will get a line lock for it. I am putting the switch on my shifter so I can enage my clutch till is just starts to grab. Then I can release it and relaese the switch and get som good reaction times. Even at 16.5 my car can win races because I run within .05 of it usually. My dial in is currently 16.51 but I need to race some more to get a better feel. My Preadators hook awsome I launch at 3000 and the car squats nicely and im gone! I definately need some video to see if there is tire spin at all because It feel like the clutch slips some times but it might just be bad track. Phew that was long!
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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02:47 AM
PFF
System Bot
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Kinda a pity Ford had to resort to a blower to get the 4.6(5.4) to really go, but it's a heluva motor, that's for sure!
The SC 4.6 went to an iron block too. Methinks there'll be a lot of lighning->Cobra swaps
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by Leper: The older Lightnings used a 351 but I can't remember if they were supercharged or not but I don't think so, the new ones use a SC'd 5.4. the same setup as the GT40 but the truck motor is iron. I'm sure that the GT40 has a few more tweeks done to it.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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03:17 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hey, does one really need a line-lock for drag racing a stickshift car? I always heel-and-toed it off the line. (hold real light brake pressure to prevent car from rolling with toe, rev motor with ball of foot, and release clutch.
It's a tap-dance for sure, but FUN and challenging!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
That might work but the pedals are nto really deigned for that. clutch and brake squished together and the gas way off to the right. the gas also is a lot lower to the floor than the brake at least 1-2". Hmm I might have to play with that and maybe save some money. I launch a 3000 so I have to press the gas pretty far I gont know if I can keep the rpm's steady and hold the brake at the same time while also timming the clutch Im confused just writting it down.
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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04:06 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by red85gt: That might work but the pedals are nto really deigned for that. clutch and brake squished together and the gas way off to the right. the gas also is a lot lower to the floor than the brake at least 1-2". Hmm I might have to play with that and maybe save some money. I launch a 3000 so I have to press the gas pretty far I gont know if I can keep the rpm's steady and hold the brake at the same time while also timming the clutch Im confused just writting it down.
That's why I recommended going with the line lock. It is definitely possible, to launch like that but remember 'ol Ben is a serious road racer so heal-n-toeing is second nature to him! It could become so to you too, with practice. I would use the line lock though because that's one more thing that can go wrong and we don't have the next lap, or the next one, and so on, to get it right. 'Specially you when you're in the program. I hate bracket racing and only go for heads up grudge racing so I could even get away with it more - if I can coax the guy into one more run!
Just for the record - in street-legal drag racing it is always our goal to get the best holeshot possible, and leave 'em in the dust, but it is actually more important to have enough motor to run 'em down on the big end. That gives one the opportunity to "nudge" the opponent out, thereby preserving a little for the next race, or the next guy! It's really a lot like playing poker - you never reveal your hand, you bluff, and you're always trying to figure what the other guy is holding!
Hmm that is probably why I lost. Although I beat a 15 sec firebird in my first race. Flat out is how I raced my car so 16.5 is all I got maybe next time I will do 17's to fake out my comp. Also i dident realize I also had to beat him across the finish line as well as not braking out.( Was told afterwards yeah like that helped me!) All in all next year I should be more competitive and have better times. What company's line lock would you people recommend I use?
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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05:06 PM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
If you play the street racers' game in bracket racing be careful. You'll need lot's of practice to get it down but would probably have a lot of fun. In a street style race it's easy because the first one across the finish line wins (no breakout). By sandbagging on your dial-in you can give yourself some room to play though. For instance: You could dial in at 16.90 and learn where to get out of the throttle stay above your dial. In a tight race you can actually push a slightly slower opponent into breaking out trying to catch you, or a slightly faster one by making him think you're going to go by him - then you let up and coast through the traps ! You just have to really know when to back out to not go under yourself! If you're really serious about bracket racing they have crazy computer crap that can help you be amazingly consistent while you play! The most sophisticated of them will have you practically going along for the ride while the car drives itself in a perfect pass - boring.
As far as line locks go, I haven't heard anything bad about any of them yet. Usually people just say they have a line lock, with no mention of who made it. Summit has a Biondo for about $55 with accessory kit. That sounds like a good deal if you want to save a few bucks. I'll ask around and see what the guys around here are using.
Hey thanks for the imput im hoping to be more competitive next time. I think I will buy a membership and race in Sport Modifed. Also I have to win the race and not beat my dial in for my class so I can't sand bag it to much or I will end up breaking out. I will definately take lots of pics and even some video hopefully and post some of my stuff here for you guys.
------------------ Stock 85 GT Bracket Racer My record so far is 1W 1L Fastest time 16.54
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03:12 AM
perkidelic Member
Posts: 772 From: Masury Ohio USA Registered: Aug 2002
Originally posted by perkidelic: 'Nother question for ya Ben: How would I go about making sure that my 12pt. cage would past tech at whatever road course I decided to play on? Drag racing is easy because there are basically two major sanctioning bodies and if your car can pass tech (safety not individual classes) with them you can run probably any track in the States.
Here's what she looks like:
I think your best bet is to get an SCCA rule book to determine what needs done on the cage. They're not the only race class, but the most popular/prevelent association out there; more likely than not, if your cage is ok for SCCA, it's ok for all the others (NASA is the only other prevelant one I know of off the top of my head). The rule book will explain all of the exact details on the cages.
I plan on buying an SCCA rule book as soon as I get some money (heh, along with 100 other things); I can't go much further with my project car until I pick a class to compete in, mostly because I'm afraid of doing something that will put me in a class I won't be able to compete in without a bunch more money and time, all for one stupid rule violation that wouldn't help me much anyway.
Ever see a Super Street car run? That's about what they do.
) Even in turn 11, a *tight* second-gear 180*, if your entry speed is right, just roll on it at apex, and you'll carry right out every time. Pick a 2" oil stain somewhere on the line, and I can hit it every time. 
). Hood, fenders, and light assemblies, were already missing. I stripped the interior. To further complicate things, I expect to lose about 150lbs on the front axle, by the time I am finished, which means I would have to lose a grand total of 500 on the rear axle. I imagine an LS1 (all aluminum) mounted in a stretched Hern tubular cradle would do the trick though. That would also put me at 1850lbs total. Not quite what I was looking for (1500) but not bad at all.
! You just have to really know when to back out to not go under yourself! If you're really serious about bracket racing they have crazy computer crap that can help you be amazingly consistent while you play! The most sophisticated of them will have you practically going along for the ride while the car drives itself in a perfect pass - boring. 
