Wow, page 2 already.

doh! missed that one.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Hey Arch, the kit a respected forum member just recieved this past week was not made using aluminum. I guess from now on it's not just bad engineering, but fraud.

Hey sacks how many more times are you gona stick your foot in your mouth, better quit while your not really ahead... anyone have that Ass-clown award handy?

I really still cant belive we have people trying to still argue this, this is just plain ass stupid.. We have 3 examples now posted here, Crazy_Daves, California Kids (4 point) and Archies, whats there not to understand? KNock knock! hellllloo?? any brains in there people?! Get over it already.

[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 11-05-2002).]

If it looks like a flame and reads like a flame, then guess what, it's a flame.

quote As I've explained TWICE now, it wasn't a flame. I know you've read those posts where I explain that it isn't a flame.

When did anyone say what kind of car it was for? I just thought it was dumb engineering and a rip off; no matter what tranny.

quote This whole thread has been about stick shift cars, my adapter plates for stick shift cars are 6061. The adapters for automatics are steel & will continue to be.

I'm not talking for Hugh. I didn't even want to mention his name. I'm 100% sure he can talk for himself. I just don't want other people to get essentially expensive poo in a box.

quote That "respected forum member" is Hugh, Are you here speaking for Hugh? I'm pretty sure that Hugh could speak for himself.

Great. Name-calling. I've got a better one: big, dumb hairy ape that can't put down a cigarette for two minutes.

quote Sounds like you're just some jerk trying to make trouble for himself.

At least I don't have deceptive advertising.

quote You are the Fraud.

When did I stick my foot in my mouth? Archie's the one backpedaling. You're a moron. I'm trying to help people.

Honestly, I've let Archie post his garbage before without reply, but he attacked Doug, who has answered my questions and other fiero owners quests for years on various lists. I can never remember Doug ever being negative.

Anyone want to say the same about Arch?

quote Hey sacks how many more times are you gona stick your foot in your mouth, better quit while your not really ahead... anyone have that Ass-clown award handy?

Hey Cary, pass the popcorn. This is gettin' good.

Burp!!! FAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: If it looks like a flame and reads like a flame, then guess what, it's a flame. When did I stick my foot in my mouth? Archie's the one backpedaling. You're a moron. I'm trying to help people.

Help people?! LOL!!!! that is the biggest crock of sh*t Ive read yet on this forum, name one thing thats sooooo deceptive..I found it rather obvious why the "steel" plates are used for autos. Maybe your not so sharp. I happen to have a '87 GT that was delivered by Archie in Sep. I am very pleased with it, everything we disscused about what I wanted had been done to the car and everything works as advertised! any questions Ive had about it he is more the willing to talk about it. So go tell your BS to someone that might belive ya.

quote Originally posted by janice_ho: Those are some great numbers. My question is your car - V6 came in about 100lbs more than the curb weight, what do you think the extra weight is?

I'm guessing it's the same thing as the difference between factory performance data and magazine test data. I don't know if curb weight includes all fluids either, like oil, coolant, windshield washer fluid, hydraulic fluid, etc. It may just be a dry weight. All I know is I weighed them both in fully drivable condition with all fluids at equal and appropriate levels. I bet there were more french fries under the seats in the silver car, though.

quote [b]Also, there is 275lbs difference between the 84 and the 88 - That is a lot of weight, I wonder where that came from?

Each year there are new standards from the EPA, DOT and NHTSA that can affect how much a car weighs. It may be a part of that progression, but it may not. Others who have greater familiarity with the various years (like Ed Parks, Bob @ Kickhill, Archie, etc) could probably give a better answer than I could.

Dave

Here you go Dave. Thanks for doing the weight testing!

EDIT: Send me an IM when the Down in Flames pic is needed

[This message has been edited by JEDI (edited 11-05-2002).]

quote Originally posted by JEDI: EDIT: Send me an IM when the Down in Flames pic is needed

Are you kidding? If there aren't any flames the thread isn't that interesting.

I'm still waiting for SCCAFiero, Slammed87 and Cadero George to comment--this thread's just getting rolling.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Are you kidding? If there aren't any flames the thread isn't that interesting. I'm still waiting for SCCAFiero, Slammed87 and Cadero George to comment--this thread's just getting rolling.

LOL sad but true. I give up.. Tag, your turn Dave, hehe. The way I figure it the Naysayers can sit here and stew in there own lies and BS for all I care.. while were out having fun driving and showing off our cars thats what its all about yes?

[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 11-06-2002).]

I want to get one more comment in here before this thread gets locked, because it looks like that's possible. Unfortunately it appears that I may have been the one that sent it in that direction and I really didn't intend that to happen.

quote Originally posted by Archie: As I've explained TWICE now, it wasn't a flame.

Sorry. It was definitely sarcastic, though, and I guess I've seen you get upset enough in other threads that I thought this was already the case here. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your intention.

quote Out of all the people on this Forum, YOU are the person I LEAST expected to consider my post a flame.

Thank you for the compliment.

quote Both cars were measured on the same scale on the same day within one hour of each other. So even if the scales were off the relative values would still be the same. So his analisys would still be valid.

See what Will said. And I mean this as no attack; this is just a statistics math problem.

quote You can bring them if you'd like, I'll probally borrow a set locally by then though. I'd be happy to have my cars weighed at that show also.

Thanks, I'd like to see what some of your cars weigh. I'll bring a set, too, in case you aren't able to come up with any. I'm really truly just interested in finding out what different cars weigh. We've talked about this (bringing scales) on the racing list before and I think it's a great idea.

quote My comment about an auditor, is that some people will only believe weights that they see themselves...

I know. I was trying to go along with the joke.

quote When you ask for "accurate numbers" without regard to numbers previously posted, you are in effect calling those people liars.

I know you said that this wasn't directed at me, but I just want to clarify that I wasn't implying that anybody was a liar. I was asking for more accurate numbers. There is no such thing as absolute accuracy, only accuracy with a certain specified range of error that is as small as you can get it. I was hoping to see numbers with error in the range of a few pounds instead of a few tens of pounds. My statement of "Total weight would be exact ... was obviously inaccurate and for that I apologize.

OK, I'm done. I didn't mean any harm; I only expressed my desire to see the most accurate numbers possible for purely objective reasons. Thanks California Kid for posting corner weights. Your car is impressively well balanced.

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Doug Chase
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser)
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver)
'85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car)

Edited because, as usual, I screwed up the HTML

[This message has been edited by Doug Chase (edited 11-06-2002).]

That's great that it only made that much difference! I would generally go with the 110lb difference as a reference though, since that is really what a v8 conversion will add. But that's still impressive, and with moving the battery, the weight distribution will still be about stock. That difference is not bad for a street car.

I guess it just all depends on what you want, though.

I don't understand why there is such a weight difference between Dave's car and California Kid's car though. How much gas was in each tank? I think they typically weight cars with half a tank of gas. But according to those numbers, California Kid lost 3lbs in the conversion. I believe his numbers and I believe CD's numbers, I just want to know where the discrepancy is, like what else was done to Cali's car. His is an 88gt with a getrag also, right? He has an iron block L98, right?

BTW, your conversion looks nice.

quote Originally posted by Borgio: That's great that it only made that much difference! I would generally go with the 110lb difference as a reference though, since that is really what a v8 conversion will add.

That's why I posted both numbers, you can draw your own conclusions from all the information I have provided. But consider this, if the suspension is the same between both automatic and manual cars, apparently the suspension designers didn't think 80lbs was enough to worry about. If it is different, then couldn't you just as well use the spring rates from an automatic car to compensate for that weight increase?

quote But that's still impressive, and with moving the battery, the weight distribution will still be about stock. That difference is not bad for a street car.

With the powertrain shifted to the left and the battery relocated to the front, I would say the weight distribution is improved.

quote BTW, your conversion looks nice.

Thanks...

Dave

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crazyd:

[QUOTE][b]I bet there were more french fries under the seats in the silver car, though.
[QUOTE][b]

Now Dave, I know you, and that alone could be at least a 20 Lb. difference. Maybe you need to reweigh your car.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: That's why I posted both numbers, you can draw your own conclusions from all the information I have provided. But consider this, if the suspension is the same between both automatic and manual cars, apparently the suspension designers didn't think 80lbs was enough to worry about. If it is different, then couldn't you just as well use the spring rates from an automatic car to compensate for that weight increase? Dave

I agree, it's true that it is only 30lbs different than one type of stock fiero, which is a valid point, and it's good that you posted both numbers. You posted those numbers just fine, I wasn't complaining, just clarifying.

So you shifted the drivetrain to the left? That requires notching the frame and costom axles, right? Not that that is a big deal, I just want to make sure I have my info right. I was refering to front to back weight distribution, sorry I didn't clarify that. I didn't know you shifted it, but then you probably have better right to left distribution too. You would get better front to back distribution over an automatic, but not over a manual, with that setup. But, you can move the battery up front in any fiero as well, but if the weight distribution is good anyway, it doesn't matter as much. I hope that makes sense; I'm not a great writer, I sorta ramble.

To go a little off topic but still on the basic issue: As someone posted earler, the weights get heavier every year. I would also like to know if anyone knows why that is.

quote Originally posted by Borgio: To go a little off topic but still on the basic issue: As someone posted earler, the weights get heavier every year. I would also like to know if anyone knows why that is.

OK, above when I said I was done I meant I was done with any flame type stuff. I'd still like to participate in the rest of the intelligent discussion.

Borgio, I've wondered this exact same thing. Dave brings up the point above that it may or may not be because of EPA and etc. I've never had an '84 apart but I've had an '85 and an '88 stripped down pretty good and I haven't seen enough differences to account for the 275lb difference that janice_ho mentions.

This is another reason that I'd like to get a bunch of cars on the scales at the 20th anniversary show. Is there really a 275lb difference between an '84 and a comparably equipped '88? Is there really a 100+ lb difference between a GT and a comparably equipped coupe? I suspect that a lot of these published weight differences are due to changes in standard equipment, but I'd love to see a bunch of cars on the scales to verify whether this is or is not the case.

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Doug Chase
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser)
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver)
'85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car)

Edited for speling this time.

[This message has been edited by Doug Chase (edited 11-06-2002).]

I'll second that.

quote Originally posted by 1SWTGT: Why yes, actually I have. In fact, I picked it up and held it with just two fingers because it's a big, ugly, shiny piece of alluminum!

I talked to Archie when the plate arrived to find out it is not available in aluminum as an option.That's the end of that.I'm going to use Archie's kit and damn the weight.People on this forum talk about weight as if that was so important on a street driven car,which most are driving.If this were a race application it would be much more important.I know some are raced and it is those who feel the need for weight loss and car balance.I'm going to take mine to the track when I can and enjoy it.I could care less if it weighs more than some people think it should!

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#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!

quote Originally posted by hugh: People on this forum talk about weight as if that was so important on a street driven car,which most are driving.If this were a race application it would be much more important.

I agree, Here's something to think about.
Gasoline weighs 8.8lbs per gallon. Take an 87 4-cyl auto trans Fiero and run it down the 1/4 mile with only 1 gallon of gas. Then fill up the tank and run again. The weight difference will be 88 lbs. (87/88 have the 11 gallon gas tank) The difference is going to be about .1 seconds. For those that race at a strip and constantly try to improve their times, .1 seconds is a lot. Especially the faster you go. But on a car to enjoy and drive around and the occassional blast down the highway, (or street race) is .1 seconds really going to matter? Especially when your removing a V-6 and installing a V-8??
Your going from a 15-17 second car to an 11-12 second car, Are you really going to miss the .1 seconds?

BTW ~ Dave, Thanks for taking the time to weigh your cars.

------------------

Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Burp!!! FAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

and I thought I was the only one who did this..

GMGW3, explain to me like I'm a five year old why one could not design an adapter for an auto that is made of 6061.

Explain to me like I'm a five year old, why one could not design a proper engine mount and not a piece of angle iron to weld on yourself even though it is advertised as a kit.

I've got a car kit for sale. It's just a big box of 4130 and some wheels, but you can make a S7 out of it if you have a welder.

Anybody got that down in flames pic ready?

Why should Archie, or anyone for that matter, explain anything to you? You've already demonstrated that you've drawn your own conclusions and nothting anyone can say will change your mind. Trying to have a discussion with you is like trying to convince the wind not to blow.

So make like the wind, and blow....

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: mount and not a piece of angle iron to weld on yourself even though it is advertised as a kit.

Summit sells roll bar KITS that REQUIRE welding. Just because it needs welding, dosen't change the fact that its a KIT.

Rob D.

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 11-06-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: GMGW3, explain to me like I'm a five year old why one could not design an adapter for an auto that is made of 6061. Explain to me like I'm a five year old, why one could not design a proper engine mount and not a piece of angle iron to weld on yourself even though it is advertised as a kit. I've got a car kit for sale. It's just a big box of 4130 and some wheels, but you can make a S7 out of it if you have a welder.

Howard, I am just letting you know that you are not alone here .. I would like to know this info too..These are facts that I never heard about and it is getting more interesting as we get into the "Kit". If I have to weld something.. then what do I need a kit for?? The adapter schematics are not archie's property..they have been bounced around the web for so long that it is freeware.. AND If I have to weld on a front adapter plate, why not just continue the welding and make up a front mount?

I will try to guess the reason here..So that when the weld breaks from too much torque (I understand that it is a solid front mount in the kit???) .."Archie" will not be responsible for 'faulty workmanship'.. but for the price that he charges for doing the swap "in house" he will gladly stand by his welds..

And I am asking Archie a simple question here...What "factory" parts does he remove to keep the weight of this swap down to 110 pounds over a stock V6?? ( and no one else can "talk" for him here, as I just might hold him to his word, (my perogative as a consumer) as he states that he never lies.)
And please repeat that your "kit" to swap a SBC into a Fiero, only adds 110 lbs total including the new motor, over a stock V6 in your reply too)

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-06-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Edited part.."People on this forum talk about weight as if that was so important on a street driven car" Except for this part... Have you not spun out in a stock Fiero by taking a corner too fast on the street yet??? but it is your car..your life..your responsiblity..

No! Have you? And if you have, then stop driving like a jackass!

And even if I DID spin out, you could avoid my tail heavy dinosaur with your slower, better handling car, right? So what's the problem?

I can't believe you're still prattling on about this...

Hartz

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'84 SC 5.7L V8
'85 SE 3.1L V6 Turbo
Hartz's Toys

[Shatner Voice]Must...beat...dead........HORSE!

For the love of GOD, Archie, don't you know a SBC adds at least 500lbs to a Fiero!! Forget what the scales say, trust me - believe ... in... me![/Shatner Voice]

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-06-2002).]

So why is everyone so concerned about an exact weight difference? What difference does it make if it adds 30 or 110 or even 200 pounds unless someone can provide evidence of exactly how much a given weight change affects handling?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: [Shatner Voice]Must...beat...dead........HORSE! For the love of GOD, Archie, don't you know a SBC adds at least 500lbs to a Fiero!! Forget what the scales say, trust me - believe ... in... me![/Shatner Voice] [This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-06-2002).]

ROFLMAO! You make me spit water out my nose...

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: GMGW3, explain to me like I'm a five year old why one could not design an adapter for an auto that is made of 6061. Explain to me like I'm a five year old, why one could not design a proper engine mount and not a piece of angle iron to weld on yourself even though it is advertised as a kit. I've got a car kit for sale. It's just a big box of 4130 and some wheels, but you can make a S7 out of it if you have a welder.

"Explain to a five year old"....OK Howard, it's time for bed, child! Goodnight!
Sandy

[This message has been edited by cowans (edited 11-06-2002).]

quote Originally posted by chester: ROFLMAO! You make me spit water out my nose...

I thought it was funny too!

Come on Archie..no more sidestepping here..just give us straight facts that you will stand by.. I said before that I am weary of the game..I want straight facts with no "weighing one car that is "heavier than stock but is touted as stock.. French fries???..come on... Removing personal things..adding the weight of an auto... By the way..how many of you want to drive spiritedly on the street with in a stock V6 with an auto in your car?? .. then trying to say that added rear weight doesn't matter ..AND then verbally abusing us poor people that "dare to Question" because we want to get straight facts about the ramifications of this swap... If we have to ask more than once..then something is wrong with your answers...

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: ...if I can spin out by taking a corner too fast in a "duke"..then imagine what I will do with 400 horses.. THAT is why I ask so many questions about this swap.. If I ain't gonna drive it..then why do the swap ???

If you can spin out in a Duke then I BEG you not to drive anything with 400 horses regardless of the number of cylinders. Go to a driving school, and, as stated above:

STOP DRIVING LIKE A JACKASS!!!

Hartz

quote Originally posted by DRH: So why is everyone so concerned about an exact weight difference? What difference does it make if it adds 30 or 110 or even 200 pounds unless someone can provide evidence of exactly how much a given weight change affects handling?

I got things to do..but I would like for Will to explain this to you.. ( I know that he can better than I can.. )the more weight on the back end the more cornering is impacted at the edge... look at old Porche 911's VS new ones...

HMMM, all this time I thought the Fiero was a Mid-Engine car, Not a rear-engined car. (Porshce 911's are rear-engined vehicles)

Mid-Engine ~ weight of the engine is FORWARD of the rear axle.

Driving a regular car with 2 friends in the back seat (adding more weight in front of the rear axle) Causes so many more car accidents these days.

Whats the point of this arguement?

Some people dont car if the car weighs(SS raises hand) Some people do car(autoXer's, Rally racer's, etc.)

The point is Build the car for you. Dont build a small v6 because someone says a V8 will handle like a Pig. I am pulling the engine out of my Yellow formula this weekend. Guess whats going in over the winter. a BIG FAT HEAVY IRON small BLOCK CHEVY. Why, cuz they look cool. I also like the SC3800. Maybe that will be my next project.

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Two 88FORMULAS Red & Yellow
SSFiero@Aol.com

Has Porsche ever made a mid-engined 911? Does a rear-engine car have the same handling dynamics as a mid-engine car? Answer: No. Okay, glad we got that cleared up, please return to your rock, SanBerdufus.

Dave