So why is everyone so concerned about an exact weight difference? What difference does it make if it adds 30 or 110 or even 200 pounds unless someone can provide evidence of exactly how much a given weight change affects handling?
I got things to do..but I would like for Will to explain this to you.. ( I know that he can better than I can.. )the more weight on the back end the more cornering is impacted at the edge... look at old Porche 911's VS new ones...
[/QUOTE]
I understand that it affects the handling, the question is how much? If I bolt 50 lbs of dead weight in the engine compartment, would there be a noticeable, consistent difference in times on a road course or autocross? How much would it be? Unless you have a definitive answer to that question, what good does it do to have a definitive answer to the amount of weight a particular engine adds?
The next question would be; is this negative affect offset by the increase in power? If you take two otherwise identically equipped stock Fieros, one with a 4 and one with a 6, it would be all but impossible to find a situation where the 4 would win any sort of race. Even though the 6 is heavier in the rear, the power more than compensates.
IP: Logged
03:04 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Wow, it just occured to me how bad my Formula must handle. LZeigeist and I have identical 88 Formulas (both 5-speed, sunroof, etc.); however, I have A/C, and he doesn't, and I weigh about 100lbs more than him. So, my Formula must weigh at least 100-150lbs more than LZ's Formula. And with my extra body weight all on one side of the car, it's a wonder I'm not driving in circles all the time!
Wow, I'd better go on a diet and loose the A/C, or my car will NEVER handle worth a crap.
Originally posted by crypto1079:I don't know where you found this info, but gasoline weighs between 6-6.5 lbs per gallon, not 8.8. Ever wonder why it floats on water???
Thanks for mentioning this, I got 6.42 from a guy at the hangar and was about to look it up somewhere else to make sure.
Dave
IP: Logged
03:42 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Formula88, don't you have a space station or something to crash? 150lbs is a lot. I know I can feel the difference in handling and am no Schumacher.
And what's wrong with wanting the best product. If something can be made 20lbs lighter, why not make it that way? The fiero is heavy enough to begin with.
It's really too bad that Archie has no competition because if he did, maybe some of you could take the blinders off. Anyone considering buying the kit should watch the video. It's worthy of Mystery Science Theater 3000.
and I still don't get why the automatic requires the cheapest grade of steel available. I guess no one here knows either or the "obvious" reason would have been posted.
I'm in the process of figuring out just how bad that extra weight is by using Adams.
Has Porsche ever made a mid-engined 911? Does a rear-engine car have the same handling dynamics as a mid-engine car? Answer: No. Okay, glad we got that cleared up, please return to your rock, SanBerdufus.
Dave
I sure am glad that you didn't say "under my rock" as it would have hurt my feelings...
The "point" was that the Porshe engineers hated the fact that there was too much weight on the rear and did what it took to change it to not as much...(sigh) ...So.. just change it from "Porche" to longitudinal mounted sbc with a boat anchor auto transmission... ( just ask Hugh!) ...are you all happy now??? ))
AND ..in my own little world here I will climb back on my rock..put my elbow on my knee and my fist under my chin...
Wow, it just occured to me how bad my Formula must handle. LZeigeist and I have identical 88 Formulas (both 5-speed, sunroof, etc.); however, I have A/C, and he doesn't, and I weigh about 100lbs more than him. So, my Formula must weigh at least 100-150lbs more than LZ's Formula. And with my extra body weight all on one side of the car, it's a wonder I'm not driving in circles all the time!
Wow, I'd better go on a diet and loose the A/C, or my car will NEVER handle worth a crap.
Does this mean that you are fat?/ or do you consider yourself Ballast??? Steroids maybe??? that would explain your mood swings...
IP: Logged
05:24 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
I understand that it affects the handling, the question is how much? If I bolt 50 lbs of dead weight in the engine compartment, would there be a noticeable, consistent difference in times on a road course or autocross?
Yes.
quote
How much would it be?
That depends on a lot of things, but on an autocross course a tenth of a second would probably be reasonable. If that doesn't sound like a big deal check out the ES results (ES is where a stock V6 Fiero would race) from this year's National Championships and look at the intervals between cars. For example, the difference between first and second place is 0.080 seconds over two days. An extra tenth or two per day would have made a big difference.
quote
Unless you have a definitive answer to that question, what good does it do to have a definitive answer to the amount of weight a particular engine adds?
What's wrong with pure scientific curiosity? I don't have a V8 Fiero and probably never will, but I read the V8 threads because I might learn something interesting.
quote
The next question would be; is this negative affect offset by the increase in power?
It probably is in most cases. You could probably come up with a situation where it wouldn't be (like bolting a V8 into a base coupe and keeping the 185/70-13 tires) because of traction and difficulty to drive, but I think it's safe to say that the weight would almost always be offset by the increased power.
If you keep the power constant, however, you can always make the car faster by reducing weight. Crazy Dave saved a bunch of weight by going to aluminum heads and he stated that he could save about 90 lbs more by going to an aluminum block. That's a significant amount of weight.
Formula88, don't you have a space station or something to crash? 150lbs is a lot. I know I can feel the difference in handling and am no Schumacher.
And what's wrong with wanting the best product. If something can be made 20lbs lighter, why not make it that way? The fiero is heavy enough to begin with.
It's really too bad that Archie has no competition because if he did, maybe some of you could take the blinders off. Anyone considering buying the kit should watch the video. It's worthy of Mystery Science Theater 3000.
and I still don't get why the automatic requires the cheapest grade of steel available. I guess no one here knows either or the "obvious" reason would have been posted.
I'm in the process of figuring out just how bad that extra weight is by using Adams.
This is the whole point..IF you ask a legitimate question from anyone else on this forum everyone tries to answer. BUT if you ask the SBC guy's to explain about their swap they resort to name calling and telling you to just go away..and I am still waiting for some timeslips...
IP: Logged
05:30 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
but it is your car..your life..your responsiblity..
[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-06-2002).]
yes, it is there car, then why does it matter to you so much what somebody elses's car weights?! Obviously youve never driven an SBC fiero, sound like you've never driven a performance SBC car period.
Overall weight its going to be different on ever scale in the country. Most knowledgeable people know that. Why? because different elevations cause weight changes. For someone at sea level weight is probably pretty accurate but every one and every scale isnt at sea level. If someone weighed a car in new orleans and the sdme car is west pennsilvania , the new orleans car may weight 50-100lbs more. Weight is not accurate, thats why scientists abandoned it a long long time ago. Mass is the way to do it, no matter where you are, high, low, in space or under sea your mass is the same.
Although I still doent get how many V-8 owners can show weight slips but apparently every anti-V8 person says the scale is inaccurate, of course any scale they've taken there car to is the most accurate in the world though. i bet if a v-6 guy took there car with a v-8 guy to the same scale and the difference was only like 70lbs the V-6 would say "oh, after every car the scale is in accurate again, im lucky they re-adjusted it for mine, your weight gain should be near 200lbs" idiots. Funny how Pizza boys or some 20 year old make $6.50 an hour know more about cars than people that have been working on or around cars for 25 years.
------------------ --Adam-- 1987 Blue GT 5-speed IM AOL: GTFiero Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs
remember, Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops
IP: Logged
05:47 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Does this mean that you are fat?/ or do you consider yourself Ballast??? Steroids maybe??? that would explain your mood swings...
And I'm the one name-calling? Ok, for the record, yes, I'm fat. Also for the record, LZ isn't. So, yes, there's about 150lb difference between our otherwise identical cars including our driving weights. And we can't tell any difference in the way they handle. My car doesn't handle any different than his, as far as we can tell. Maybe a stopwatch on a skidpad could tell the difference. But I drive my car on the street, not on a skidpad.
So do you have any more personal jabs you'd care to make? Are we going to start talking about each other's mothers now?
IP: Logged
05:57 PM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
Originally posted by Howard_Sacks:Formula88, don't you have a space station or something to crash? 150lbs is a lot. I know I can feel the difference in handling and am no Schumacher.
Nice. Actually, I haven't worked for NASA since Aug, 1996. Loosing that job was probably the hardest career blow I've had in my life. I'm glad it offered you an opportunity for a jab. Any other jabs you'd care to make? Perhaps remarks about questionable parentage? Will that make you feel better?
I'm speaking from experience. I can compare 2 virutally ideantical cars with about 150lbs difference in their weights and can't tell a difference in how they handle.
So you guys go ahead and call me a fat, laid off, liar, if that's what validates your existance. I've related personal experience. Archie and Dave and posted real world numbers. Nothing is going to be good enough for either of you. So why do you keep asking the same questions?
Of course, it's because you don't feel the question has been properly answered. But unless everyone bows to your opinion and says they are wrong and you are right, you're not going to be satisfied with the answer.
IP: Logged
06:09 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
What happened to this thread ???? I posted to it the other day and everything was fine. Now it is a flame war. Us "V8 people" are not making these numbers up. As far as accuracy goes I could see how someone could argue that a scale meant to weigh heavier weights could be in accurate, but Dave weighed two cars on the same scale that were around the same weight so if the scale was off it should be off equally. So the difference is correct. When I weighed mine I topped off my car with gas, and went directly to the scales in the same truck stop. So it was full.( I was trying to take the weight of the fuel out of the equation) .I also had a 9lb fire extinguisher in the trunk. Do I believe the an iron block is lighter than mine no way. I don't exactly believe the perfectly round numbers the scale I went to came up with . I am sure it rounds to a certain extent. But if you take the average of all the numbers they are reasonably close so I think the weight gain of 80 to 110 LB is fairly accurate.
What happened to this thread ???? I posted to it the other day and everything was fine. Now it is a flame war..
Yes it is rather pathetic as Chester said, You can thank Howard and SanBerdue for that They seem to like to troll around looking for any reason at all to slam on Archie.This thread was orignally for Dave weighing of his cars, Dave puts down some hard proof, ok and it looks like the average SBC swap can range anywhere from 110-170 lbs of weight gain pending on heads as known by many but disputed by a few. But it seems the few have no way to disprove the facts now and are pissed off so why not just put up a smoke screen and start slamming on Arch, thats just pretty lame. As far as Howards comment about deceptive advertising and fraud blah blah.. Its right on Archies web site in black and white wich kits have what.. www.v8archie.com/v8fiero hmm whats so hard to understand.. the manual kit lists the plate as 6061, the automatic does not."duh" im sure theres been people that have questions about kits and such, but gee look at that there is even a handy lil 800 number to call Im sure he can answer any questions you have.. If you dont like what you see then make your own damn kit, and oh ripping on his instruction video, oh ya thats was very mature, hes in the car biz not out to get a Academy Award. Ive wasted enough of Cliffs bandwidth on this dribble..Sorry Cliff but just bothers the hell out me when people talk out of there ass like that. I wont reply any more to this mess its only like trying to argue with a Brick. Im going out to work on my Fiero for a bit now.
[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 11-06-2002).]
Just to add to the controversy , I decided to the "The Curse" to one of the local scales.
2870 pounds 87 T-top 5 speed coupe SBC engine with aluminum heads, empty nitrous bottle and no air
Tina..you just made me one of your biggest fans.. The rest of you look at what Dave posted for the curb weight for Her model in stock trim ..I still think that archie IS telling the truth about his weights..but that he is removing parts off the car that he won't tell the rest of us about..AND CrazyD never did explain why his stock V6 weight was so high.. 2800 is about the maximum weight of a 86.5 + GT the coupes weigh in around 2625lbs in my opinion.
...But I will take his word that THAT car weighed what he said.. Bottom line is that I want to know an accurate weight that this swap adds...and it seems to be asking too much for it to be done "right" with full disclosure..
And I'm the one name-calling? Ok, for the record, yes, I'm fat. Also for the record, LZ isn't. So, yes, there's about 150lb difference between our otherwise identical cars including our driving weights. And we can't tell any difference in the way they handle. My car doesn't handle any different than his, as far as we can tell. Maybe a stopwatch on a skidpad could tell the difference. But I drive my car on the street, not on a skidpad.
So do you have any more personal jabs you'd care to make? Are we going to start talking about each other's mothers now?
I will make a deal with all of you..( as you all started the "Name calling" and Jabs First..) If you All stop..then I will stop too..( and this IS the first time that I disrespected anyone on this Forum and I do apologize to you, Formula88, as it is true, I picked on you as your post left you wide open.. Archie and CrazyD have been making fun of my screen name throughout this issue and you did your share at first too...I figure that if it is good enough for you all to do....Then I might as well join in..after all..It is all in fun...right??? So..If no one likes it done to them, then lets just all act like adults from now on. Because I can dish it out better than most...I just choose not to...
IP: Logged
08:34 PM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6232 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Have you doubters actually driven a SBC powered Fiero hard?
Hate to be the one to burst you bubble, I drive a V8Archie with the steel adapter plate, and it seems to actually be MORE sure footed in the back end when pushed hard around a corner.
I've went into corners a lot hotter in the V8 than I would of in my V6 and 4 banger powered fiero's, only to be plesently surprised how well the V8 ate the corners up.
I suggest before you keep beating your dead horse, to acquire a SBC powered fiero and actually drive it hard, and not just a jaunt down the street.
Look at Cali'Kid's car, doesn't he pull over a G on the skid pad?
Yes it is rather pathetic as Chester said, You can thank Howard and SanBerdue for that They seem to like to troll around looking for any reason at all to slam on Archie.This thread was orignally for Dave weighing of his cars, Dave puts down some hard proof,......Sorry Cliff but just bothers the hell out me when people talk out of there ass like that. I wont reply any more to this mess its only like trying to argue with a Brick. Im going out to work on my Fiero for a bit now.
Sorry. but there were problems with Daves weight of his stock GT.. and I think that Archie's numbers need to be explained.. Try this one out.. an Iron Duke weighs 285 lbs.. the factory "lightened" this motor to where it Cannot be safely Hotrodded..the Iron Duke is 1/2 of a V8.. so double it and you come up with 570 LBS..which according to my figures a cast Iron Head SBC weighs 575 lbs.. AND has much more beef to it.. The Duke has a tube header and aluminum intake, and it's crank has offset weights only on one side per cylinder and is weak, and it's rods are lighter too
[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-06-2002).]
Have you doubters actually driven a SBC powered Fiero hard?
Hate to be the one to burst you bubble, I drive a V8Archie with the steel adapter plate, and it seems to actually be MORE sure footed in the back end when pushed hard around a corner....
..... Look at Cali'Kid's car, doesn't he pull over a G on the skid pad?
I am wondering if you only added the SBC.. or did you add other handling mods too?..and does your engine have cast iron heads or aluminum??
And don't forget that Cal Kid's car is a zumalt ?? design that offset the motor to the left, that was set up by ..what was his name??? It is not an Archie kit...
I am done for the night.. wishing everyone peace...Good night
Has Porsche ever made a mid-engined 911? Does a rear-engine car have the same handling dynamics as a mid-engine car? Answer: No. Okay, glad we got that cleared up, please return to your rock, SanBerdufus.
Dave
???1970 914-6 yes they beat the 911's baddly so much that porsche stoped making them with the 6 in the 914 to protect 911's higher priced sales that made them more $$$$ but the 914-6 is still a winner in class races and auto-X today.
the bigger deal than total weights are side to side differences thats where the V-8 swap will hurt you cornering, by haveing the weights over on the right side much higher then the left!!!!
the Fiero is all ready tooo heavy on the right side rear wheels loads stock and the V8 will move the weights over farther so all the weights you can save will help from an alum alloy heads, block, or even intakes!! it all adds up!!!!
if $$$$ is tight do a caddy 4.9 swap car rather than a lower power all iron chevy V8
BTW racers will add a little weight to get wheels loads equal and they HATE TO ADD ANY WEIGHT but want = loads more on both wheels side to side
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
IP: Logged
09:43 PM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6232 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
I am wondering if you only added the SBC.. or did you add other handling mods too?..and does your engine have cast iron heads or aluminum??
And don't forget that Cal Kid's car is a zumalt ?? design that offset the motor to the left, that was set up by ..what was his name??? It is not an Archie kit...
I am done for the night.. wishing everyone peace...Good night
Grasping for straws are we?
IP: Logged
09:51 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
I am wondering if you only added the SBC.. or did you add other handling mods too?..and does your engine have cast iron heads or aluminum??
And don't forget that Cal Kid's car is a zumalt ?? design that offset the motor to the left, that was set up by ..what was his name??? It is not an Archie kit...
I am done for the night.. wishing everyone peace...Good night
first if it has aluminum head or suspensions mods, that doesnt take away the fact that its and SBC Fiero now does it? I havent seen any V-6 guys post handling numbers like Cali Kid's either
Do you really think an offset of 2 inches is goning to change the hole handling attitude of the car? The Zumalt kit is horrible, I know that, Archie knows that, California kid knows that and many other people do to. California kid got lucky and got one of the kits that worked
CrazyD's engine is off-set over 2 inches to the drivers side. All LT1 kits are also off-set.
I noticed Archie hasnt come back because he and many other are tired of your incorrect dribble. You own a Puke Fiero how the hell is it even legal for you to say anything against SBC Fieros. I've had the sh!t scared out of me by Camaros, Firebirds, Chevelles, Novas, Imapalas etc etc. ALL powered by Chevy V-8's
so according to you, the most popular engine in the world is the worst to do anything with, guess millions and millions of people are wrond but your right, right?
------------------ --Adam-- 1987 Blue GT 5-speed IM AOL: GTFiero Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs
remember, Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops
IP: Logged
10:07 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Regarding weight differences between the same type of car with same options, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that they aren't even the same weight when the roll off the assembly line. The reason they don't weigh the same is directly related to the fact that each same part does not weigh the same. This is due to minor virgin materials variation, parts not coming out of the same molds/stamping dies, process material variations, variable manual operations in assembly plants, brand of tires, etc., etc. When you account for the total number of parts that make up a vehicle, the difference in weight between what appears to be two identical vehicles, can stagger the mind! Just one single example would be a sealing compound used for body sealing joints and sound dampening. If one assembly line operator starts laying in on thick or thin, or squirking it all over the place, or not, or was mis-informed exactly how to apply, can result in a plus or minus 25 pound variation. That can result in a 50 pound difference between two cars coming off the same assembly line, that's a fact, and it's just one little piece of what makes up your car. As far as parts go, they are all produced with allowable tolerances, weight is not a primary driver of those accepted tolerances (except in engine parts where some degree balance is essential). Weight is hardly ever closely monitored by either the Supplier or GM for example on a part by part or material application process direct comparsion.
What I'm trying to tell you guys, is that two vehicles ordered with the same options can differ in weight by as much as 200 pounds due to what they call accepted parts, materials, and process variations.
Why is my car lighter that Dave's for example??? Many, Many reasons account for that, our cars are not identical in aftermarket parts, don't share same conversion kit, plus everything I mentioned above.
I mentioned the body sealer/sound deadner above because it's a very good example that adds a lot of weight to the vehicle. In fact, professional racers order a special what they call "Body In White" that is pulled off the assembly line before it reaches the sealer/sound deadner station in the plant. That way they have a lighter weight body to make there race car from, which is very popular in professional drag racing for example.
So weigh all you want, but you'd better check at least a 1,000 cars of same type, and options to get a mean average, then weight the car you're thinking of hopping up to see if you got a heavy or light car out of the GM plant.
As far as the handling of a heavy-ass V8 Fiero, for you newbies, the original owner of my car professionally raced for Porsche for quite a number of years and set records. He saw the potential of the Fiero and set out to make his dream car. He directed the V8 Conversion/Suspension work, and raced it for a number of years in CA very successfully on professional tracks as well as canyon roads. He's known as C5Corvette and posts on some of the other car forums once in a while (see note below). We still stay in touch and he regrets selling me the car to this day. Claims it was the most fun to drive all purpose (meaning street/race) vehicle he has ever owned, and he has a couple very tweaked street/race Porsches, plus a warmed over C5 Corvette. His post on a Corvette Forum is a couple years old and I found it by accident. Car as purchased in CA, heading for Michigan for even more upgrades and show treatments
Have fun with this thread, don't think I'll be posting anymore in this string. Note: I blacked out the kit name because it doesn't really matter and it's not available. You just have to be selective on your choice of parts if you're after the lightest possible conversion, hell I can still take a lot of weight out of the car if I wanted to, but I don't see any point in it.
I am wondering if you only added the SBC.. or did you add other handling mods too?..and does your engine have cast iron heads or aluminum??
And don't forget that Cal Kid's car is a zumalt ?? design that offset the motor to the left, that was set up by ..what was his name??? It is not an Archie kit...
I am done for the night.. wishing everyone peace...Good night
I wasn't gonna answer this, as it is not really necessary.
You are nit picking and trying to get around the issue.
I thought about it, and I will answer your questions honestly.
My original V8 in which I based my opinion on the weight factor was a 85 GT.
No air, sunroof, PM and PW were the only options.
I used Archies Automatic steel adapter plate and steel flexplate crank adaptor. I installed a 5 spd isuzu on this. To make this work, I ended up with the transaxle farther to the drivers side enough to require the drivers side axel needing to be shortened roughly 2 inchs.
The car was actually a in poor mechanical condition other than the engine.
The engine is a fresh 5.7L Tuned Port motor with the late style iron heads and steel valve covers. I used the cast Ramhorn style exhaust manifolds.
The mechanical condition of the car was quite bad when I recieved it, I had to rebuild the rear frame rails so I added some 30 feet of 2" x 1/8 flat bar to the frame rails, further adding extra weigh.
Although I have never weighed any of my cars, I'm sure that this particular V8 car weighed well above 3000 lbs, with the extra weight being added to the rear of the car.
The car ran on cheap ass Defender brand 215/60r 14 tires. The front control arm bushings were worn out along with the ball joints. Stock springs and shocks / struts.
As you see what I did was took a POS fiero and dropped in a V8 with as much extra weight as possible. Maybe if I still had the carbed engine with that cast intake manifold on it, it would have weighed an extra 30 pounds or so.
I was even amazed myself that the car ate up corners as well as it did. I myself was indoubt of the handeling capabilities of all that extra weight BEFORE I undertook this project.
Since then I have swapped that engine / transaxle setup unchanged to a nice clean 87 GT. On that car I have completely rebuilt the suspension and added poly everywhere, eibachs, KYB's,rear sway bar, 215/40ZR17 front and 235/40ZR17 tires. I have also added the 11.25" brakes, and AC.
I have yet to put many miles on this car as I am still in the process of completing it. The car has not even been aligned yet, so I cannot comment on the handeling of this car, other than Holy Moly, it's tight and responsive.
As you see, the car I commented on was extremely rear end heavy, but It really did handle exceptionally well seeing it was in such poor mechanical fitness.
I have been driving fiero's for 14 years now, I work on customers Fiero's everyday.
I have owned numerous 4 bangers, and V6's
What I have found that 4 banger cars feel more crisp than even the V6 cars.
Also I have found that the 4 banger cars tend to loose rear grip the easiest, the v6 cars not as bad as the 4's, but teh V8 had more grip on the rear, and I never had the rear slide on a fast corner.
I have driving my 4 cylinder and V6 cars hard enough, often enough to slide the rear around corners enough so that I know the exact point where the rear end will start to loose grip.
This has been one handeling characteristic that I was not able to reproduce in my ratty old v8 powered 85 GT.
I drove that 85 GT V8 through 3 winters, and not once did I feel uncomfortable in the snow.
I drove my Stock 87 GT last winter and I did have to watch the rear end in the corners.
Me personally, I'll take any extra weigh in back, I find it a nice uppgrade for that ultimite grip.
Originally posted by ray b: ???1970 914-6 yes they beat the 911's baddly
I guess you didn't read very closely what I wrote. You might want to read it again. SanBerdueFiero wasn't talking about a 914 and I wasn't either. I've seen those with SBCs too though.
quote
the bigger deal than total weights are side to side differences thats where the V-8 swap will hurt you cornering, by haveing the weights over on the right side much higher then the left!!!!
the Fiero is all ready tooo heavy on the right side rear wheels loads stock and the V8 will move the weights over farther so all the weights you can save will help from an alum alloy heads, block, or even intakes!! it all adds up!!!!
I guess a lot of people didn't notice this, but my engine was moved over 2 3/8" to the left even though it wasn't necessary to do so.
Guess we'll just have to bring some portable four-point scales to the next big Fiero show. I have no idea why my silver GT weighed more than its spec curb weight, but remember that I was the one who posted that information for reference in the first place. I'm not inclined to believe manufacturer numbers as holy writ anyway, my point in posting them was for the relative differences between the models.
I'm just as interested in settling this debate as others are. I'd love to know what other stock '88 GT automatics and 5-spds actually weigh. So if you've got one and feel like helping out here, next time you're out on the interstate and see signs for a truck Weigh Station, drive on through with the big boys and ask them to give you your weight. The expression on their faces that you actually thought you had to stop at the weigh station to get weighed with the big trucks is worth the stop alone. I've done it myself and they've always had no problem doing it for me. Then weigh yourself and the junk you had in your car at the time (if you carry lots of it like I do), and subtract.
I guess you didn't read very closely what I wrote. You might want to read it again. SanBerdueFiero wasn't talking about a 914 and I wasn't either. I've seen those with SBCs too though.
I guess a lot of people didn't notice this, but my engine was moved over 2 3/8" to the left even though it wasn't necessary to do so.
Dave
I have owned a 914 and most of the parts swap with 911 bits so are priced the same brakes trans motor both front and rear sept 914 is a 911 mid-eng only real difference is the body shape all most all the parts are the same esp in the 916 later cars!!! btw my older brother raced 356's back in the 50's, and my dad had a 4camer bathtub speedter
part B or back to the fiero's weight bias you moved the motor =trans over so lessend the bias as did the kid with his mod-ed kit that he has side to side wheels load #'s much close to each other, or even than a stock V-6 # are thats both good idea and good work so a moved V8+trans has a better balance than a stock trans position V8 will
BTW I have a 88 setting in the garage waiting a V8 maybe 4.9 or N* unless I trip over a deal on a chevy al alloy block and heads
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
IP: Logged
11:50 PM
Nov 7th, 2002
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
the bigger deal than total weights are side to side differences thats where the V-8 swap will hurt you cornering, by haveing the weights over on the right side much higher then the left!!!!
Don't forget that the driver adds almost all of his weight to the left side of the car and most of it on the left rear tire. Maybe adding some right rear weight would balance out the car a bit?
One way to find out -- corner scales. It looks like Archie and I are both bringing a set to the 20th anniversary.
Anybody know if the old wives tale is true: 1000 lbs = 100 HP? In other words, a car that weighs 3000lbs w/ 200 HP run with a 4000lb w/ 300HP? True/False? OUT>
IP: Logged
12:39 AM
Borgio Member
Posts: 221 From: Kokomo, Indiana, USA Registered: Oct 2001
Anybody know if the old wives tale is true: 1000 lbs = 100 HP? In other words, a car that weighs 3000lbs w/ 200 HP run with a 4000lb w/ 300HP? True/False? [/IMG]
False. That can be true if you have 1000lbs per 100HP. Like a 2000lb car with 200HP, will "run with" a 3000lb car with 300HP, but a 3000lb car with 200HP, will lose to a 4000lb car with 300HP, in a straight line, theoretically, there are other variables though. It's about percentages, or ratios. Ever heard of weight to power ratio? That's what really matters for like 1/4 mile times and such.
Yes it is rather pathetic as Chester said, You can thank Howard and SanBerdue for that They seem to like to troll around looking for any reason at all to slam on Archie...... Ive wasted enough of Cliffs bandwidth on this dribble..Sorry Cliff but just bothers the hell out me when people talk out of there ass like that. ...
I really need to clear something up here..I am not out to slam Archie.. I really think that he is the formost expert on the SBC swap, and is deserving of any money that he is making off his experience with this swap..I do not doubt his integrity or his craftsmanship.. ( just his people skills... )
What I want to find out is true numbers that a SBC swap adds and the ONLY way is to document a before and after swap or by researching the weight of the parts and doing it mathmatically, not ballpark approximations. Cal Kid's post on factory tolerances said it very well.
I also am questioning the best location for the motor. Doug chase makes an excellent observation about driver location and when someone does a 4 corner weigh in, please include the driver and his weight.
And finally..I am not locked in to a SBC swap. There are other engine choices that are available. That is the beauty of the Fiero and what a Fiero discussion Forum is all about... BUT I only want to do a swap once..that is why I am asking all the questions now.. And to clue you in about me..I never grasp for straws.. I found out that you were driving a coupe..not a heavier GT ..THAT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE IN REAR WEIGHT, a big difference in total car weight too .. about 200 pounds worth..( I know that you added Iron to rebuild your frame so subtract the cut out parts and rust, and then add the weight of the material that you added and we are back to fuzzy math again) And add the weight of a SBC swap to your car again and that is what a GT weighs with this swap I do thank you all for taking the time to respond to my questions about your swaps. It is appreciated.
IP: Logged
08:45 AM
AndyLPhoto Member
Posts: 2418 From: Skandia, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2001
As far as accuracy goes I could see how someone could argue that a scale meant to weigh heavier weights could be in accurate, but Dave weighed two cars on the same scale that were around the same weight so if the scale was off it should be off equally. So the difference is correct.
Well, not necessarily. Let me preface this by saying that I don't own a V8, and don't forsee owning one in the near future. At the moment, lack of money and better gas mileage (4 cyl) are more important considerations. If I did, it would be for the fun of it, so weight wouldn't be a concern for me.
Now, regarding scale accuracy, this has been mentioned a couple times, but not elaborated on. Since Dave weighed his two cars on the same scale, his weights are accurate in respect to each other. However, each weight has some degree of potential inaccuracy based on the scale's resolution.
Someone mentioned 20 pound increments... that's the same increment as the scale at our local transfer station, so I'll assume that's common and use it as an example. Whether the scale is accurate or not, it can only resolve to within 20 pounds. On this hypothetical scale, ANY weight the scale reads will be a multiple of 20.
Now, as someone pointed out, when weighing two vehicles, this allows theoretically for a 40 pound discrepancy in the two weights. Say for example, the scale will read +/- 10 pounds of the listed weight. i.e. 91-110 pounds will read 100.
Now, let's use Dave's weights (for the sake of argument) 2960 and 2820. Keep in mind that I DO NOT KNOW the resolution of the scale he used, and I'm only using these 2 numbers for example because they are at hand.
If the resolution of the scale is 20 pounds, the ACTUAL weights could be 2970 and 2810, a difference of 160. Subract the 110 pounds of weight differential Dave notes, and that's a gain of 50.
It's also important to note that it could work the other way...the weights could actually be 2950 and 2830, a difference of 120 pounds. Subtract the 110 pounds as above, and you have a gain of only 10 pounds.
At these weights, a 20 pound resolution isn't bad. But what I'm pointing out is that the accuracy (resolution) of the scales comes into play, especially comparing 2 weights that are this close.
Now, the chances of one car being right at the bottom of the cutoff and the other right at the top are slim, but the point is, that with this scale, the most accurate weight you can guarantee is within 20 pounds.
Basically what it amounts to is that for some people, this is accurate enough, while some people will not be satisfied with the result. If you had a scale that resolved to five pounds, some people would probably point out that these aren't really accurate numbers because they could be 10 pounds off between 2 cars.
Whatever, this has been interesting reading! In the meantime, I'm happy with my Duke.
(edited to remove a redundancy)
------------------
1984 Sport Coupe
[This message has been edited by AndyLPhoto (edited 11-07-2002).]
IP: Logged
09:02 AM
AndyLPhoto Member
Posts: 2418 From: Skandia, MI, USA Registered: Nov 2001
I really need to clear something up here..I am not out to slam Archie..
What I want to find out is true numbers that a SBC swap adds and the ONLY way is to document a before and after swap or by researching the weight of the parts and doing it mathmatically, not ballpark approximations.
So the only thing you're going to be happy with is an itemized list of every part added and removed during a swap, plus the car's original weight? That's not going to happen. No one's going to that much trouble to satisfy curiosity. Archie did it the simple way. He weighed a car before the swap, then weighed the same car after the swap. Going from a 4 cylinder to an iron head 350 added about 160lbs, if I remember correctly. He even scanned and posted the actual weight slips on here - several times. But that's not good enough.
If that doesn't meet your expectations for what's "good enough" (or anyone else's), then I respectfully sumbit it's impossible for ANYONE to give you weights you're going to be happy with. Even if someone weighed every single nut and bolt, or each part assembly individually, then you could argue the accuracy of the scale to weigh the parts, and that error would add up over the number of parts weighed. That method is much less accurate than weighing the entire car, but you've said that's not good enough.
I don't think you'd accept any reported weights for a 350 swap that disagree with your expectations, even if YOU built the car and weighed it yourself.
IP: Logged
03:16 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5542 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
.. I found out that you were driving a coupe..not a heavier GT ..THAT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE IN REAR WEIGHT, a big difference in total car weight too .. about 200 pounds worth...
Maybe I read this wrong, But are you saying a GT weighs 200lbs more? How so? The major difference between the GT and a notchback is just the rear clip. Most SE's already have the bumpers, ground Fx, etc. The fastback clip does not weigh much more than a notchback clip. Same with Decklid, etc. I have picked up many of them.
Does anyone have the actual difference from GT and notchback rear clip assembly?
------------------ Two 88FORMULAS Red & Yellow SSFiero@Aol.com
)the more weight on the back end the more cornering is impacted at the edge... look at old Porche 911's VS new ones... 
