quote Originally posted by AndyLPhoto: Now, regarding scale accuracy, this has been mentioned a couple times, but not elaborated on.

I wanted to mention something here that people aren't considering. If a scale has an accuracy of +/- 20lbs, then yes, 100lbs could be anywhere from 80 - 120 lbs.

Now, if you took a calibrated weight and checked the scale and found that when it read 100lbs, the true weight is only 90lbs, then you know the error. If you put 100lbs on the scale, it's probably going to read 110lbs. The error of the scale doesn't change each time you weigh something.

What I'm getting at is even if you don't know the error of the scales, they aren't going to change dramatically. If it's reading 20lbs heavy on one weight, it's not going to suddenly read 20lbs light on the next. The error will be similar for both weights. So the weight DIFFERENCE will be fairly accurate.

There's are engineering terms for this. It's the difference between precision and accuracy.

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: California kid got lucky and got one of the kits that worked

Was no luck about it at all, the kit was heavily modified by a couple of good Fiero guru's in CA. I researched, talked to them, and they put me in touch with the owner (who might sell) of the car that they converted per his specs. It was a professional job sparing no expense, that's why I bought it, instead of converting one of the two I owned at the time (I was in a hurry to have some fun <big grin> ). I was only lucky to come across a great former professional racer, who is wealthy, had too many toys, and just wanted it to go to a good home for further improvements.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 11-07-2002).]

Gee, wonder why my 87 GT tipped the scales at 4150 ?

Oh yeah, that was including the trailer.

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www.centralfloridafieros.com/Coolblue87GT.htm

[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 11-07-2002).]

quote Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: Maybe I read this wrong, But are you saying a GT weighs 200lbs more? How so? The major difference between the GT and a notchback is just the rear clip. Most SE's already have the bumpers, ground Fx, etc. The fastback clip does not weigh much more than a notchback clip. Same with Decklid, etc. I have picked up many of them. Does anyone have the actual difference from GT and notchback rear clip assembly?

This is from CrazyD's first post.. I read that was almost 200 lbs..Sorry that I wasn't exact..but I tend to round off.. the math between an 85 GT and a newer GT is gt is about 130 lbs

"For reference, here are the rated curb weights of all Fiero models from 1984-88:

code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..1984 Coupe/SC 2464
..1984 SE 2480
..1985 Coupe/SC/SE 2505
..1985 GT 2572
..1986 Coupe/SC 2504
..1986 SE 2531
..1986 GT 2696
..1987 Coupe/SC 2546
..1987 SE 2567
..1987 GT 2708
..1988 Coupe 2547
..1988 GT 2735

---------------------------------------------"

And for what it is worth if someone went to the trouble to take a Fish Scale for a big marlin, and hooked it to the cherry picker, weighed the removed cradle and engine/ transaxle..and then attached it to the cradle going in - with the new engine same transaxle exhaust on or off - just make it fair.. I would be satisfied with the difference between the two.

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-07-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: if someone went to the trouble to take a Fish Scale for a big marlin, and hooked it to the cherry picker, weighed the removed cradle and engine/ transaxle..and then attached it to the cradle going in - with the new engine same transaxle exhaust on or off - just make it fair.. I would be satisfied with the difference between the two.

I don't understand this. This isn't an attempt at a flame, either. What's your obsession with wanting just the cradle or individual parts weights? What matters more: the weight of a pile of parts, or the weight of the completed vehicle? You want someone to weigh their cradle with a fish scale? Are you listening to how crazy this sounds?

You've lost me here. And I, for one, was never interested in "satisfying" you anyway. I guess you're going to have to live your life unsatisfied and content with your opinions about 350 weight and never know if you're right or wrong, because you refuse to look at the data.

Has anyone here with a V6 swap done a before and after weight comparison? I'd like to see it.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Sorry that I wasn't exact..but I tend to round off..

This comming from the guy who wants EXACT numbers of what was removed, what was added

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 11-07-2002).]

SanBerdueFiero has been shot so many times, I'm surprised he's still alive.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 11-08-2002).]

All this over 110 pounds? The weight of a skinny passenger? Sheesh, I've had nearly that much weight in the trunk of my stocker '88 GT, plus a passenger, and the handling was still better than 98% of the cars on the road.
If you guys that are sweating it that much think it really matters, take out the passenger seat, HVAC stuff, and drop in twice as much horsepower!
Me, I listen to people that have the SBC setup and DRIVE IT, people like CD, Archie, California Kid, and Jelly... the people who pontificate without having the experience are just "wannabes" with no substance or real-life experience to back up their claims.
Chris
Stock as a rock '88 GT
Archiefied TPI '85 SE

[This message has been edited by exspook (edited 11-07-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Now, if you took a calibrated weight and checked the scale and found that when it read 100lbs, the true weight is only 90lbs, then you know the error. If you put 100lbs on the scale, it's probably going to read 110lbs. The error of the scale doesn't change each time you weigh something.

No, it won't. If you put 100 pounds on the scale, it will read 100, assuming the scale in my example that will resolve to 20 pounds. Any weight from 90-110 will read as 100.

You are correct in saying the error won't change. The "error" in this example, would be if the scale read 100 for values of 98-118 pounds, instead of from 90-110, like it should. This "error" will be consistent from load to load, and relative weights can be compared.

I'm not talking about the error, but the *accuracy*--commonly 20 pounds. It's not pure coincidence that all 4 weights posted here (2 from Dave, 2 from Archie) happen to be exact multiples of 20. The scale just isn't accurate enough to read within a pound. What I'm saying is that ANY weight you place on the scale will read as a multiple of 20.

quote What I'm getting at is even if you don't know the error of the scales, they aren't going to change dramatically. If it's reading 20lbs heavy on one weight, it's not going to suddenly read 20lbs light on the next. The error will be similar for both weights. So the weight DIFFERENCE will be fairly accurate.

Yes..."fairly" accurate, based on the resolution of the scale. This is what I was trying to explain in my first post. If the scale can only resolve to +/- 20 pounds (your number--I used +/- 10 pounds) then, anything from 80-120 pounds will read 100. So...If you place an 81 pound weight on the scale, it will read 100. If you place a 119 pound weight on the scale, it will read 100. Thus, you would be led to believe that the two are equal, when in fact, one weights 38 pounds more than the other.

Again...note that the 4 weight slip numbers posted earlier in this thread are all exact multiples of 20. I took a load of junk to the transfer station last month. "Coincidentally," when I checked in, my weight was an exact multiple of 20, as it was when I checked out. Every time I go, I just *happen* do drop off junk in exact multiples of 20 pounds.

On a smaller scale, (no pun intended,) say you have a digital bathroom scale. Every number it reads is a whole pound. That makes it pretty useless for weighing a piece of mail. You need to know how many OUNCES it weighs so you can affix postage. Now, whether the letter weighs 2, 3, 4, 12, or 15 ounces, the scale is going to read either "0" or "1" because it can't resolve anything smaller than 1 pound increments. That make sense? A truck scale is the same way, but it reads 20 pound increments.

To get exact weights, what you could do would be to put a car on the scale, then add weight in one pound increments until it rolls over to the next increment. Do this for 2 cars, then subtract the weight you added to each, and you'd have a far more accurate weight relative to each other.

quote Originally posted by exspook: All this over 110 pounds? The weight of a skinny passenger? Sheesh, I've had nearly that much weight in the trunk of my stocker '88 GT, plus a passenger, and the handling was still better than 98% of the cars on the road. If you guys that are sweating it that much think it really matters, take out the passenger seat, HVAC stuff, and drop in twice as much horsepower! Me, I listen to people that have the SBC setup and DRIVE IT, people like CD, Archie, California Kid, and Jelly... the people who pontificate without having the experience are just "wannabes" with no substance or real-life experience to back up their claims. Chris Stock as a rock '88 GT Archiefied TPI '85 SE [This message has been edited by exspook (edited 11-07-2002).]

You calling me skinny?

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Fierosite - Your Number One Resource for Fiero websites

Dave: I'm not posting to disagree with your findings or to find fault with your project but the numbers don't seem to add up.
If you look it up, a std. Small block Chevy engine has a listed weight of 575 lbs. The V6 is listed at 350 lbs. That's a 225 lb delta. Now if you have an aluminum block or aluminum block/head SBC I can believe the small difference. Just some food for thought.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I don't understand this. This isn't an attempt at a flame, either. What's your obsession with wanting just the cradle or individual parts weights? What matters more: the weight of a pile of parts, or the weight of the completed vehicle? You want someone to weigh their cradle with a fish scale? Are you listening to how crazy this sounds? You've lost me here. And I, for one, was never interested in "satisfying" you anyway. I guess you're going to have to live your life unsatisfied and content with your opinions about 350 weight and never know if you're right or wrong, because you refuse to look at the data. Has anyone here with a V6 swap done a before and after weight comparison? I'd like to see it.

no flame here either.. I will talk real slow..can you read my lips???
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IN WEIGHT BETWEEN A STOCK V6 AND A CAST IRON HEAD SBC IS.. AND ALSO THE WEIGHT OF AN LT1 VS A STOCK V6 TOO..

A FISH SCALE READS THE WEIGHT OF A BIG FISH THAT IS IN THE SAME RANGE AS THESE ENGINES. ( read: it registers the amount that is needed to weigh it)
IF ONE REMOVES A COMPLETE CRADLE TO SWAP IN A SBC AND NEEDS TO PUT IT BACK INTO THE CAR TO COMPLETE THE SWAP.. THAT WILL TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO KNOW.... ( no ifs ands or buts.. no fuzzy math.. no tool boxes in the trunk, or french fries under the seat, or toes on the scale..)

Now I hope that you understand that removing other parts from the car is compensating for the extra weight added by the swap.. so..how much ..and what parts need to be removed to bring it back into a stock configuration is my next step after I get some accurate figures..

Now to recap..all you people who put a SBC into a coupe have no issues with weight as you are still within the parameters of what an 86.5+ GT weighs.. DO you understand what I said here??

IF you do this swap into a coupe..the added weight is not an issue.. BUT I am dealing with a newer GT in my world..so IT MATTERS as the extra weight is on the rear end. We all have no problem with Hugh removing his longitudinal autotrans swap as it put too much weight on the rear and he stated that it handled like crap ..so at some point there is such a thing of adding too much weight to the rear end..

NOW to add to the issues I found someone who is stating that the Northstar weighs as much or more than an LS1 does.. So IS this swap is on equal footing as far as weight goes..??

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-08-2002).]

Well, I think you're SOL, there, guy. Anyone who's going to do a SBC swap isn't likely to be as critical about the weights to take the time to weigh the cradle before and after. Let alone go to the trouble to get a fish scale and bring it to the garage.

But if you do a SBC swap, please do. It'll satisfy your curiosity, and you can post the info here for everyone to disagree with.

So, are you planning on doing a SBC swap?

------------------
--------------Forever In My Heart----------------
Jack Daniel Miller --- Dec. 29, 1925 - Oct. 14, 2002
Ruby Cantrell Miller - Jan. 20, 1932 - Aug. 31, 2002
It won't rain all the time. The Sky won't fall forever,
And tho' the night seems long, Your tears won't fall forever.

quote Originally posted by Archie: I'll probally borrow a set locally by then though.

Well I've decided not to get a set of the 4 wheel race car type scales.

I've decided to buy 4 Fish Scales instead.

I've also decided that when I post up the weighing results, I'll be rounding everything over 130 lbs. up to 200 lbs.

After all I want everything to be precise here.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Formula88: ... So, are you planning on doing a SBC swap?

I am asking these questions to decide if I WANT to put in a SBC ( into an 86+ GT).. ..You thought that I was taking all this time to just chat?? And why do I have to repeat myself over and over..If I ask the question again, it means that there was something wrong with the answer that was given.. If someone doesn't know the answer..why go on tangents? We covered the mods that have to be done for better handling of this weight in other posts.. I would prefer to take off some weight and leave the suspension stock.. the question is how much weight needs to be removed and then is the cost of the swap worth doing to me.. I am not reinventing the wheel here just asking if anyone has taken the trouble or has better info than I have found..

So..how much weight does this swap add???..I am not blasting everyone or anyone..Just asking what I want to know, I gave my findings on this topic but everyone seems to be saying I am wrong, that it is not true, but not backing up their statements with anything that I can logically accept.
to repeat again ..I have found sites on line that say ..
1) A cast iron head SBC weights 575 lbs..true or false? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?)
2) An aluminum head SBC weighs 525 lbs..true or false? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?)
3) What is the weight of an LT1?(If you answer, then where did your info come from and is it documented?)
4) An LS1 weighs 460 lbs..true or false?? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?)
5) A stock 2.8 weighs 350 lbs..true or false?? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?)

and that is that... on to bigger and better things...

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: you really are pathetic.. A coupe weighs 200 lbs more than a newer GT does .... I found out that I was looking at the wrong car and corrected what I said.. AND ..your post was worthless.. I asked you to post the actual weight that this swap adds onto your web site and stand behind it.. so..put up..or.... [This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-08-2002).]

This chit is getting funnier by the post...And this approach will REALLY get you the answers you seek
I'm fitting my SBC into my GT this weekend. Do you honestly think that I'd take the time to get ??FISH SCALES?? just to prove something to you? I mean this has been beaten to death in this post. If you don't believe what you see or what some have tried to answer - GO DO IT YOURSELF! Personally if I was done with my conversion, the last thing on my mind would be to sit here and try to convince you what the weight gain was - I'd be out ENJOYING MY V8! Take what you hear in this thread, add your own logic and draw your own conclusion.

Rob D.

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No motor - Soon to be a bottle fed 383 V8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org

quote Originally posted by Archie: Well I've decided not to get a set of the 4 wheel race car type scales. I've decided to buy 4 Fish Scales instead.

Dude...LOL!

Now to be more specefic Archie, 4 fish scales probably dont weigh more that a gram or two.... and probably depends on the kind of fish. Also, the fish might be unhappy that you are trying to remove its scales. Hard to hold onto the sucker, unless it's dead of course.

SanBerdue, you need to STFU! You act like people NEED to answer to you. Go do your own damn swap and weigh everything yourself. IF you want to find out the weight difference between a V6 head and a V8 head, then go find out. You act like Archie and others NEED to answer to you. Dumbass....

quote Originally posted by chester: This chit is getting funnier by the post...And this approach will REALLY get you the answers you seek I'm fitting my SBC into my GT this weekend. Do you honestly think that I'd take the time to get ??FISH SCALES?? just to prove something to you? I mean this has been beaten to death in this post. If you don't believe what you see or what some have tried to answer - GO DO IT YOURSELF! Personally if I was done with my conversion, the last thing on my mind would be to sit here and try to convince you what the weight gain was - I'd be out ENJOYING MY V8! Take what you hear in this thread, add your own logic and draw your own conclusion. Rob D.

funny..but your answer is acceptable to me..you don't care what your swap weighs and are not going to take any time to find out.. that is ok with me..

quote Originally posted by UFO!: SanBerdue, you need to STFU! You act like people NEED to answer to you. Go do your own damn swap and weigh everything yourself. IF you want to find out the weight difference between a V6 head and a V8 head, then go find out. You act like Archie and others NEED to answer to you. Dumbass....

not the head ..the whole engine....
and your post speaks for itself.. if you don't want to answer my questions ..then don't

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: And why do I have to repeat myself over and over..If I ask the question again, it means that there was something wrong with the answer that was given..

Why do we have to give the answer over and over? Because "there was something wrong with the answer" ? Just provide your own answers from now on. People aren't going to jump through hoops to placate you. I'd guess Archie couldn't care less if you buy a V8 kit from him or not, so do your own research, come up with your own questions, and find your own answers. You're not happy with the anwers anyone on here will give anyway.

Personally, I'm planning an engine swap, and I have all the info I need to make my decision.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: 1) A cast iron head SBC weights 575 lbs..true or false? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?) 2) An aluminum head SBC weighs 525 lbs..true or false? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?)

I just made a phone call the the Local GM performance shop, figured what the hell. I asked if they had the weights of 5.7 crate motors. They told me the shipping weights minus the crate. 5.7 Ram Jet with Iron heads were 515 lbs (includes MPFI intake, water pump and Dist.) the Fast burn 5.7 with aluminum heads,Intake and water pump was 458 lbs mini starters add about 13 lbs. Just repeating what they told me.

Oh, GM must be wrong. 350's are heavier than that! Besides, how would they know for sure? Have you EVER seen a GM dealership with fish scales?

quote Originally posted by GMGW3: I just made a phone call the the Local GM performance shop, figured what the hell. I asked if they had the weights of 5.7 crate motors. They told me the shipping weights minus the crate. 5.7 Ram Jet with Iron heads were 515 lbs (includes MPFI intake, water pump and Dist.) the Fast burn 5.7 with aluminum heads,Intake and water pump was 458 lbs mini starters add about 13 lbs. Just repeating what they told me.

They should know... It goes along with what I thought.. I read that new SBC engines had gone under a weight reduction plan a few years ago and this bears it out.. thank you for providing this info..

If I read this right I should factor in the weight of the oil pan (oil pump???) and headers too??

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: funny..but your answer is acceptable to me..you don't care what your swap weighs and are not going to take any time to find out.. that is ok with me..

Actually, Dave’s method works for me I have a few other cars for comparison, but since my build involves more weight wise then just the iron headed 383 stroker (full dynamat and a 2500 watt audio/video system) I want the true weight difference overall between a stock GT and mine.

Rob D.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: [QUOTE] If I read this right I should factor in the weight of the oil pan (oil pump???) and headers too??

Nope, they come with everything including harmonic balancer, except headers. But Sanderson shorty headers for Fieros dont weigh much at all.

[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 11-08-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: If I read this right I should factor in the weight of the oil pan (oil pump???) and headers too??

Here ya go, this should be right up your alley!!! This conversion will put your gross weight right where you want it! Caution: might affect performance and handling!!!

Ya know, now that Shaun4354875945.5436474/2356353543-01 is gone, I believe we found our new official TROLL!

Have fun with this tread, I'm done looking in here.

CrazyD posted weights that should satisfy just about anybody, but that wasn't enough.

Even once a SBC Fiero is weighed the way the TROLL wants, it still won't be enough.

There are so many IDIOTS on this Forum lately, I'm ready to call it quits.

Have fun, I'm gonna go in my overweight, dinosaur era powerplant that cant keep a clutch nor its transaxle handle the power, or the axles or keep the axles from breaking, oversteering, under-engineered, frame chopping, gas guzzling, overheating ( HAVE I MISSED ANY MORE OF THESE MYTHS?)Fiero for a drive while I smile and enjoy it, laughing at you poor dumb kunts that just don't have a faking clue.

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1988GT T-Tops, 5spd, Loaded

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: 4) An LS1 weighs 460 lbs..true or false?? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?) 5) A stock 2.8 weighs 350 lbs..true or false?? (If you answer false then where did your info come from and is it documented?)

Hmm, an LS1 is aluminum block and aluminum head with a composite intake manifold and it only weighs a few pounds less than an Iron block SBC with aluminum heads? Now supposedly the Northstar weights only a bit more than the 2.8, so The LS1 which as all aluminum like the northstar yet doesnt have huge heads, 4 cams and is overall much smaller than the N* weighs about 100lbs +/- more? I could be wrong on the weight of the N* but ive heard that a few times. If this is true then how is it possible?

BTW we just got sone putting a Wieand Tunnel Ram with dual Holley 950's on the chevelle, also billet valve covers,new timeing chain cover bolts, painted the engine and engine bay, installing the new master cylinder, chrome alternator and bittlet alternator bracket. Estimate horsepower is around 750 out of the 496 not built to its full potential (naturally aspirated) Its not a small block chevy but id love to have this heavy beast (does have Dart Aluminum head though) in the back of my GT (longitudinally of course) despite any weight because it would kick total ass

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--Adam--
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
IM AOL: GTFiero
Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs

remember, Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: ...Now supposedly the Northstar weights only a bit more than the 2.8...

look at this and make up your own mind..
http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/enginescadillac.html

-----------------------
Used in the '97 - up Corvette and Camaro/Firebird, this latest generation 346 cu/in design retains the same engine mount locations and bellhousing bolt pattern that is common to all 90 degree V-6 and V-8 small block Chevys. The aluminum Y-block design features 3mm thick iron liners and 6 bolt main caps, a crossbolt design. The aluminum heads used have a different bolt pattern, with each bore surrounded with 4 headbolts instead of the traditional 5. The oil pan is made of cast aluminum, and is availiable in many styles, from the shallow Corvette baffled and gated "wing" design, to the deep sump truck version. The oil pan is a stressed member, with some of the bellhousing bolts threading directly into the oil pan. The oil filter mount is cast into the oil pan, and the oil pump is a front mounted and driven gerotor design. (click here to go to a page showing the different LS1 pans as presented by TunedPort.com). There is no distributor as was traditional on earlier small blocks, as the LS-1 uses a direct fire ignition, with a seperate coil for each cylinder. The intake manifold is of a tuned length multi-port, sequential fuel injected, composite design, uses a single 75mm throttle body, and has no directly connected throttle linkage. A serpentine belt system drives the water pump and accessories. The cooling system is similar in flow to the GEN I, and uses a distribution system to direct the coolant first to the block, thru the heads, then to a new design mixing thermostat before being returned to the radiator. The results are 345 hp with 350 ft/lbs of torque, with a 6200 rpm fuel cutoff. 100lbs lighter than the LT-1, the long block weighs 397lbs.

Critical dimensions for the all aluminum LS-1 are:
25" from the bottom of the oil pan to the top of the intake manifold.
28" from the rear surface of the block to the tip of the water pump.
26" wide with stock exhaust manifolds.
460 lbs. total weight for the stock LS-1 (including ALL accessories and stock exhaust manifolds).
http://www.grannysspeedshop.com/

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[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-08-2002).]

Oh dang, all this means my aluminum block 2.8 with gen 2 heads and ministarter it so light that my Fiero is now nose heavy? All the effort I expended to get a balanced car is now ruined. Darn darn darn, guess I need a small block.

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: Hmm, an LS1 is aluminum block and aluminum head with a composite intake manifold and it only weighs a few pounds less than an Iron block SBC with aluminum heads? Now supposedly the Northstar weights only a bit more than the 2.8, so The LS1 which as all aluminum like the northstar yet doesnt have huge heads, 4 cams and is overall much smaller than the N* weighs about 100lbs +/- more? I could be wrong on the weight of the N* but ive heard that a few times. If this is true then how is it possible?

Hold on a second there sport, now you're starting to sound like Dennis LaGrua with that shallow thinking. This is the same thinking that leads one to assume that because there's more room in the same trans housing for 4 gears instead of 5 that obviously a 4-speed must be stronger. Fact is that the LS1 has a substnatially heavier (and stronger) bottom end. 6-bolt mains, remember? A lot of the weight savings in all the top-end stuff was to compensate for the added weight on the bottom. I talked about this over six months ago in another thread.

By the way LaGrua, your comments here are not welcomed or appreciated any more than trollboy SanBerdue. I took the time, money and trouble to equalize and weigh my two essentially identical cars, and posted every relevant bit of comparison data I could think of here to add to the small collective body of information on this swap. With the money I wasted to start this thread I could've bought two six-packs of Octoberfest, which in retrospect would've been a better way to go. I expected it to start a little trouble, but I am awful sick of hearing people say it's not enough. Believe it or don't, it doesn't matter to me, if you want it done more comprehensively than that go DO IT YOUR FREAKIN' SELF, or ante up the cash for me or someone else to take the time and trouble to do it your way. I know what a good-handling car feels like, my ass is sensitive enough to tell when my tire pressure is off by a few pounds, and I have no complaints, issues or otherwise with the handling of my car. It's stellar, and absolutely uncompromised by the V8. I have been driving it every day for a month and a half now, crossed 5000 miles already, and have driven it in numerous harsh rainstorms in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey. At no time was it squirrely or difficult to manage, which is more than I can say of even my Corvette. When it rains, the traction control goes on and stays on in that car. In case you haven't seen the videos, I don't drive this or any of my cars gently, and it is just incredible how well it behaves in spite of a tripling in power output. If that doesn't seem possible to you, then continue in your world of ignorance but leave the rest of us out of it.

Dave

I don't know guys, I can easially feel *ON THE STREET* it when I have 40 lbs of bags in the trunk...

On the track, do 50lbs matter? DAMN RIGHT they matter! I'm a full *5 seconds* slower with a 170lb passanger around the local 2.52mile road course. That's slow enough to stop being competative at all anymore.

On the street, with just 40lbs again... I can feel the rear get squirely in third gear a little sooner. (and I have halfway decent rubber 265 pzeros.)

Gas dosen't seem to affect the charistericts of the car, but it does have a noticable impact on ultimate grip (less so than bags though) and I can definately feel it get faster in a straight line with 1/4tank.

The Fiero is SO sensative to balance of weights (not so much absolutel weight, but just a little off on the ends can *really* affect things.)

The comments on passangers: you BET they change the charestiricts of the car! I can feel one guy in my Fiero, and I sure can feel 4 in the "other car".)

I will take any "double blind" (will have to be open eyes, and put lead on the floor.) test on this, anyitme. And I wil tell you every time. And I will be right.

PS: Yeah Dave, the 911 GT1 Even Porsche aparently considers mid-engine the ultimate race <and homolog street-going for the ultra-rich> layout ) ) )

PPS: Thanks for providing proof that it's not nearly as bad as everyone says, hell, even I drive on the track with a passanger, so just deal everyone! Gut the car if you must, and install coilovers, go on with life.

PPPS: Formula88: "Your Mother was a Hamster, and your Father smelt of Elderberry!"

Best!
Ben,

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Has Porsche ever made a mid-engined 911? Does a rear-engine car have the same handling dynamics as a mid-engine car? Answer: No. Okay, glad we got that cleared up, please return to your rock, SanBerdufus. Dave

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 11-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 11-09-2002).]

WOW! This is the best thread since that last 4-cyl. vs. V6 debate!

You know, I actually reduced the weight of my Fiero by getting all of the leaves out of it. It weighs 1478 lbs. now. I figure with the weight it lost, I can do that cast iron steam engine swap I've been wanting to do. Pardon me, boys, is that the Chattanooga Fiero?

WooooooWoooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!

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87' Fiero GT 5-spd
84' Fiero SE 2m4 4-spd SOLD

quote Originally posted by artherd: I don't know guys, I can easially feel *ON THE STREET* it when I have 40 lbs of bags in the trunk...

Hang on a sec here. In case you hadn't noticed, your trunk is on the other side of the axles from the engine. You're comparing rear-chassis weight to mid-chassis weight Ben, for shame! People love to use this comparison, but it just doesn't fly.

And as to your other points about weight on a road course, sure it matters when all other factors are equal, but ask yourself, wouldn't you rather compete with a car that has 110 lbs more engine weight but also has three times the power? This seems like a no-brainer to me.

Dave