quote Originally posted by crazyd: I took the time, money and trouble to equalize and weigh my two essentially identical cars, and posted every relevant bit of comparison data I could think of here to add to the small collective body of information on this swap. With the money I wasted to start this thread I could've bought two six-packs of Octoberfest, which in retrospect would've been a better way to go. Dave

Well, I'll speak up on behalf of what I think is the silent majority that appreciate your efforts. Thanks!

I've never seriously considered a SBC swap because I accepted the "it'll kill the handling" argument. This post has made me seriously reconsider. What else will give the same kind of power as a stock LT1 without the weight? A Northstar is close but so far I don't see anyone running one with a 5 speed sucessfully, mostly because of the electronics. A 94-95 LT1 PCM is probably one of the most hacked PCMs out there, I can't imagine it being that hard to get it running right in a Fiero. It's starting to sound like it would be easier to compensate for any weight problems than to deal with getting any other powertrain running right.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Hang on a sec here. In case you hadn't noticed, your trunk is on the other side of the axles from the engine. You're comparing rear-chassis weight to mid-chassis weight Ben, for shame! People love to use this comparison, but it just doesn't fly. .... Dave

Quite the contrary.. your statement further shows that you are not too smart..

First you weigh one car... then you weigh a totally different car and keep on stating that it is a scientific ..accurate way of proving how much your swap weighs..

Then when someone points out the flaw in your logic ( the 20 lb variable on a grain scale/ Cal Kid explaining the tolerances in production )..you still state that it is accurate... No one twisted your arm to do it that way, it was your Idea.. just a dumb one.. now go get drunk and talk into your beer..
Now .. Listen close..school is in session..the engine/transaxle is not a true midpoint for the Fiero as it is over the rear wheels / slightly forward of them . so adding forty lbs to the trunk is about the same as adding 110 to the engine /transaxle spot. In fact because it is lower (the bottom of the trunk) it will not affect the handling as much as cast iron heads do..
...

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Quite the contrary.. your statement further shows that you are not too smart.. First you weigh one car... then you weigh a totally different car and keep on stating that it is a scientific ..accurate way of proving how much your swap weighs.. Then when someone points out the flaw in your logic ( the 20 lb variable on a grain scale/ Cal Kid explaining the tolerances in production )..you still state that it is accurate... No one twisted your arm to do it that way, it was your Idea.. just a dumb one.. now go get drunk and talk into your beer.. Now .. Listen close..school is in session..the engine/transaxle is not a true midpoint for the Fiero as it is over the rear wheels / slightly forward of them . so adding forty lbs to the trunk is about the same as adding 110 to the engine /transaxle spot. In fact because it is lower (the bottom of the trunk) it will not affect the handling as much as cast iron heads do.. ...

Wow....ATTENTION! ATTENTION!...we have now stooped to a low point in the thread and have resorted to attacking peoples intellect. What’s next? I think Dave’s version of your nick, SanBerDufus, is starting to look better by the post. Ah, and I have to call to your last statement. But hell, it's Saturday!! I'm off to get my 10 ton crane to fit my SBC today.. ROFLMAO!

Rob D.

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 11-09-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Quite the contrary.. your statement further shows that you are not too smart.. First you weigh one car... then you weigh a totally different car and keep on stating that it is a scientific ..accurate way of proving how much your swap weighs.. Then when someone points out the flaw in your logic ( the 20 lb variable on a grain scale/ Cal Kid explaining the tolerances in production )..you still state that it is accurate... No one twisted your arm to do it that way, it was your Idea.. just a dumb one.. now go get drunk and talk into your beer.. Now .. Listen close..school is in session..the engine/transaxle is not a true midpoint for the Fiero as it is over the rear wheels / slightly forward of them . so adding forty lbs to the trunk is about the same as adding 110 to the engine /transaxle spot. In fact because it is lower (the bottom of the trunk) it will not affect the handling as much as cast iron heads do.. ...

I'm sorry, but somebody has to let you in on the news.......

THE NEWS IS IN... BERDUFUSS IS AN IDIOT!!

You rag on people for precise measurements then you say that adding 40 lbs in one place is about the same as 110 lbs in another place.

You want precise total before and after measurements, then you mention that someone doing a swap should measure the parts going into and out of the car with a fish scale.

You talk about using fish scales, then rag on Dave for adjusting the total weight of his car by the actual weight of extra items he had in the car at the time.

In another thread, you say "Now back to the weight issue.. I am not going to address this issue ever again" Then you turn right around and post the same crap to this thread a day later.

You've seen virtually everyone on PFF tell you that you are full of it, yet you think that beating the same old horse is going to somehow turn everyone around to your beliefs.

You try to convince people that you are asking questions that deserve to be answered. You sit behind your keyboard and troll PFF for people to rag on. You think you deserve answers yet you won't even tell your name.

In this thread, after you've called people every name you can think of, you swear that you're going to quit flaming. Yet, you still are still using statements like "your statement further shows that you are not too smart" and others.

I like Cliff's rating system. You can go on there and have a say in what you think of people. I'm sure many people have already given you the 'ol Negative rating. The only thing that can be done to improve Cliff's rating system of Positive, Neutral & Negative is to add "Total Idiot" to the choices.

When you respond to this post, respond to everything I've said. Not just the one or two lines you can think of a clever response for.

BTW, have you ever actually read anything you've written before you post it? Just try reading it so that it don't conflict with other things you've written. Or you might even read it to see if you are sounding like a IDIOT.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-09-2002).]

quote Originally posted by chester: Wow....ATTENTION! ATTENTION!...we have now stooped to a low point in the thread and have resorted to attacking peoples intellect...

What I dont get is he seemed to accept the weights I supplied from GM performace. If you do the math 458 from 340 (v6 weight) puts the swap weight gain of Daves engine swap right in the same range of what he got, 118 lbs. and figuring the factor of what Cali Kid explained about variance from one car to another. So now where back at square one. Daves slips seem to be accurate. If it were up to me I would have banned SanBerdu's IP already this is totall crap whats he's trying to pull with the Forum.

[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 11-09-2002).]

...if this Thread were a snowball rolling down a hill... i would say that the hill is Mt. Evrest and the snowball is becoming building proportions with lots of trees/rocks/climbers protruding from all sides as it rolls... *poof-squish, has been sucked in*

...i think the cig lighter in the 87-88 GT's is needlessly heavier than earlier models, perhaps an aluminum one would make a difference, or moving it to the passenger side of the console

------------------
Monkey
"No matter where I go...There's my car"

87 T-Top GT 2.8/5-spd
87 Hardtop GT 2.8/5-spd
97 Trans-AM WS6 6-spd
91 V8 Monster Miata
69 Mustang Coupe 302 4spd

quote Originally posted by GMGW3: I just made a phone call the the Local GM performance shop, figured what the hell. I asked if they had the weights of 5.7 crate motors. They told me the shipping weights minus the crate. 5.7 Ram Jet with Iron heads were 515 lbs (includes MPFI intake, water pump and Dist.) the Fast burn 5.7 with aluminum heads,Intake and water pump was 458 lbs mini starters add about 13 lbs. Just repeating what they told me.

I accepted your post stating what you found out from "Some Guy" from "Some Place" as being true...
But I wondered why you didn't ask the weight of a crate 3.4, but decided to let it go as you tried to find out something positive, and called someone who might be able to give apple to apple weights..
So the next logical question was what does a 2.8 weigh in the same state as what you are saying is true..
But when you stated that the oil pan came with it I started to wonder about your whole story.. Every application of any SBC uses an oil pan that is for that application only. ..In my past experience the oil pan was always left off when the engine was slated for many different applications.. Now I bet that all you who ordered a crate 3.4 got an oil pan.. well that engine was only approved for a truck application so the oil pan was not an issue with that.
So to recap..what does a 2.8 weigh in the same state as your info stated that the SBC weighs

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: I accepted your post stating what you found out from "Some Guy" from "Some Place" as being true... But I wondered why you didn't ask the weight of a crate 3.4, but decided to let it go as you tried to find out something positive, and called someone who might be able to give apple to apple weights.. So the next logical question was what does a 2.8 weigh in the same state as what you are saying is true.. But when you stated that the oil pan came with it I started to wonder about your whole story.. Every application of any SBC uses an oil pan that is for that application only. ..In my past experience the oil pan was always left off when the engine was slated for many different applications..

Nice try with the double talk...GM performance crate motors come with pans ect,'YOUR" the one that asked if that was including the oil pan / pump. SO I answered.. go look it up. duh. All your doing is just pissing everyone off. Just do us all a favor and go away.

[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 11-09-2002).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Archie:

I'm sorry, but somebody has to let you in on the news.......

THE NEWS IS IN... BERDUFUSS IS AN IDIOT!!

Hey Archie..care to comment on this info ..why do you think that they are wrong??

.......http://www.americancustomeng.com/small.htm
"We do not offer the small block chevy engine or any other non-transverse engine as a upgrade.

The reasons are:

1 - Weight - The large increase in weight degrades handling greatly

2 - Reliability - Not in the engine but in the transmission. No Fiero transmission is designed for the torque delivered by the small block. The Getrag 5 speed & Muncie 4 Speed are designed for about 200 ft, pounds of torque. The Izuzu 5 speed used on the Iron Duke 4 Cylinder is good for only about 120 Ft. pounds of torque....

3 - Size - Not only the subframe but the chassis needs major modification to fit a small block. Most installations we have seen use solid mounts to keep it from moving.

4 - Emissions - Our kits use current transverse powertrains that meet all current regulations and we show how to connect all emission equipment.

5 - Cooling - Our engine selections normally give over 30 mpg. on the highway and over 20 mpg. in town. Better economy than the 2.8 V6, therefore generating less waste heat that the cooling system needs to get rid of.

If you desire to use a Small Block Engine, purchase a car designed for it.. Corvette, Firebird or the like....

Thats what we did....

THIS SITE WAS UPDATED ON 09-20-02

AMERICAN CUSTOM ENGINEERING
970-259-4156 - 160 BRICE PLACE, DURANGO, COLORADO 81303
ACE Web Page - www.AmericanCustomEng.com

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Hey Archie..care to comment on this info ..why do you think that they are wrong?? .......http://www.americancustomeng.com/small.htm "We do not offer the small block chevy engine or any other non-transverse engine as a upgrade. The reasons are: <blah blah blah a bunch of crap from ACE>

You say you're 49 years old yet you've never heard the expression "Never ask the barber if you need a haircut"??

Everyone's got their own axe to grind, and badmouthing what you don't sell is the best way to advertise what you do sell. Very few people here have actually used an ACE kit to install their 3800s. Wonder why that is?

Did you ever see the PISA page where they raved about how great the Zumalt kit was and how it was the only V8 kit they would sell? Gee, wonder what happened to that?

Do you believe everything you read on the Internet just because it's on a page somewhere?

Dave

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: As usual..you sidestepped the question.. Why didn't you ask your "unnamed source" what the 3.4 crate motor weighed??

Isn't that just precious, look who's calling who no name.

Since you didn't respond to 90% of what I said, we will assume that 90% is correct.

Berdufuss, You crack me up.

Archie

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: As usual..you sidestepped the question.. Why didn't you ask your "unnamed source" what the 3.4 crate motor weighed??

You'd no doubt come back with "the 3.4 is a truck motor and completely different than the 2.8. Now if someone wanted to hang a 2.8 on a fish scale, that would be accurate."

Do your own research. You can call GM and ask shipping weights and included equipment. Buy your own fish scales and do a swap and weigh it your own d@mn self. Given how helpful and insightful you've been here, I look forward to any tech questions you might ask in the future. I'm sure everyone here will be lining up to help.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Why didn't you ask your "unnamed source" what the 3.4 crate motor weighed??

I named my source before, learn to read. Said I got it from a local GM performance shop. Holz Chevy, Franklin WI to be exact. I called them back since you wana be a prick about this whole thing. Asker them bout 3.1 - 3.4 v6 with Intake. They said 345 - 350 lbs. again this puts the numbers right were Dave said. *sigh* your really getting to bore us. Now shoooo go away.

Its getting hard to post without using inappropriate language to describe some attitudes.
I spent six years with a GM dealership, we ordered replacement engines fifty at a time 'cause that was where the price break was.
Please note that I am only talking about one dealership and maybe we got special treatment nobody else did, but all the engines except medium duty truck engines came with oil pans, not that three pounds on the bottom of the engine matter anyway.
I got no dog in this fight, I built exactly what I wanted and am very happy.
I was setting up a cadero swap for a guy with an 84 but after relating crazyd's posts the guy is rethinking perhaps a small block. Probably talk him back into using a cadero as he WANTS an automatic (I just shake my head).

Anyway, thanks Dave, Archie and others who actually posted information, too bad some people had to load all the inbetween with crud.

Granted, but passangers and gas are much closer to the middle than the engine (trunk is only ~6" away from the rear cyl head And I can sure feel them affecting the car in a big way too. (not just on the track, but on the street as well. PS: if you're SPINNING on the bloody street, I concur, STOP driving like a jackass! Spinning is for the exit of turn6 ONLY.)

To answer your question, yeah, I'd relocate the battery, add an inch of rear tyre width, and rip it up!

It's not nothing though, my only point. (but as you've proven, it sure as hell ain't a lot!)

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Hang on a sec here. In case you hadn't noticed, your trunk is on the other side of the axles from the engine. You're comparing rear-chassis weight to mid-chassis weight Ben, for shame! People love to use this comparison, but it just doesn't fly. And as to your other points about weight on a road course, sure it matters when all other factors are equal, but ask yourself, wouldn't you rather compete with a car that has 110 lbs more engine weight but also has three times the power? This seems like a no-brainer to me. Dave

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 11-09-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archie: I'm sorry, but somebody has to let you in on the news....... THE NEWS IS IN... BERDUFUSS IS AN IDIOT!! Hey Archie..care to comment on this info ..why do you think that they are wrong?? .......http://www.americancustomeng.com/small.htm "We do not offer the small block chevy engine or any other non-transverse engine as a upgrade. The reasons are: 1 - Weight - The large increase in weight degrades handling greatly 2 - Reliability - Not in the engine but in the transmission. No Fiero transmission is designed for the torque delivered by the small block. The Getrag 5 speed & Muncie 4 Speed are designed for about 200 ft, pounds of torque. The Izuzu 5 speed used on the Iron Duke 4 Cylinder is good for only about 120 Ft. pounds of torque.... 3 - Size - Not only the subframe but the chassis needs major modification to fit a small block. Most installations we have seen use solid mounts to keep it from moving. 4 - Emissions - Our kits use current transverse powertrains that meet all current regulations and we show how to connect all emission equipment. 5 - Cooling - Our engine selections normally give over 30 mpg. on the highway and over 20 mpg. in town. Better economy than the 2.8 V6, therefore generating less waste heat that the cooling system needs to get rid of. If you desire to use a Small Block Engine, purchase a car designed for it.. Corvette, Firebird or the like.... Thats what we did.... THIS SITE WAS UPDATED ON 09-20-02 AMERICAN CUSTOM ENGINEERING 970-259-4156 - 160 BRICE PLACE, DURANGO, COLORADO 81303 ACE Web Page - www.AmericanCustomEng.com

I e-mailed them about this they simply replied "We werent talking about archie's swap but v-8 swaps all together!" what ever that means.

1.The fact everyone who owns or even driven a V-8 car can attest to this being not true at all

2. It has been proven that tehy can withstand up to around 400hp easily with the right clutch

3. Major modification? Archie's kit doesnt require ANY modification at all to the chassis or subframe. Sure LT1's need them notched but thats not major modification and presents no weakness when done right

4. You can EASILY pass emmisions, if you could why would Archie have sold well over 500 kits? Even on a page a guy from california posted his passing emmissions slip

5. Really that doesnt make any sense what they put but anyway, with Archie's 4 core radiator cooling isnt an issue at all

every other member +102937456
sanburdufuss +0

------------------

--Adam--
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
IM AOL: GTFiero
Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs

Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops

quote Originally posted by artherd: Granted, but passangers and gas are much closer to the middle than the engine (trunk is only ~6" away from the rear cyl head And I can sure feel them affecting the car in a big way too. It's not nothing though, my only point. (but as you've proven, it sure as hell ain't a lot!)

My point was just that it's a simple lever/fulcrum relationship. Stuff that's aft of the rear suspension's centerline (the fulcrum) is acting like a lever in a way that stuff forward of it isn't. THAT is the reason that you don't feel the added weight from the engine in the same way that you feel stuff in the trunk.

Dave

You're right, but you have the pivoit point wrong.

There are two points in question really, the first is the static center of mass (in our cars, just aft of the middle of the car.)

Stuff in the trunk has a longer 'arm' on this lever, but the engine is on the same plane, just closer to the fulcrum.

I don't think this is the thread to get into instantaneous centres of momentum... but that's basically the same thing with acceleration/decel (in 3-space, not just liniar) applied.

You don't instantly 'get saved' just by moving stuff 2 more inches so it's now forward of the axle line, it dosen't work that way. (that will shorten a ~4ft moment arm to about 3'10" though

Enjoy your car Dave. Pop for $3grand later for a Donovan Al block if it bothers ya, if not, so what!

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by crazyd: My point was just that it's a simple lever/fulcrum relationship. Stuff that's aft of the rear suspension's centerline (the fulcrum) is acting like a lever in a way that stuff forward of it isn't. THAT is the reason that you don't feel the added weight from the engine in the same way that you feel stuff in the trunk. Dave

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I like the way certain people say a Getrag can't hold up to a 300HP V8, but it'll work fine behind a 300HP V6. I hope Phil and Skitime realize they're driving time bombs with their 3800SC 5-speed conversions. Even a stock 240HP is more than the Getrag was designed for. Looks like they're gonna blow up any minute now.

The issue about the transaxle is torque ..not HP.. Get that thought into your head Until you understand that basic fact your input to this issue is not needed..
I am sure that SkiTime looked into all the ramifications, including the fact that he was swapping in a "stock V6" to replace his old motor.
I don't think that he will ever abuse his car, which would put his transaxle to the test. And I don't expect him to defend his swap. He has no reason to, as he is not marketing a "kit" to do this swap. Archie is.
Now like it or not.. I am asking questions about this swap. I have NOT gotten any straight answers from "Archie" just flack.. The rest of his "posse" have jumped in to speak for him, answer for him, and defend him ..but "HE" skirts the issues.. And when they say something that is not right, and proven wrong, they all ignore the fact that they were wrong and go on to tangents..
I am going to address the issue of "scales" again..So what if they are used to weigh large fish.. they are out there..available ..and would put to rest the exact weight difference of one swap..Why hasn't this been done before by you, Archie..and why are you reluctant to agree to do it now?? Instead you try to ridicule it and try to say that they are not accurate..Yeah right.. If you think we are bad about wieghing things.. you should see a bunch of angry fishermen arguing about the weight of the fish that they caught ..
Archie..simple question here. What SBC engines are EPA legal to swap into a Fiero ?? Just because something was done 500 times does not make it legal to do it ..otherwise, robbing a bank would certainly be legal ..Littering comes to mind also.. it is illegal to toss litter onto the HiWay.. just because 500 people don't care and do it anyway does not make it a legal act, but when was the last time you heard about anyone being charged with it?? BUT it is still illegal..
Now back to the weight issue.. If you take the numbers that were provided. And add what the adapters, water pump, new radiator, exta coolant, oil, ect ( Read: all the things that need to be added to complete this swap ) weigh to those figures- what is the final answer??? AND is it legal to use those engines in this swap?..Or are we regulated to older heavier ones? Remember that it has to be a previously approved motor from a newer make and model similar to the old application in order to be used as a replacement engine.. you are doing this swap "In House"..and marketing it as a "kit" so Archie..what is the answer here?

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by artherd: You're right, but you have the pivoit point wrong. I don't think this is the thread to get into instantaneous centres of momentum...

It's a discussion I'd like to have, Ben, but maybe over a cold frosty one next time I'm out on the left coast? Theory is one thing, but reality is the ultimate equalizer.

quote Enjoy your car Dave. Pop for $3grand later for a Donovan Al block if it bothers ya, if not, so what!

I wouldn't change the block in my car even if it were FREE! Cylinder hones and bores are trickier on aluminum blocks, if they're possible at all. As far as I'm concerned the additional weight back there just improves my rear traction. I like the way it handles better than my stocker '88 GT. Nobody has to believe that, but I stand behind it, and anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to visit me in Chicago for a ride. The only thing this car needs is a set of 5-point harnesses. I can't wait to get it to Road America in the spring.

Dave

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: I will make a deal with all of you..( as you all started the "Name calling" and Jabs First..) If you All stop..then I will stop too..( and this IS the first time that I disrespected anyone on this Forum and I do apologize to you, Formula88, as it is true, I picked on you as your post left you wide open.. Archie and CrazyD have been making fun of my screen name throughout this issue and you did your share at first too...I figure that if it is good enough for you all to do....Then I might as well join in..after all..It is all in fun...right??? So..If no one likes it done to them, then lets just all act like adults from now on. Because I can dish it out better than most...I just choose not to...

Archie..you must be getting forgetful in your old age...this is exactly what I said regarding "Flaming"

quote Originally posted by crazyd: As far as I'm concerned the additional weight back there just improves my rear traction. I like the way it handles better than my stocker '88 GT. Nobody has to believe that, but I stand behind it, and anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to visit me in Chicago for a ride. The only thing this car needs is a set of 5-point harnesses. I can't wait to get it to Road America in the spring. Dave

Hey Dave, Some people are just not going to believe the results of a good swap and car setup similar to what we have. But should the day come when we should meet the non-believers on a road course, you and I both know who will have the last laugh!!!

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: The issue about the transaxle is torque ..not HP.. Get that thought into your head Until you understand that basic fact your input to this issue is not needed..

Oh, my input is not needed? Who ever said I was addressing YOU with that remark? Talk about vanity. You do know that torque and horsepower is a simple mathematical relationship, right? That at a given rpm, if 2 engines have the same HP, they have the same torque? The 3800SC is a torquey motor, designed to put out it's torque at low rpms, like a V8. The 3800SC is likely more stressing on a transmission than a Northstar V8 due to the torque curves. But that's getting off the point of weight.

quote Now like it or not.. I am asking questions about this swap. I have NOT gotten any straight answers from "Archie" just flack.. The rest of his "posse" have jumped in to speak for him, answer for him, and defend him ..but "HE" skirts the issues.. And when they say something that is not right, and proven wrong, they all ignore the fact that they were wrong and go on to tangents..

Ok, so the official shipping weights from General Motors aren't good enough? You'd prefer the fish scale method? If you're disputing GM, now, you're just illustrating you have no interest in getting answers, just continuing the argument.

quote I am going to address the issue of "scales" again..So what if they are used to weigh large fish.. they are out there..available ..and would put to rest the exact weight difference of one swap..Why hasn't this been done before by you, Archie..and why are you reluctant to agree to do it now?? Instead you try to ridicule it and try to say that they are not accurate..Yeah right.. If you think we are bad about wieghing things.. you should see a bunch of angry fishermen arguing about the weight of the fish that they caught ..

This has been covered. If you want it done this way, do it yourself.

quote Archie..simple question here. What SBC engines are EPA legal to swap into a Fiero ?? Just because something was done 500 times does not make it legal to do it ..otherwise, robbing a bank would certainly be legal ..Littering comes to mind also.. it is illegal to toss litter onto the HiWay.. just because 500 people don't care and do it anyway does not make it a legal act, but when was the last time you heard about anyone being charged with it?? BUT it is still illegal..

Not everyone lives in the People's Republic of California. And yes, this question has been answered before, too. It is possible to get an exemption from Federal Emissions complaince, legally. Also, Federal requirements are much more lenient than California. Most places only care if you pass the sniffer test. Also, you can get the car certified in CA, you just have to jump through a few hoops. Archie has posted a passing California emissions test of one of his V8's, so it can be done. Any L98, LM1, LT1 swap will be easily emissions legal, since they are emissions legal engines to begin with. The ZZ4 and others can be made emissions legal with the addition of the proper equipment. Even Dave's car has catalytic converters, and I'd be interested to see what his emissions specs are. Don't forget, GM even offers emissions complaint 350 swaps for 3rd Gen F-bodies. They are based on some of the same engines Archie uses.

quote Now back to the weight issue.. If you take the numbers that were provided. And add what the adapters, water pump, new radiator, exta coolant, oil, ect ( Read: all the things that need to be added to complete this swap ) weigh to those figures- what is the final answer???

Well, the engine weights from GM include water pumps, so that's already taken into account. The adapter weight was listed by Archie earlier. The extra coolant and oil? Ok, an extra quart of oil, and maybe a gallon of coolant, at most. There's maybe 5lbs. And you'd have to check on this, but I believe Archie's replacement radiator is aluminum, so it's most likely LIGHTER than stock. Everything still points to Dave's numbers being in the ballpark (within engineering tolerance).

quote AND is it legal to use those engines in this swap?..Or are we regulated to older heavier ones? Remember that it has to be a previously approved motor from a newer make and model similar to the old application in order to be used as a replacement engine.. you are doing this swap "In House"..and marketing it as a "kit" so Archie..what is the answer here?

Already answered. See above.

You know, even if you don't get the answers you want, it should be plainly obvious you won't get them. If that's a conspiracy, so be it. Continuing to ask the same questions over and over because you don't like the answers won't get you a different answer. And if you want to hear from Archie specifically, call him on his toll free 800 number and ask these questions to him directly.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid:Hey Dave, Some people are just not going to believe the results of a good swap and car setup similar to what we have. But should the day come when we should meet the non-believers on a road course, you and I both know who will have the last laugh!!!

I have sat back and read this post for 5 pages now, and not a whole lot has been accomplished. Formula88, I would just like to correct one statement that you made, otherwise everything else you said was right.
The ZZ4 cannot be made smog legal in California, because it was never installed in a production automobile, by GM. Living in California I have gone through this.

SanBerdueFiero, I think you have made some outrageous statements, and have asked for some ludicrous tasks to be performed by other people, so that you can have an answer to a question, that has been answered. People have posted weight slips, of cars before and after swaps, to show the weight gain from the entire project. (Archies previous posts)
Dave hasn't gone out of his way, to start this thread and give out information about the weight gain between his stock 88 and his 88 ZZ430 car. You on the other hand when off on a tangent about the scales, and how they could be 20 lbs. off. If you really think than those 20 lbs. would mean make that my difference in handling, I think you need to get a life. You have heard statements from California Kid Dave and Archie Formula88 and others, and now me, telling you that the handling of the car with a V8 installed, is not going to make that much difference.
You have chosen not to believe what they have said, but you are talking from absolutely no experience. You need to go out and find someone with a V8 car and take a ride. Experience that handling for yourself.

There are a lot of people on this board that have of lot of experience, and you have heard from many of them, and have chosen to ignore everything that has been said. I have read on this post about how the transmissions cannot handle over 200 ft. pounds of torque, again you are talking from no experience. Their are a lot of V8 cars, running over 400 horsepower and 400 ft. lb. of torque. According to you and some others, they should not be running at all. You really should get some firsthand information before you start saying things you can not backup. Asking questions, is one thing, but arguing with the people that have all the experience, is not very intelligent.

I have driven my Fiero for fourteen years, and have gone through five engine swaps. The latest being very similar to Dave's ZZ430. I find it to be the best handling Fiero that I have owned. Mine runs 460 HP and 450 ft.lb of torque, and I do not baby it. The way it runs right now, I wouldn't change a thing.

Go out and get some experience within a V8 car before arguing with people that own them.
Just my $.02

Bob...

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Now like it or not.. I am asking questions about this swap. I have NOT gotten any straight answers from "Archie" just flack..

Berdufuss, you just don't get it do you? Are you really so stupid that you can't pick up on what's going on?

Evidently I have to explain it to you. Now sit down little boy, class is in session..... pay attention & you might learn something.

If you had been paying attention, you would realize that the only question I've asked you is asking for your real name. Now why would I ask that? , Am I gonna come kick your a$$..... Nope...... I wouldn't walk across the street to talk to you. I want your name so that I can make sure that you never are able to buy a V-8 kit from me.

You see the neat thing about doing what I do is that I don't have to do business with A$$holes. If this was Burger King, the counter person would have to take your crap and kiss your butt if you walked in to order a burger. BUT THIS ISN'T BURGER KING. I have the option to not do business with a$$holes and I had determined that you were an A$$hole way back, long before this thread started.

Well that's it..... pretty simple isn't it?

Go back and read it a couple more times.... see if you can understand what I've said.

Since you're such a smart person, how come you haven't figured this out on your own?

Berdufuss, you crack me up.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-10-2002).]

quote Originally posted by rgeeinc: Formula88, I would just like to correct one statement that you made, otherwise everything else you said was right. The ZZ4 cannot be made smog legal in California, because it was never installed in a production automobile, by GM. Living in California I have gone through this.

Actually, my remarks were geared more towards the 49 State Federal Emissions. I know a V8 can be done legally in CA, but it would probably have to be an OEM engine, like the L98 or LT1. CA indeed is it's own little world with regards to hot rods and emissions laws. It's much easier in the rest of the country (at least for now).

Thanks for the comments!

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--------------Forever In My Heart----------------
Jack Daniel Miller --- Dec. 29, 1925 - Oct. 14, 2002
Ruby Cantrell Miller - Jan. 20, 1932 - Aug. 31, 2002
It won't rain all the time. The Sky won't fall forever,
And tho' the night seems long, Your tears won't fall forever.

quote Originally posted by rgeeinc: .....Bob...

I was not asking what others thought about this swap ..If they thought that their cars handled to their satisfaction or if they would do it again or not..Your input IS appreciated but you did not add anything to clear this mess up, but to say that you agreed with the "posse" ( The group of people who dote on Archie's every word and take what he says as Gospel, and attack anyone who asks the hard questions that Archie should have answers to already...) ..and it cracks me up to hear that I should do my swap then decide for myself..

....Now to get specific.. In my swap I need to add the weight of an Auto Transaxle ( which adds to the weight on the rear end..) I also want a daily driver too that I won't have to spend time fixing issues. Issues that could have been taken care of by asking the right questions..AND getting the answers to my questions that would help me..

... And please refresh my memory because I am to tired of looking back to see just who is speaking for Archie again.. Are you not the one who said that you would smog your car in Nevada and and drive it in Ca? Take it from me..that will not work unless you live in Nevada and are visiting here in Ca As your drivers license will tell all when it is run through the computer..

Now to the Torque vs HP issue.. yes they are related..but the Torque in a Forced Induction motor is dependent on the rpm of the motor.. Not like in a large cubic inch V8, low rpm, massive torque motor that the torque is always there ..all the time,every time no matter what.... So..the issue of torque on drive line parts is not as critical with the 3800 SC swap for normal every day driving, But I agree that in a pedal to the metal situation that both of these engines will overtax a transaxle that was designed for less power..

..You can all breath easier as I have really grown tired of this ..and decided to buy an "86+" convertible vette ( with an Auto) and keep my Fiero stock and enjoy driving both cars the way that they were engineered from the factory.
So.. I have no need for straight answers any more. and All you members of "Archie's posse" can wait for the next person who wants to get some straight answers from Archie, And you can go through this fiasco all over again.. But the fact is that I have reached the point that it is not necessary for me to participate in this forum as I have all the information that I need to enjoy my Fiero and will enjoy it to the max.... I am out of here.... thank you to all who answered with straight facts

This was added after I read Archie's post.. You must have known early on that I would never buy anything from you for two reasons.. one) to do the swap I did not need your manual or your help or your kit.. and two) I don't think much of you as a person and would never put any of my money into you little hands..

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-10-2002).]

Hey Dave, you're on, I'll buy!

With a mostly stock suspension, it may infact have helped you under power to plant all that hp

PS: almost all aluminum blocks I know of are iron sleeved, so they bore, and can overbore .030" just like any iron block.*

*= There are some exceptions. Acura's NSX actually embeds carbon composite fibres in the bore area of it's aluminum blocks, so there is no steel sleve, but there is a comprable 'high stregenth/wear-resistant' area.

Best!
Ben

quote Originally posted by crazyd: I wouldn't change the block in my car even if it were FREE! Cylinder hones and bores are trickier on aluminum blocks, if they're possible at all. As far as I'm concerned the additional weight back there just improves my rear traction. I like the way it handles better than my stocker '88 GT. Nobody has to believe that, but I stand behind it, and anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to visit me in Chicago for a ride. The only thing this car needs is a set of 5-point harnesses. I can't wait to get it to Road America in the spring. Dave

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

I think Crazy Dave must have gasoline in his veins, because his posts always become flame wars!

It has been stated many times, but thanks for the numbers. I hope to post my turbo 3.4 DOHC weight numbers soon. I can also weigh my stock 86 GT for comparison. And that will be with four corner race scales to quiet the trolls. Thanks again for the info Dave.

Matt

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86 GT, 5-Speed
87 GT, 3.4l DOHC Turbo

quote Originally posted by Berdufuss: ..and decided to buy an "86+" convertible vette ( with an Auto)

You have made a lot of people real happy.

quote Originally posted by Berdufuss: .. I am out of here....

And even more people are happy to hear that.

Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

Archie

Now, tell us what you REALLY think. ;-)

quote Originally posted by California Kid:

ROTFLMAO
California Kid, Your too much